Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference

In an advertisement on Bethel’s website is an upcoming “prophetic conference” – Piercing The Darkness – to be held at Bill Johnson’s Bethel Church February 23 – 25, 2011.  Featured speakers are Bob Jones, Joseph Garlington, Graham Cooke and Bethel’s own Kris Vallotton.  This blog post will focus on dangerous false prophet Bob Jones.

Yes, false prophet.  I do not state these words lightly.  This is stated not just because some of his “prophetic words” with specific parameters have proven false – even though this is true.  It is said because, in addition, some of his “words” are downright anti-Biblical, not just extra-Biblical.  So, who is Bob Jones?   Here’s the blurb from the upcoming conference:

“When only seven years old and walking on a dirt road in Arkansas; the Arch Angel [sic] Gabriel appeared to Bob Jones on a white horse and blew a double silver trumpet in his face.  He then threw an old bull skin mantle at Bob’s feet.  Although fearful at the time he ran, however, many years later he returned to pick up that old mantle which is that of a Seer Prophet.  Bob Jones is known as a contemporary prophet with a great love for the Lord Jesus and His truth.  His prophesies have spanned over four decades as the Lord has enabled him to foretell earthquakes, tidal waves, comets and weather patterns.  Like Daniel who functioned at an incredible level, Bob has often told leaders their dreams and experiences, as well as their interpretation.

 “After his death experience in 1975 God sent him back to minister to church leadership and reach the multitudes with His love, truth and equipping the saints with understanding of the spiritual gifts.  God promised Bob that he would see the beginning of one billion souls coming into the kingdom in one great wave of the end time harvest.

 “Bob moves with a clear revelatory gifting, accompanied by gifts of healing and miracles.” [all as per original]

Beyond a Shadow of a Drought

Back in the mid 1980’s to early ‘90’s Bob Jones was affiliated with Mike Bickle and Kansas City Fellowship.  He, along with Paul Cain were named as “Kansas City Prophets” who provided “foundational revelation” regarding IHOP according to Mike Bickle.Taped copies of some of their conversations were distributed and these were transcribed and published by a few ministries which exposed some of these false prophesies and false doctrines. 

The late Ernie Gruen put out a document which compiled much of this material; and, this document was posted online in pdf form by Tricia Booth (formerly Tillin) with additional comments (in red) added.  It is titled “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)” and it can be viewed on Tricia Booth’s site.[1]

On pages 41-42 (“A Fabricated Drought”)[2] is a report of a “prophetic word” of a drought purported to have occurred for three months from “the end of May” until “August 23rd” 1983 as a “sign in the heavens” in Kansas City, MO.  The August 23rd date was to be when the rains would come very definitively as confirmation.  Yet, a simple search of the National Weather Service and the local newspaper proved otherwise. Incidentally, this “drought” is still spoken of as fulfilled prophecy by Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in their “Encountering Jesus” series asserting that the actual drought began on July 1st and lasted till October 11th.  Bickle’s claim is that they “didn’t get all the details right” initially which may have something to do with the fact that June actually had higher than normal rainfall that year.  Question: why would the confirmation date of August 23rd (actual rainfall on the 23rd was .32”) be right in the middle of this “prophetic” drought?  Wouldn’t the confirmation date be at the end instead?  This “Encountering Jesus” series is available as a free download. [see Disc 4 @ 30:40 – 42:11][3]  I’ll let the reader view the rest of this document which contains quite a bit of eye opening info.

Apparently, some have tried to discredit Ernie Gruen and his report claiming that he later recanted; however, the guys over at The Grey Coats were able to contact Gruen himself; and, in the ensuing correspondence he denied these allegations.[4] 

The New Breed of Elected Seeds 

Referenced and quoted in this document is a Kansas City Fellowship tape titled “Visions & Revelations” containing conversations of Mike Bickle and Bob Jones from Fall 1988 (denoted as “F88”).  This same tape is referenced and transcribed by Jewel Grewe (formerly van der Merwe) in one of her Discernment Newsletters from September, 1990.  Here’s a partial transcription:

“[They] will possess the Spirit without measure – for they are the best of all the generations that have ever been upon the face of the earth.  And the best of all generations are those ELECTED SEEDS that will glorify Christ in the last days. …they will move into things of the supernatural that no one has ever moved in before.  Every miracle, sign and wonder – they’ll move in the power that Christ did.… …They themselves will be that generation that’s raised up to death itself underneath their feet and to glorify Christ in every way and the church that is raising up in the government [NAR] will be the head and the covering for them…the chosen generation of history that will go beyond all the others in power…. …this generation of the young people that are coming are going to see the beginning of this world-wide NEW ORDER. …it is going to change the expression of Christianity in the earth in a generation.”  [5] [Caps as per original; emphasis added.  See also see pp 67-69 of Gruen document.]

In the June, 1990 Discernment Newsletter, this same tape was referred to yet again: 

“those ELECTED SEEDS… …will move into the things of the supernatural that no one has ever seen in the  Bible – they’ll move in it consistently. …they themselves will be that generation that’s raised up to put death itself underneath their feet. …a Church that has reached the full maturity of the god-man!” [6] [Caps as per original; emphasis added.  See also see pp 59, 68-69 of Gruen document]

According to Jones’ words here, these “elected seeds,” this “chosen generation,” will put death “underneath their feet” which contradicts Scripture as this is what Jesus Christ will do [I Corinthians 15:24-27] NOT any part of the “Church.”  Individual Christians will NOT conquer death as it is Christ Himself who “gives us the victory” [I Corinthians 15:57 NIV].  And, quite obviously, we DO NOT ever reach “full maturity of the god-man!”  This is Manifested Sons of God (MSoG) teaching which is heretical and anti-Biblical since Christians do not inherit our glorified bodies [I Corinthians 15:42-55] until the Rapture and/or the end of the age after Jesus returns (depending upon one’s view of eschatology) and we are NEVER to be ‘god-men’ as Jesus Christ is the unique, one-and-only God-man.  MSoG has been discussed in the Bill Johnson’s ‘Born Again’ Jesus, Part II blog post [starting at footnote 33].

Another name for these “elected seeds” is “New Breed.”  In a DVD available at Rick Joyner’s MorningStar Ministries[7] titled “Todd Bentley Healing and Impartation Service, 08-08-08” [From August 8, 2008 obviously] Bob Jones defines this New Breed.  Here’s a YouTube video[8] which provides the first bit of it.  The full transcription (with some repetitions omitted) of Bob Jones follows:

The New Breed is just simply the body of Christ is gonna grow up.  …I don’t believe you’re in a revival which God does it all.  It’s beautiful light and when He leaves it, it dies again. What He’s doing now is bringing you to a level of maturity where you grow up.  And, if you grow up you’ll never regress, you’ll continue progress year by year.   So, what he’s talking about is; the New Breed is this: it’s Romans 1:4 – the spirit of holiness.  So, for years I tried to get understanding of what the spirit of holiness is for it’s different than the Holy Spirit.

So, last Saturday, he spoke to me about a New Breed of people.  And, he said, ‘I don’t want to get in front of them, I want you to get behind them.  They’ll be close to the ages of 25 and 40… this is who the New Breed is.’

…In this trance I went into at 3 o’clock last Saturday I could ask questions – I began to ask questions.  ‘What is this New Breed?’ The New Breed will be those that are partaker of the divine nature.  As you begin to grow into the likeness of Christ you’re gonna begin to partake of the divine nature.  And, once you begin to grow up in that-away you’ll continue to mature until you look like Christ all over the world.  Jesus was one person.  Now get ready for Jesuses [sic; plural of “Jesus”] all over the world.  Then, he began to tell me that those who have partaker of his divine nature [sic] shall be a friend with God – John  15:15.  And, those that are a friend with God – they can ask him a question and he’ll answer ‘em…It’s time that when you ask questions that you begin to get answers.

So, that divine nature is a friend.  It’s really Paul’s prayer.  I believe God is answering Paul’s prayer in Galatians 4:19 ‘I travail for you, I pray for you until Christ be formed in you.’  There are Christians on the earth now that are growing in maturity to where Christ is being formed in you.  If Christ is being formed in you then when you speak you’ll speak as Christ did.  And, you’ll have also authority in this.  Then, in this he was saying ‘this then will be a generation that will do nothing apart from the Father.’  So, I think the main thing you’re getting ready for is a generation for the fathers to come back in.  And, I think the first one that’s gonna come back is Papa.  For Jesus came back over …2000 years ago, The Holy Spirit came over 100 years ago, this last revelation is who your Daddy is.  And, I think this is what’s getting ready – is Papa’s getting ready to reveal his family.  And, His family, what He lacks in you is what was in His Son.  So, there are those who’s gonna begin to shine like the Son.  And, that divine nature will have authority over all the works of the enemy.  So, we’re in a key time. 

I’ve been back here 33 years today.  33 years ago I stood before the Lord.   I looked into His eyes.  To be honest with ya, I didn’t want to come back because it had been so hard.  But, He asked… He told me,” if you’ll go back you’ll see the greatest wave of all time in evangelism.  I’m gonna bring over a billion youth into myself.”  Now, these that’s between 25 and 40 are youth leaders.  Getting ready for a birthing of youth beyond anything you’ve ever seen before.  And, their main job will be maturin’ youth.  So, literally, those that are gonna be youth leaders have gotta have a greater commitment than anybody else because this youth is the ones that’s really gonna take it to every corner in the earth.  And, what he’s after now is the 25 to 40’s which are harvesters.  He wants to bring in the harvesters for the harvest.  The next 3 years is gonna be harvesting harvesters.  For, the church is not ready for a harvest yet — she has not got enough people to harvest it.  But, within 3 years you will have.  And, those that have that authority of Jesus Christ — youth are looking for an absolute – it’s in the Cross, in the blood of Jesus Christ.  So, get ready.  Things have changed.  The New Breed – let’s get behind them.  For they’re gonna bring the youth behind them.  It’s a change of times.  The torch is being transferred from the old generation to this 25 to 40.  This is the New Breed. [9] [emphasis added]

Coming into that Divine Nature of Jesus?

This “word” above is also posted on Bob Jones’ site in a truncated version[10].  While there are many things that can be discussed, I wish to focus primarily on two: 1) the “divine nature;” and, 2) Paul’s prayer in Galatians 4:19.  Going back for a moment to the Gruen document mentioned above, here’s a quote of Bob Jones:

“You that are here now, you’ll be moving into the fivefold ministries, but your children will be moving into the ministries of perfection, coming into that divine nature of Jesus Christ…” [11] [emphasis added]

First, absolutely NO ONE has a divine nature except for the Godhead.  We are born in sin and the sin nature never leaves us.  However, all true Christians are “partakers of the divine nature” as we all have the indwelling Holy Spirit.  Here are the verses which speak of this in II Peter 1:2-4:

2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [NKJV]

Matthew Henry’s Commentary explains verse 4 above:

“…Those who receive the promises of the gospel partake of the divine nature.  They are renewed in the spirit of their mind, after the image of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness; their hearts are set for God and his service…” [12] [emphasis in original]

And, the NIV Study Bible text note for verse 4 provides further explanation:

“…Does not indicate that Christians become divine in any sense, but only that we are indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17).  Our humanity and his deity, as well as the human personality and the divine, remain distinct and separate. [13]

Birthing New Doctrine

Second, Paul’s prayer of Galatians 4:19 was specifically for the Galatians who were being influenced by the Judaizers who believed that circumcision was necessary for salvation [14]  (see vv 2:11-16).  Here’s the full context of this passage:

17They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.  18But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you.  19My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I have doubts about you! [Galatians 4:17-20 NKJV]

According to Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, there is a Jewish idiom: “If one teaches the son of his neighbor the law, the Scripture reckons this the same as though he had begotten him.”[15]  Apparently, this is what the Apostle Paul was referring to in describing himself as being in “labor” (or “travailing” in KJV) for “my dear children.”  Presumably, the Galatians would be familiar with this idiomatic phrase; so, the point would be made.  [This metaphor is also used in I Corinthians 4:14-15.]  Matthew Henry says: 

“…and the great thing which he was in so much pain about, and which he was so earnestly desirous of, was not so much that they might affect him as that Christ might be formed in them, that they might become Christians indeed, and be more confirmed and established in the faith of the gospel….” [16] 

Bob Jones, on the other hand, in the New Breed “word” is using the Scripture passages referred to directly and indirectly to support his “birthing the man-child” doctrine (see pp 11, 124-125 of Gruen report and the Birthpangs article “The Birth of the Manchild”[17]) which is Manifested Sons of God (MSoG) teaching.  This is what he means by “’Jesuses’ all over the world.”         

For Jones’ “prophetic word” regarding the “harvesting harvesters” above to come true (the “next 3 years” from 08/08/08), he has until August of this year.  However, he did say that “this year” would be the “kingdom of God.”  Do I presume this means the consummation of the Kingdom of God will be this year?  This was spoken in his “Shepherd’s Rod” of 2010.  “Shepherd’s Rods” are “prophetic words” he receives on the Day of Atonement each year for the following calendar year.  This is not on Easter day – no, this is on the Jewish Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur (September 17th for 2010), in which Jones gets his “words.”  From the YouTube video of the 2010 “Rod”[18]:

“…make way – not a way – make way for the kingdom of God is coming this year…It’s coming forth out of you this year.  It’s gonna come by faith, comin’ right out of you like an effervescence.   [19]

This sounds like more of the “man-child” doctrine.  That was the first of three parts to this particular “word.”

Casting off Restraints

The second part of the 2010 “Shepherd’s Rod” is to:

“…Cast off all restraints.  For this is the year to soar.  This is the year to go up; this is the year to have those experiences…” [20]

Yes, he wants you to jump into the supernatural realm without regard to the possibility you may be going into the demonic.  This is the sort of thing hyper-charismaticism promotes and Bill Johnson furthers this cause with quotes like the following in his book When Heaven Invades Earth. Talk about circular logic:

“…What do I trust most, my ability to be deceived or His ability to keep me?  And why do you think He gave us the Comforter?  He knew His ways would make us uncomfortable first.” [21]

This reminds me of the testimony of Peter Lanz (a pseudonym to protect his identity), a former occultist and Temple Master in the “Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn,” which was quoted in the Misplaced Trust, part II article [at footnote 23]:

“‘I was taught in ritual magick how to go to different planes of existence outside the physical body…I could create a realm there in which I could practice ritual magick and perfect my magical skills.  What I did on the physical plane was what I practiced on the astral plane through creative visualizations.  Through my will and imagination, I made things happen on the physical plane.  As above, so below! This ritual magick is a manifestation of the power of your will.’” [22] [bolding added]

God takes a Mulligan?

In the third aspect of Jones’ 2010 Shepherd’s Rod he claims he was told to go back to his 2008 Shepherd’s Rod[23] because there had “been a delay” and that God said to “redo it this year” and “several” of “those things” are “going to come forth.”[24]  Does this mean God was confused back in 2008 with regard to the timing of these events and that God took a Mulligan in an attempt to get it right in 2011?

No, God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33).

One of the things prophesied in 2008 was a marked increase of “food poisoning and tainted provisions.”[25]  I could be wrong; but, I don’t recall that being in the news; so, do I presume this will happen this calendar year?  Jones did not specifically mention this.

A New Breed of Apostles and More Grandiose “Words”

Jones also claims in one of his “prophetic words” from November 2008 that there will be an “entirely new apostolic government in place by 2012“[26]:

“…But now we are about to see a restoration of the apostolic – true apostles are arising.”        

“…These apostles will not be appointed by man, but by God….” [27]

Does this mean the current “apostles” such as C. Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce, et cetera, are false apostles rather than “true apostles” and that they were appointed by man and NOT by God? 

“You can’t persecute the anointing and the glory of God or you’ll miss it.  These apostles will speak to nations and cause a shift in the natural and spiritual.  Revival will break out and new regions will be changed as the Lord establishes new governmental order.  This is not a man thing…this is a God thing! [28]

This future causing of a “shift in the natural and spiritual” reminds me, once again, of the “as above, so below” Peter Lanz refers to above.

“…We will see an entirely new apostolic government in place by 2012.  At this time, we will see the Church being put together and growing into a habitation for the Spirit of God: “…in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” (Ephesians 2:21-22).” [29]

I will comment on the Scripture reference above in just a bit as Jones uses this passage in another “word” below.  Also, in this particular “prophecy” he proclaims that Roe vs.Wade will be overturned[30].  That’s a rather tall order, I’d say.

Round Temple Made of Burnt and Living Stones

In another YouTube video is a “word” regarding a “new” sword of the Spirit[31].  Does this supplement or does it take the place of the current Sword of the Spirit – the Word of God?  While the beginning is troubling enough, it’s the latter part I wish to discuss.  Here’s a partial transcript:

“For as we’ve gone through the things that we have, these people the Lord is getting ready to use…these burnt stones that’s been burned into the body of Christ are getting ready to be built into the temple of living stones so that they can cohabitate with Papa in the spirit — Ephesians 2:22.  So, get ready for a temple to be built now that no flood, no storm can blow down ‘cause it will be a round templeIt’ll be literally like an elevator right into the heavens to where people can go and come literally as [sic] will to begin a relationship in the heavenly realm.   And begin to get the words for themselves.   I believe that our main job is to equip a people that can outgrow us and replace us.   When we have people we’ve trained go passed us, then our life is fruitful.” [32]

First, let’s go to the Ephesians verses and put them in proper context:

19Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. [Ephesians 2:19-22 NKJV; see also I Peter 2:4-8]

The Apostle Paul is explaining that those of the Church at Ephesus are, because of their faith, a part of the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.  Jesus Himself, as the “chief cornerstone” (see Isaiah 28:16; I Peter 2:7), is the bedrock of our faith with the 1st century apostles and prophets providing the remainder of this foundation.  And, once a foundation is laid another is not laid overtop.  The foundation is completed.  We, then, metaphorically are built on top of this foundation as Paul is illustrating to the Ephesian Church.  This includes ALL Christians from the beginning of time [see Hebrews 11, etc.] until the present.  From Matthew Henry’s Commentary:

“…The church is compared to a city…It is also compared to a house, and every converted sinner is one of the domestics, one of the family, a servant and a child in God’s house. In v. 20 the church is compared to a building.  The apostles and prophets are the foundation of that building…Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone. In him both Jews and Gentiles meet, and constitute one church; and Christ supports the building by His strength…[believers] become a sacred society, in which there is much communion between God and his people, as in the temple, they worshipping and serving him…Thus the building, for the nature of it, is a temple, a holy temple; for the church is the place which God hath chosen to put his name there…Not only the universal church is called the temple of God, but particular churches; and even every true believer is a living temple…God dwells in all believers now, they having become the temple of God through the operations of the blessed Spirit, and his dwelling with them now is an earnest of their dwelling together with him to eternity.” [33]

This is the meaning of the Ephesians passages.  Now, what is Bob Jones speaking of?  While he appears to be speaking figuratively, he states the “temple to be built” will be “a round temple.”  How can a metaphorical temple be round in a physical sense?  Or, is there a symbolic meaning of a “round tower;” and, if so, what is it? 

His “word” is rather confusing especially with regard to the two “literally” remarks.  How can this “round temple” – which appears to be referring to Christians figuratively by the context of the first part of this “word” – be “literally like an elevator?”  Did he mean to say “figuratively” rather than “literally?”  And, do individuals “literally” go up and down this “elevator” or “round tower” to the heavenly realm or was this really meant metaphorically?  Either way, how do Christians enter the heavenly realm at will?   This reminds me, yet again, of the testimony of former occultist Peter Lanz above.  

As for the last two sentences of the “word,” these seem to point to the “New Breed.”

While it’s true the Church of living stones – the temple, the collective body of Christ – is still being built, it’s only unfinished because not all have made it into God’s kingdom of believers just yet (II Peter 3:9).  However, all those who are currently in the Body of Christ, the living and the dead, are part of this temple.  On the other hand, Bob Jones claims these “burnt stones” are “getting ready to be built into the temple of living stones;” consequently, if we interpret this symbolically using Scripture, these individuals are not quite yet believers and not yet part of the Church.  However, Jones says prior to this at the very beginning of this “word” that they’ve “been burned into the body.”  So, which is it? Most importantly, given that we are new creatures in Christ (II Corinthians 5:17), why would “burnt stones” be an appropriate description for believers?  This, once again, is contradictory to Scripture.

Since all Christians are living stones (even deceased Christians) figuratively speaking, what are Jones’ burnt stones?  Stones are not burnt for the construction of buildings (it’s not necessary and would weaken them); however, bricks are.  Bricks are made from clay or shale and are  heated or “burned” to nearly 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.  (Some Old Testament era bricks were made from mud instead.)  Is Jones speaking of bricks when he says “burnt stones?” 

All versions of the Temple were made of stone (God-made material) and not brick (man-made) which is why Christians are referred to as living stones.  However, there was one well known structure in the Old Testament which was made of brick: the infamous Tower of Babel (see Genesis 11).   The Tower of Babel[34] was said to be built as a ziggurat.  Most artists’ renditions depict it as round even though it likely had a square base.  Many believe the EU Parliament building in Strasbourg (the Louise Weiss Building) is modeled after Pieter Brueghel’s 1563 painting[35] of a round Tower of Babel (much like the poster shown at the hyperlink).

Jones’ structure would be a mixture of “burnt stones” (bricks?) and living stones.  Is this some sort of hybrid Tower of Babel?  Probably not; but, I’d like a more plausible answer.  Maybe this is expecting too much as this whole “word” is confusing, contradictory and nonsensical.

Perhaps Jones is speaking of a modern day Jacob’s ladder (Genesis 28:11-12) with the elevator as metaphor.  However, given that Jesus is our mediator and symbolically our “ladder,” it’s curious why He is not mentioned in this “prophecy” at all.  Even if this is what this “word” is about, that still doesn’t explain any of the other items mentioned above.

Bob Jones: False Prophet

Bob Jones is a false prophet in any and every sense of the term.  His predictive “prophecies” have largely failed, his forthtelling “words” take Scripture out of its proper context, and these “prophecies” are many times not just extra-Biblical but downright anti-Biblical as illustrated above.  Yet, unfortunately, Jones seems to be the backdrop for much of hyper-charismaticism.  Or, his presence lurks in the background.

In the Signs That Make You Wonder article there’s a “prophecy” yet to be fulfilled regarding “Breakthrough Angel” even though it was said to occur “soon” from the 2006 date of this “word” (content beginning at footnote [15]).   I suppose it depends on one’s definition of “soon.”  In addition, documented and analyzed is Jones’ Breaker, Breaker 1:9 “prophetic word” which is rather bizarre.

Scripture makes it clear there will be deception, false prophets, and false teachers in the last days.  When asked by the disciples what would be the signs of the end of the age Jesus responded:

4Watch out that no one deceives you.  5For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Christ,” and will deceive many…

10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.  12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

23At that time if anyone says to you, “Look, here is the Christ!” or, “There he is!” do not believe it.  24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible. [Matthew 24:4-5,10-13,23-24 NIV] 

In II Thessalonians 2:9-12 is a complementary warning from the Apostle Paul.

Bill Johnson has previously endorsed Bob Jones as a “friend” on one of his sites.  Now, there’s no question Johnson is outright endorsing Jones as well as his doctrine by allowing him to be a featured speaker (most likely THE featured speaker) at the upcoming Piercing the Darkness “Prophetic Conference” and thus identifying him as a “true prophet of God.”  This illustrates just how far Bill Johnson is in apostasy.

Endnotes:

[1] Booth, Tricia (formerly Tillin), The Birthpangs of a New Age. “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)” <  http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf >; as accessed 01/12/11

[2] ibid. pp 41-42

[3] International House of Prayer, Encountering Jesus.  free MP3 download <  http://www.ihopmp3store.com/Groups/1000021591/IHOP_MP3_Downloads/Free_MP3s/Free_MP3s.aspx  >; disc 4, 30:40 – 42:11; as accessed 01/12/11

[4] Grey Coats blog, The Vindication of E. Gruen. <  http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/the-vindication-of-ernie-gruen/  >; as accessed 01/12/11

[5] Grewe (van der Merwe), Jewel, Discernment Newsletter September 1990.  < http://web.archive.org/web/20060626225924/http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NL_Sept1990.pdf  > Volume 1, Number 5; p 5; as accessed from Web Archive (Wayback Machine) 01/12/11.  See also pp 67-69 of Tricia Booth’s document referenced at note 1.

[6] Grewe (van der Merwe) Jewel, Discernment Newsletter June 1990. < http://web.archive.org/web/20060626225912/http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NL_June1990.pdf  > Volume 1, Number 2; p 4; as accessed from Web Archive (Wayback Machine) 01/12/11.  See also pp 59, 68-69 of Tricia Booth’s document referenced at note 1.

[7] MorningStar Ministries, Media Store, VS19-000D. “Todd Bentley Healing and Impartation Service, 08-08-08” DVD <http://www.morningstarministries.org/store/teaching-sets/todd-bentley/todd-bentley-healing-and-impartation-service-08-08-08>

[8] “elmoziffle” Todd Bentley – Bob Jones – THE NEW BREED. < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykgcEWFCVgk  >; :43 – 2:28; as accessed 01/12/11

[9] MorningStar Ministries, Op.cit. at 1934:20 – 1940:50

[10] Bob Jones Ministries, Prophetic Words 2008; The New Breed (September 2008).    <  http://bobjonesnew.unionactive.com/Docs/Words%20of%202008/2008-09-The_New_Breed.htm  >; as accessed 01/12/11

[11] Booth, Op.cit. p 70

[12] Henry, Matthew. Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible; Volume 6. Copyright 199l by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc, 8th printing, April 2006, USA, Hendrickson Publishers; p 836

[13] Barker, Kenneth; Burdick, Stek, et. al. NIV Study Bible. copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society,  Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI; text note on II Peter 1:4, p 1898.

[14] ibid. text note on Galatians 2:12, p 1783

[15] Vincent, Marvin, R. Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, Volume IV. 2009; Hendrickson Publishers, Inc, 5th Ed, August 2009, USA, Hendrickson Publishers; p 147

[16] Henry, Op.cit. p 538

[17] Booth, Tricia (formerly Tillin), The Birthpangs of a New Age. “The Birth of the Manchild”  < http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/latterrain/manchild.html >; as accessed 01/12/11

[18] “MStarMinistries” Bob Jones The Shepherds Rod Prophecy for the Coming Year – MorningStar Ministries. From September 17, 2010 <  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfyuGoykpP0  >; as accessed 01/12/11

[19] ibid. at :30 – 1:10

[20] ibid. at 1:10 – 1:27 

[21] Johnson, Bill, When Heaven Invades Earth. 2003; Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 83 

[22] Kjos, Berit, Kjos Ministries website Role Playing Games & Popular Occultism: The ancient message behind role-playing magic  < http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/occult-rpg.htm#magic > par 1; as accessed 01/12/11

[23] Bob Jones Ministries, Resources and Store; Shepherd’s Rod 2008 <   http://bobjonesnew.unionactive.com/Docs/Shepherd’s%20Rods/SR-2008.htm  >; as accessed 01/12/11

[24] “MStarMinistries” Op.cit. at 3:44

[25] Bob Jones, Op.cit. “Shepherd’s Rod 2008” 

[26] Bob Jones Ministries, Prophetic Words 2008; Apostolic Government by 2012. “New Apostolic Government by 2010” < http://bobjonesnew.unionactive.com/Docs/Words%20of%202008/2008-11-Apostolic_Govt_By_2012.htm >; as accessed 01/12/11

[27] ibid.

[28] ibid.

[29] ibid.

[30] ibid. Overturning Roe vs. Wade would be one tall order indeed!

[31] “fr33info4u” Bob Jones – A new Sword of the Spirit. <  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJKNj7QsIXE&feature=related  >; as accessed 01/12/11

[32] ibid. at 1:55

[33] Henry, Op.cit. p 560

[34] “unmuseum.org” The Tower of Babel. <  http://www.unmuseum.org/babel.htm  > Copyright 1977, Lee Krystek; as accessed 01/12/11

[35] Scheifler, Michael “biblelight.net” Reversing an Act of God with a Modern Tower of Babel. <  http://biblelight.net/Tower-of-Babel.htm  >; as accessed 01/12/11

49 Responses to Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference

  1. Scott Pursley says:

    Excellently written. Clear and to the point. Thank you for the careful and solidly documented work!

    It is truly remarkable that still after thirty years of false teaching, false prophecy and documented church divisions, break-ups and destructive impact Bob Jones still has an audience. Bob Jones is a purveyor of some of the worst errors infecting Christianity, yet still he wields influence.

    Shame on Bill Johnson for promoting this hillbilly mystic mess, shame on Mike Bickle for ever bringing him national prominence (and then not having the courage to fully disclose how ‘off’ Jones is), shame on Rick Joyner for continuing to promote him (as well as the false teacher/prophet Todd Bentley). Is there not one national voice with courage to denounce Bob Jones and those who elevate this dangerous false prophet?

  2. Craig says:

    Scott,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    It is amazing that Bob Jones still wields so much influence. I could have written much more in this article as there’s a wealth of info out there on Jones. I’m hopeful this will reach individuals who are sitting on the fence of ministries such as Bill Johnson’s Bethel, IHOP, MorningStar, etc.

  3. julie says:

    Every time Bob Jones speaks, all I hear is confusion. That you were able to render some clarity and linkage from Bob’s ‘words’ to stated New Age goals and terms has, finally, after all these years, made Bob make sense. I didn’t think it could be done. Well done, indeed.

  4. cherylu says:

    It seems like once people, particularly those in leadership, have pronounced someone “the Lord’s anointed”, there is absolutely nothing they can do wrong that makes any difference. No amount of false prochecies given, outrageous doctrine, or immoral conduct, (which Jones was guilty of at one point) can convince anyone there is a problem. It seems all Biblical standards just get thrown out the window. I don’t get it. How do these people get these “get home free cards” all of the time anyway?

    Are people so very deceived that they think this is actually the way things are supposed to be?
    Do they really and truly not care about Biblical standards and truth?
    Are leaders so intent on promoting themselves and their pet agendas that Biblical reality and truth don’t really matter any more?

    All of the above???

  5. Craig says:

    All of the above???

    We have our winner!!

    Seriously, one cannot come away without thinking there MUST be some sort of agenda. Jones CLEARLY is “off” in more ways than one and yet he’s still promoted? The best succinct answer is strong delusion. [2 Thess 2]

  6. truthspeaker says:

    Great post Craig. All I can say is “birds of a feather flock together”!

  7. Pat says:

    Excellent article. Agree that when you read the “prophecies/statements” from these guys everything seems to run together and you get lost in their maze of madness. So much so that you don’t even know where to start in addressing the heresy. KUDO’S to you for the clarity that you bring in all of you work. After I get done reading them I say to myself…..”yea !!! Craig just confirmed everything I was feeling and thinking!!” I thank God for what you do.

  8. Craig says:

    Part of comment by “dave” from Kingdom of God is at Hand, part II moved by administrator:

    RE the Bob Jones prophetic word:
    This doesn’t even line up with Scripture and history. jesus came back over 2000 years ago? Unless he’s referring to the Resurrection, this is just poor English. But the Holy Spirit also came, at Pentecost, roughly 2000 years ago as well, not 100 as he states here. While it’s true that a more visible and certainly well-known event happened at Asuza Street, the Holy Spirit was not absent from the church during the time between the Apostles and the beginnings of the pentecostal movement.
    Papa isn’t getting ready to reveal His family, He’s already seen in His family now, as much as they conform to His character and follow Him, and He’s fully revealed in His Son Jesus, as Jesus said ‘He who has seen Me has seen the Father.’
    The thing is there’s nothing lacking in us, as Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, and ‘in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’

    Did Jesus “come back” 2000 years ago? Obviously not, of course, but New Agers believe that “The Christ” came back 2000 years ago in the person of Jesus as they believe “The Christ” previously “overshadowed” Buddha.

  9. BJ says:

    Thanks Craig, This is very well researched. Should keep me busy!
    BJ

  10. peacebringer says:

    You will appreciate this Josephus quote from the Wikipedia article on Nimrod

    Josephus wrote:

    “Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it were through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to reach. And that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers.

    Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them diverse languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion…”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

  11. Craig says:

    In the stats of the CrossWise blog I get to see the search terms individuals used to arrive at the site. Some are expected, some are unusual and some are right on. Here’s one that is right on:

    “christians are living stones not bricks”

    AMEN to that!

    [see “Round Temple Made of Burnt and Living Stones” section of this article]

  12. Pingback: Resources About The NAR « Signposts 02

  13. Pingback: The New Apostolic Resources « Signposts 02

  14. Bethelwatch says:

    Craig

    I just read quite a bit of this post. You are doing a great job. I don’t know how you do it. It is really discouraging to see that anyone could believe a word that comes out of these “prophets” mouths. I get depressed just reading it. I don’t think I could bear to do the research that you do. I want to sincerely thank you for your work.

    I remember being so angry listening to John Macarthur in the 70s when I was a young Pentecostal. I did not like his criticism of my believe system. But, he forced me deeper into the word. I became more convinced than ever that the gifts are for today, but I found also that my views needed refinement. Now I wish for a legion of John Macarthurs. We need more teachers that teach that the Word is above all other supposed revelations.

    It seems that we are entering a time of darkness in terms of the Church emphasizing the Word. It is leaving a void that the Bob Jones and Bill Johnsons are filling.

    Please keep up your hard work. I for one am deeply grateful for your efforts.

  15. Craig says:

    Bethelwatch,

    Thanks for the encouraging words! I do appreciate it! Many times this feels like such a thankless task.

    I know the articles are long, but I want to be sure they have enough documentation to back up the info making them difficult to refute. And, there’s no room for error for this sort of thing which takes additional time to triple-check content and sources.

  16. Pingback: “Christ” in the New Age « CrossWise

  17. Craig says:

    Astral traveling with Bob:

    “Bypass your mind”

    “No praying”

    “Breath of God smells like apples”

    “Empty your mind and let your spirit carry your soul…and there’s where he speaks to people”

    “If the enemy’s tryin’ to torment you with something, get raptured”

    “Go there often”

  18. Craig says:

    In the September 1990 issue of Charisma & Christian Life, in the piece titled “Truce Called in Bickle Controversy” which followed Gruen’s “Aberrant Practices” document is the following regarding the Bob Jones “prophecy” of the ’83 ‘drought':

    …Bickle detailed mistakes made in reporting two prophecies that had been made in reporting two prophecies that had been used to establish the legitimacy of KCF. Both prophecies were fulfilled, he stated. But the later retelling of these fulfillments were exaggerated.

    In one of the prophecies, KCF’s Bob Jones had predicted a drought in the Kansas City area that would end on a particular day. The drought was reported as starting in June and ending in August of 1983, on the day Jones predicted. When public records were checked, it was discovered that the drought started later than reported. It did rain on the day Jones predicted that it would, then the drought continued.

  19. Craig says:

    In Clifford Hill’s Prophecy Today UK magazine (Vol 4, Number 4) of July/August 1990 is an article titled “Kansas City Prophets” in which he mentions the “drought.” He quotes from David Pytches’ book Some Said It Thundered, a positive view of the Kansas City Fellowship/Kansas City Prophets (from the original, not revised version of this book):

    On page 90 of this book David Pytches reports on a prophecy given by Bob Jones in 1983, before the formation of the KCF, that there would be three months of drought. He quotes Mike Bickle as saying:

    “Kansas City was known as the bread-basket of the world; it was the centre of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles. For the whole of June there was no rain! It was terrible! For the whole month of July there was no rain! It was terrible! No rain during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said the Lord had told him it would come on August 23rd. We had all been poised since early dawn that day but by 1:00pm there was still no rain. By 6 o’clock we were just resigned to wait another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!”

    This incredible story of ‘accurate’ weather prediction is one of the ‘signs’ of confirmation that Mike Bickle uses to authenticate God’s approval for the formation of KCF [ed: and IHOP] and the new ‘prophetic movement’ that he leads. [bolding added]

    Hill goes on to cite the Gruen document illustrating the REAL truth.

    If this ‘drought’ was used to ‘authenticate God’s approval’ of KCF/KCP then it’s clear to me God did not approve!

    From the revised version of the book [Oliver Nelson, a Division of Thomas Nelson, 1991; pp 89-90] is the revised account:

    …Bob Jones got up and proclaimed a message to the city and the state.

    “As the ark of the Lord was hidden in Obed Edom’s house for three months and as Moses was hidden for three months in the cradel, so also there will be the total withholding of everything for three months, although God will allow a little bit of liberty.

    “In this city everything will be withheld. For three months there will be a drought. That’s the sign! God has spoken! The drought for three months is because the people have rejected the call to fast — they have mocked God. There will be rain on August 23.”

    Bob had given a specific date for rain during the drought which he predicted was about to begin.

    This level of prophecy could certainly be scary! Mike found himself becoming an expert weather watcher. The weather, of course, was soon a matter of widespread public concern. To quote Mike:

    “Kansas City was one of the bread-baskets of the world; it was the center of grain farming, fanning out to a radius of five hundred miles.

    “The drought did not begin immediately. In fact there was heavy rain in June, but the whole of July it was dry. It was terrible.

    “No rain still during the first week of August or the second or the third. It was terrible! Bob Jones said the Lord had told him rain would come on August 23. We had all been poised since early dawn that day but by 1:00 P.M. there was still no rain. By six o’clock we were just resigned to wait for another day when suddenly it began. And did it rain? It poured! No man could have manipulated that. It just had to be God!”

    That was still not the end of the drought, however. Although it was not a total withholding of rain, the exceedingly dry period covered a full three months, except for the predicted break on August 23. Official records reveal that it was the second lowest recorded rainfall for that period of time in the history of Kansas City!

  20. Craig says:

    Also, note these words by “prophet” Bob Jones above from the “New Breed of Elected Seeds” section in his monologue of 08/08/08:

    …So, literally, those that are gonna be youth leaders have gotta have a greater commitment than anybody else because this youth is the ones that’s really gonna take it to every corner in the earth. And, what he’s after now is the 25 to 40’s which are harvesters. He wants to bring in the harvesters for the harvest. The next 3 years is gonna be harvesting harvesters. For, the church is not ready for a harvest yet — she has not got enough people to harvest it. But, within 3 years you will have…

    “Within the next 3 years” would mean last month. Have the “harvesters of the harvest” all come in yet? Do we have enough to bring in the “billion souls harvest?”

  21. Kat says:

    Where are the prophets? I don’t know Bob Jones although I have heard of him and many of the people mention. My question is simply are there modern day prophets. I have had many dreams and words of God I personally have see come to pass in family lives…etc… I don’t say them but pray and it seem at different times I received more and just took them to prayer. Now I can’t pick out of the bible a biblical exact scripture. For example I dreamed of my brother in danger and a beating. It bother me of course I told my sister the dream and just said can we need to prayer for our brother. A week later it happen he was beaten as in the dream, only not killed as in the dream this was going to happen except in the dreamed I yelled no and I woke up and I prayed. This was not an ordinary occurrence. Of course it scared my family how accurate I have I believe messages from God. Now I don’t get dates & things regarding the earth. However, if I repeated certain things I am certain people would think this was heretic. For example in the dream the Lord show me specific things such as a sheriff’s badge, an older one, which let me know a police man was involved, Now none of this is in the bible. Although I am simply a person with no following. If I was to share something I know I would certainly be careful, as how would I explain all my life these occurrences. I believe by prayer many of these events were stopped. Otherwise why would I get them. How would I say them without being a heretic.

  22. Craig says:

    Kat,

    By OT standards a (foretelling, predicting) Biblical prophet is one who is correct all the time. A false prophet is one who is incorrect on any one prophecy. There have been and currently are non-Christians who have foretold events including Jeane Dixon and even purportedly Nostradamus yet these have also been wrong. Being able to foretell is not the mark of a Christian; the mark of a Christian is a life devoted to Jesus Christ.

    I’ve not studied dream interpretation or specific prophetic events foretold in dreams although I don’t disbelieve this sort of thing happens. My strong suggestion, however, is to pray to God that if these dreams are not of Him that God Himself would take them away. If you seek Him with all your heart, He will provide an answer.

  23. Craig says:

    Kat,

    In my comment to you, I went by the assumption that you are a believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I mean no disrespect; but, I must ask if this is true. This is so we are ‘on the same page,’ so to speak.

  24. Oskar Abley says:

    Hi Kat,

    How you doing? Firstly it is hard for people to believe in current day prophets let alone female ones. If you are not sure if there are current day prophets then you are likely not in a place to find one to mentor you. But still no worries, the prophets of old had it hard and so will you at times but there is lot learn and I am sure you will learn to love it.

    Elisha when he found Elijah gave up his current income by killing his bullocks and cooking them on the yokes used to steer them. He fed his family then stayed with Elisha till he got the double portion. I am not telling you to give up your job I am just saying when recognise someone who has a mantle of God on them and they want to mentor you and it feels right inside then do it.

    My friend is right, a prophet could not give a false prophesy, however in the new testament there is very little on the ministry execpt for Ephesians 4 that says that the five fold minisry as they are known, will bring the church to the fullness of Christ. There is much that Jones says is right however there is much around that is wrong. You will hear it said that we dont need to worry about sin or righteousnes or hell. I heard one chap in Melbourne who was recently talking to one of the guys mentioned who said that God does not judge people he judges spirits” meaning demonic spirits.

    Anyway the scripture says to wait on your ministry, you will find sooner or later a person who has big plans and puts them into place, he will be a strong man in the scripture which will not tollerate error, he is an apostle there are evengelists teachers and of course pastors however they are all equal with different function. if you are attending a church with a Snr Pastor who an apostle or everyone else for that matter is supposed to answer to then you may not be in the right place.

    Hearing God is hearing a still small voice like your conscience, you may have doubts that is ok, the voice of a demon has carnel pleasure or pride there is a natural warmth to the voice, what he says will sound good but there will be a certain part that will not sit right with you. I am not talking about your intellectual ability as God will say things or show you things that will not make sense, what I am talking about is it will not sit right in your spirit. Sooner or later you will recognise their voice before they get even a phrase out. Reject them that hate it and wil run.

    I am so glad to hear of a young prophetess, seek his face and his will. If the other ministries can make mistakes so can you.God grace is there for you, I do not mean greasy grace but if you fall the pick yourself up repent and submit yourself to Christ and godly authority. If the authority is not all that Godly then sit and wait, your day of ministry will come. Stand firm on the rock of Christ and his word and withstand the onslaught the name calling. When you get a word for someone go up to them gently and say I think I got something from the Lord for you would you mind if I shared it with you and got your thoughts on it? nice and soft and as you get small words that seem to vanish immediatly like smoke, step out in faith and try your ministry out.

    As long as you have a humble heart and a broken spirit, or maybe in more everyday language recognise that you are as fallen as everybody else and that you without Gods grace are in serious trouble, so with humility step forward. As the thing that will stop your ministry is Pride, it willl not stop the words coming as the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. But find yourself a Mentor female and not a new ministers wife, ideallly someone who has been through the wringer.

    Lovely to hear from you, I know some of your guys will not like what I have posted however this is from my experience of having many open visions and having many words of knowledge confirmed. By the way you will need to have this ministry confirmed, and it will need to be confirmed in a dozen ways that are not linked for you to know without a doubt that God has called you into the ascention gift ministries. If this is not right then I am wrong, and although I don’t think so I am comfortable with the knowledge that i have encouraged you to move forward in your calling and gifting in God.

    Regards Oskar.

  25. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    Since Kat’s one and only comment was 9 months ago, I wouldn’t be confident she’s still reading here.

    You wrote, “My friend is right, a prophet could not give a false prophesy, however in the new testament there is very little on the ministry execpt for Ephesians 4 that says that the five fold minisry as they are known, will bring the church to the fullness of Christ.”

    Can you show me Scripture which indicates that the so-called “five fold ministry” was to be latent for almost 2000 years and then somehow ‘restored’ in the last days? I didn’t think so. Also, is there NT Scripture which states that prophets – those who are to speak the very words of God – are now to be less than perfect?

    You wrote, “There is much that Jones says is right however there is much around that is wrong.” and, “…Anyway the scripture says to wait on your ministry, you will find sooner or later a person who has big plans and puts them into place, he will be a strong man in the scripture which will not tollerate error…”

    Bob Jones’ track record as a foretelling ‘prophet’ is abysmal and he is so far off the mark theologically, which puts your own comments and credibility in question. As a sort of update on this particular blog article, in the following are some direct quotes from Jones’ teaching at the 2011 Piercing the Darkness Conference (in the first section):

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-christ-part-ii/

    Jones speaks on “God-sperm seed” falsely attributing this to 1 Peter 1:23 and he speaks on the “Wisdom of the Ages” which is blatant occult/New Age terminology. As this article states, the man is a dangerous false prophet in more than one sense of the word.

    I have a feeling your comment is more about using this blog as a forum to post and promote your own heretical views.

  26. Tanner says:

    I’m sorry for your offense but I promise that if you knew anything about Bob Jones, or his history, you never would have written this article. If you don’t believe in the prophetic ministry that’s fine but accusing this chosen man of God of being a false prophet is a little foolish. I happen to know a thing or two about the prophetic and I can say in all honesty that the prophecies of Bob Jones, from his earlier days until now, are entirely accurate. The Lord spoke the whole end time prayer movement into existence through this man. Perhaps you don’t understand the interpretations of his prophecies but this man is truly a prophet of God. If only you had any clue what these people have to go through on a day to day basis. Being a prophet sounds really cool to us but to most prophets, it’s a burden, You can find no prophets who have not had to go through a great deal of turmoil and hardship in their lives, it’s a necessary burden to carry that comes with the gift. I’ve seen a crowd of hundreds get in line as Bob Jones told each of them a specific dream the Lord has given them and gave them the interpretation right there, in detail, and he didn’t miss a single one! I’ve seen false prophets, those who are intentionally using prophecy to manipulate or deceive people but I can assure you that Bob Jones is not one of those people! I mean this. I am not biased on this matter, I tell you the truth, this man might not be perfect, he might be many other things, but he is not a false prophet! The hand of the Lord has chosen this man and it would be wise of us to not condemn whom the Lord has chosen. God Bless!

    “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Matt 5

  27. Craig says:

    I see, so Bob Jones didn’t use his “gift” to sexually manipulate two women at Metro Vineyard Fellowship in November of 1991 (I’ve got a signed letter by Bob Jones to this effect and other info from Bickle and John Wimber)? And, Bob Jones “drought prophecy” was fulfilled to the “T” (see here)? And, Bob Jones doesn’t teach the heretical and occult-derived Manifest Sons of God doctrine (as indicated in this very article)?

    I don’t write these articles without the information to back them up. Do you not know that false prophets in the OT were able to make accurate predictions (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)?

    The mark of a true prophet of God is not their accuracy with respect to predictive prophecies, it’s the extent to which they proclaim the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

  28. just1ofhis says:

    “Recently, I’ve seen that people whose light is getting brighter have come under a stronger demonic attack than ever before. As I was praying on what to do about this, this is what I heard: “When you turn a light bulb on in the darkest of night, what does it draw? It draws Beelzebub!” “—-Bob Jones on Elijah List today

    http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=12328

    The Bible doesn’t say that once we are filled with light, we will draw darkness. NOT AT ALL. Rather:

    “Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, AND HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU.” (James 4:7)

    But, of course, God is doing a new thing and up is down and down is up and light draws Beelzebub….blah…

    I thought light drove out darkness…but then again, I am one of those unsophisticated Christian “wordies” who still takes the Bible literally.

  29. Bob Jones (whose books and prophecies I have actually perused) seems to suffer from both demonic influences and delusions of granduer. Nothing he says is correctly backed up by the Scriptures, and quite frankly is often completely off the wall. He has proven himself to be without integrity, both through his own actions and the actions of those he endorses. In a secular setting he would be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder accompanied by periodic psychosis, and with a bit of luck, medicated. In the religious world he is considered a spiritual father and super-prophet, and makes merchandise of the lost. Duran Duran were right about one thing…it is a mad world. Let’s keep praying!

  30. Craig says:

    I’ve a feeling that many of the things Bob Jones says are from the occult world. It is only because I’ve studied some esoteric literature that I’ve been able to make some sense out of some of his material. He’s speaking overtly occult and New Age (“awakening that will never end”) language in the first section here:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-christ-part-ii/

  31. Varsey says:

    I suppose you’re one of those who things everyone but you is part of a cult, it’s okay to be skeptical, I try to question everything I hear too! But King Solomon and King David both fell into sexual immorality so I guess you shouldn’t read anything written from them either… If you knew the facts behind the history of Bob Jones you’d change your mind about this man, trust me. The man died and met The Lord 30 years ago and The Lord sent him back to be the main prophetic voice behind the birthing of the end time prayer movement. And accuracy does not determine whether or not they’re a false prophet, their motives do. And that sexual sin you speak of back in the early 90’s, The Lord actually forewarned Bob Jones of it through a prophesy several years before it happened, The Lord told him that his faith was going to waiver prior to the scandal, and yes he messed up and he looked like fool but that doesn’t discredit what The Lord has spoken through him. The Lord can speak through a donkey for crying out loud! And Bob Jones has repented since then, he’s not this dirty, ill hearted, person that you made him out to be. If that was the case, he wouldn’t have the positive influence over the Church today that he does, there are a lot of pastors that look up to him and Paul Cain both. I highly recommend that you do a little more research and look into your sources! Thanks and Bless you my friend!

  32. Craig says:

    I highly recommend that you do a little more research and look into your sources!

    Perhaps you should heed your own advice.

    You’re drawing faulty conclusions by mentioning BIBLICAL characters next to the likes of Bob Jones. Jones’ sexual misconduct is not something I’ve focused on, as I’ve focused on his teachings and false prophecies (in this very article and the one referenced above). If you wish to believe that Jones had died and came back to life, that’s your prerogative. Do you verifiable FACTS to back this up? No, we have Bob Jones’ word, for what that’s worth. Just like we have Jones (and other “prophets”) word that Jones had been prophetically warned prior to this. Can you show me absolute proof that your assertion is true? Well, no you cannot.

    I suppose you also believe in the manifest sons of God doctrine that Jones actively promotes and has been promoting all these years?

    And accuracy does not determine whether or not they’re a false prophet, their motives do.

    And, how does one know the motives of another? Not one of us is omniscient. Therefore, doctrine MUST determine the status of a “prophet”.

    If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. [Deut 13:1-4]

    Jones is leading those who will follow him (as well as the others in the NAR) to an “other god”. The one who claims you can attain your glorified body BEFORE Jesus Christ’s literal, physical return. You should take the time and do some online research into the New Apostolic Reformation. For more on this manifest sons of God of Jones and how it relates to New Age, look here:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/chuck-pierce-hosts-conference-referencing-one-new-man/

    Here’s some research for you, as regards the “end times prayer movement”:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/did-ernie-gruen-recant-his-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-regarding-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/in-exonerating-paul-cain-is-the-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-invalidated/

  33. Varsey says:

    Thanks, appreciate your enthusiasm. I try to stick to the primary sources… The good news is that neither of our salvation’s are dependent on Bob Jones so whether he’s mislead or not there’s no reason to take offense towards the man. Maybe we should stick to less arguing and instead pray for the man, it will do a lot more good! Thanks and God Bless.

  34. Craig says:

    Primary sources were used. Just from the first link we had Chuck Pierce’s own words from Global Spheres, Bob Jones’ words from the Elijah List, Bill Hamon’s from one of his own books, and Bill Johnson from a transcription of a YouTube video. Now if you think I’ve taken any of those out of context, please explain.

    As to the other two very lengthy links, yet again, primary sources were used: Bickle’s own words from original documents, Gruen’s words from original documents, Paul Cain’s words from original documents, including tapes (which I have in my possession) that I personally transcribed or verified others’ transcriptions, and Jack Deere’s words from two of his books. All sources in all 3 links include footnotes which can be verified by anyone who can track down the source documents.

    I’m certainly not arguing with you – at least not in a negative way. I’m merely pointing out that I have gathered bona fide facts about Bob Jones as you initially stated, “…if you only knew the facts about Bob Jones you’d change your mind about this man…” I initially asked if you had verifiable facts to support your claims about Bob Jones, yet you provided none.

    Direct question: What do you think about the manifest sons of God teaching, in which the ‘believer’ can attain their glorified bodies on this earth before Jesus Christ returns bodily?

    Actually, I’ll disagree with you that “neither of our salvation’s are dependent on Bob Jones so whether he’s mislead”. If Jones is misled, then is it not possible that he’s misleading his followers as well? That is my contention and my warning to readers. The NT is replete with warnings about false teachers/prophets who will be within the church:

    13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. [2 Cor 11:13-14]


  35. Varsey, it is great to have you here asking questions. I hope that the Lord Jesus blesses your time here.

    NAR prophets claim an extraordinary amount of extra-biblical revelation, seemingly far more than the Apostle Paul or John ever received. It would follow then that at least some of this revelation would be considered new canon, as it is adding to Scriptures. A perfect example is Bob Jones’ current revelation referred to in his article http://www.bobjones.org/Docs/Prophetic%20Archives/2007_07_Basilisk.htm called The Season of the Basilisk. Honestly, I don’t quite know where to begin in pointing out the unbiblical teachings in this so-called prophecy. It disturbs me that Bob sees this as on par with Scripture.

    As for past sins, Bob Jones may be genuinely sorry for his actions. He may also have permanently changed his ways. However, his repentance is doubtful when he preaches a false gospel and follows a false spirit, and when he continues to support and promote other false teachers. The level influence Bob Jones or Paul Cain has in the church is meaningless as a way of assessing his status as true believer. Bono is highly influential in the ‘emergent church’ at the moment, but it makes him no less the unregenerate sinner he is than if he were spurned by those same people who currently hold him in such high esteem.

    I am interested that you assume we don’t pray for people such as Bob Jones. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do pray very earnestly for false teachers when I feel led to do so. In fact some of them draw some of the strongest compassion and concern I am capable of, particularly those who appear to be demonically influenced. I do not any pleasure in seeing someone like Bob Jones deceived, much less them deceiving others…particularly not on literal life and death matters. It is also heartbreaking to see the spiritual bondage many people in these movements experience, rather than true freedom in Jesus Christ.

    Having said this, if someone like Bob Jones is preaching something other than the pure, unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ, then as Christians we are commanded to point out their error and warn others. The Scriptures couldn’t be clearer on this matter. Some of us here (and Craig himself) have diligently examined the teachings of many well-known religious leaders. Those whose teachings do not match up to the Scriptures (for that is our only plumbline) must be rejected. For those teachers who have repeatedly had their unbiblical teachings pointed out to them in love, and refuse to repent of their teachings, we can have no fellowship with them. Bob Jones definitely falls into this category, whilst no worse than any other false teacher who persists in preaching a gospel that cannot save.
    Here is an excellent article from Mike Oppenheimer at Let Us Reason on Bob Jones that might be helpful:

    http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain52.htm

    Here is another quote from Bob Jones:

    “I’m quoting (below) what the Lord Jesus spoke to me that gave me an understanding of how faith works by love.”

    “There is a deeper compassion man has never understood. The Father taught Me that day as I hung there naked. Although they mocked and spit upon Me while I was on the Cross, I looked at them with love. The love of the Father is without condemnation because it is with full acceptance of the sinner’s sin. He loves them with the love of His Son that was worked in Me that day.”

    “No greater love has man than he’d give his life for his brother. That was the greatest testing of My faith. To walk in the faith of God you must know this and demonstrate it daily. Choose to love all mankind no matter what their sin. Just love them! You cannot stray from the Cross. It is the final crucifying of the flesh. Love God, love yourself and love your brother.”
    (End quote)

    “Choose to love all mankind no matter what their sin. Just love them!” This is Satan’s message of unity and oneness, but not God’s instructions in Scripture. It also twists the instruction to love others into an acceptance of their sin. We can accept that they do and will sin. But never do we accept the sin, and we certainly cannot continue fellowship with someone who continues to sin habitually and refuses to repent. “Love God, love yourself and love your brother.” This is a twisting of the Lord’s words. Never are we taught in the Scriptures to love ourselves. Never. We are told to love others as much as we love ourselves, but this is not a positive reflection on us. Sadly we love ourselves far too much. Rather Christ calls us to die to ourselves, and live a new life in Him.

    This is truly is blasphemy. Our Father in Heaven hates sin so much that he sent his only, beloved Son to die on the cross for us, who deserved no salvation. He poured out his holy wrath on his beloved Son precisely because sin is an abomination to a holy God and could not be overlooked. Jesus Christ took for us what we rightly deserved as the payment of the offense of sin against God. Christ has redeemed us with his blood, and clothes us in HIS righteousness. That is why we no longer stand condemned…not because God overlooks sin, but because Jesus has paid the penalty for all of the sins of those whom it pleases the Father to save. It is surely an offense to God to diminish what his Son accomplished on the cross. If you are in any doubt of this, I encourage you to listen to the following sermon by Conrad Mbewe, a pastor from Zambia:

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=77131615492

    Crosswise’s statement of beliefs is also an excellent summary of the beliefs of Christian orthodoxy and no doubt of many who comment regularly on this site. In particular I draw your attention to Craig’s statement about the Word of God:

    The Holy Bible, in its original form, is the Holy Spirit-inspired [2 Tim 3:16], inerrant, and infallible Word of God [Prov 30:5; 2 Peter 1:20-21], complete unto itself. The Bible will never be superseded or supplemented by any other teaching [Prov 30:6] and nothing should be subtracted from it [Deut 4:2; Matt 5:17; Rev 22:18-19]. Its full counsel provides the way to live a complete Christian life [2 Tim 3:16-17].

    There is no place in the Christian walk for the kinds of new revelation, visions and dreams Bob Jones speaks of having. They are not biblical, and Bob Jones and countless others consistently fail to faithfully use the Scriptures to test the spirits and reject false teaching. Bob Jones twists the Scriptures, sometimes beyond recognition, in order to feed his fleshly desire for more of everything…more revelation, more visions, more prophecy. I cannot imagine the beloved apostle John being unsatisfied and chasing after more revelation or visions after receiving the final revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Craig, I welcome correction if I have expressed anything incorrectly or in an unbiblical way.

  36. Craig says:

    Sherryn,

    Everything you stated looks fine to me.

    I find it interesting that quite a few individuals will suggest that blogs such as this one should either pray for a particular individual or preach the Gospel, as if posting blog articles and preaching the Gospel message & praying for others is somehow mutually exclusive.

  37. I see this a lot too. I certainly couldn’t claim to be perfect in this area, but the more I learn the Scriptures and experience the power of the Holy Spirit in my life the more convicted I feel to pray for deceived people (including false teachers). This has occured even more as I am better able to discern what is false! I am sure others reading this have the same leading at times. It is painful to see people deceived. An example for me is Patricia King, of Extreme Prophetic. She is so deluded it makes me want to weep for her. So instead I pray!

    I think also, perhaps some people fail to see how much of the Gospel is actually shared in blogs like this. In fact, one sign of a trustworthy blog is where a great deal of Scripture is shared and discussed in helpful ways. Maybe non-believers can’t see this, but is that because they are blinded rather than a failing on our part to be ‘Christian’ enough in our bloggging? Not sure. May a little from Column A and a little from Column B, as the infamous Homer J. once said?

  38. Varsey says:

    I didn’t accuse you of not praying. And once again, neither one of us ascribe to the teachings of Bob Jones, at least I’m pretty sure you don’t if I’m not mistaken, therefore no, neither of our salvations are dependent upon this man. Obviously a person like a Joseph Smith can gain a lot of followers and deceive people into believing a tampered, unbiblical, gospel and salvations are lost because of it, and sure, Bob Jones is capable of doing the same. That’s why the church must be discipled, the goal isn’t to follow another man, the goal is to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only way to salvation, not sure why you’d argue against that statement, perhaps you misinterpreted what I said. And for the record, I would never undermine sin, breaking the law is breaking the law, the consequence is eternal hell. But nor do I underestimate the Grace of God and the power of the finished work that Jesus Christ did on the cross, that would be just as tragic if I did. Nor do I believe in our right to judge a man’s heart on whether he has or hasn’t received salvation. And I agree with informing the body with the truth, steering them away from false doctrine and false teaching is extremely important for the shepherds of the church. But again, I am not one to get offended in my heart regarding the ware abouts of another man. There’s a difference between holding an offense in your heart and being angry with sin. If you are holding an offense that is a heart issue between you and the Lord, Jesus didn’t call us to carry grudges towards other people. Also, I refuse to persecute a deceived individual rather than loving them. God does not remove his from those living in sin, those are the ones whom he died for, and every single one of us used to be in bondage with sin until we personally were washed away in the blood of Jesus, am I will not let pride prevent me from loving a person even to the point of death, regardless of what crime they hold, that they too may know the Truth and experience salvation through Jesus Christ. Those in the Church must be held accountable for their sin, but again, if we the Church refuse to love and refuse to forgive, but rather show hatred and persecution towards those who have fallen, then we are every bit as guilty. Once a person turns, and walks out genuine repentance in their heart towards the Lord, The Lord is quick to forgive them of all of their wrong doing, He does not hold it against them any longer…neither should we. And I never suggested that you don’t pray for Bob Jones, again, you took my statement, which was meant to be a sincere and genuine statement regarding you and I both, and you took it completely the wrong way. I’m just trying to remind us of the fact that persiatant prayer for Bob Jones will do far more good than continually persecuting him and having such anger built up in our hearts. I believe that many of the things that you posted were probably accurate, at least partially anyway. The prophetic is easily misinterpreted and that can pose an issue, even misinterpreted by the prophets themselves, which can cause more harm than good. I know for certain that the gruen reports were misleading regarding Mike Bickle, that was the case of a man who grew in offense towards Mike, even after Mike took the time to biblical explain every component of it don to the details, provings gruens Ideas of the prayer movement to be completely wrong and misinterpreted, gruen still decides to release a false report of Mike, with a ton of papers, simply out of the bitterness in his heart at the time. Mike has address each of these claims on his website as well. Mike Bickle is not a deceiver, his teaching library is open to the public and its actually very sound doctrine. His focus is on the Word of God, period, people have misrepresented him, and I respect his kind heartedness and his humility regarding the accusations, not once has he shot back against another man in the Body of Christ, he’s kept his focus on the Lord, edifying the Body in truth, not separating it in unnecessary quarrels. However, I still will respect and love Gruen as a man of God… I have spent many hours, probably 15 or so, studying the legitimacy of the Tabernacle of David like prayer movement that’s been going on in Kansas City, in Israel, and all across the world. The Bible says that The Lord confirms his plans with his prophets, as He still does to this day. The end time prayer movement is not only biblical but it has been supernatural confirmed by The Lord through many of the prophets and it was be bliss of me to question it’s purity, its importance or its genuineness. The Lord is calling many to day and night prayer for the nations… Again, back to Bob Jones. I am not familiar with all of these teachings that you are addressing regarding him, if they are accurate, then yes, there are several that are unbiblical, at least according to what you have said. So I would not negate that, and I would agree, they are false. I don’t know what to tell you, perhaps Bob Jones has fallen off from where he used to be. I do know for certain though that many of his prophecies during the 80s were not only legitimate in the sense that they have already come to pass but also legitament in the sense that they came from The Lord. Bob Jones has the prophetic gifting, their is no doubt in my mind, whether or not, at this time, he is still walking with The Lord, that I do not know. Perhaps you are right on much of this matter but I still have heard much proof and evidence from people themselves that would confirm the legitimacy of the prayer movement and many of the words spoken through Bob Jones, so I stand on that, simply because your evidence does not yet outway what I have already witnessed and studied first hand…and have many recording too on my computer regarding these prophecies as well! Nothing can disprove what I have seen this hand that’s why I’ve said what I’ve said. But again, I highly respect you and have come to terms with the fact that we might not ever completely agree on everything regarding Bob Jones simply because we’re basing our understanding of him on completely different backgrounds and sources. Sorry if I came off rude or ignorant, I genuinely meant to be sincere and tender hearted regarding all of this, by no means did I mean to discredit you, was trying to just put a voice in the matter from a different perspective. I love and appreciate your work and pray for the wisdom and the hand of The Lord over your life, may he bless you and your passion for truth in the Church! Thank you for your patience and your understanding, I agree that much of what you have said about Bob is right. I’m not someone who ascribes to his teachings or whereabouts whatsoever, trust me, I’ve just been informed a lot on his prophecies back in the 80s and its nearly impossible to question the legitimacy of many of them, just to be honest. Perhaps he’s deceived but I’m not sure that he always has been. Thank you for gracious kindness and thank you for your concerns! God Bless you, glad we could talk civilly on the matters, the Church could use some more focus on Jesus, and less distractions, for sure, we need more unity!

  39. Varsey says:

    *God does not remove his love, I meant to say :)

  40. Craig says:

    I’m glad you’re taking the time to read some of the material here. And, I’m also glad we can communicate in a civil manner. I pray you’ll further consider the words in these articles and the words I’m speaking through this comment (even if it is rather direct and to the point).

    …I’m just trying to remind us of the fact that persiatant prayer for Bob Jones will do far more good than continually persecuting him and having such anger built up in our hearts…

    I’m not angry with Bob Jones. Can you show me anything in my words which display anger towards Jones? I do, however, have a righteous anger towards the practices and doctrine such as Jones which has so distorted the word of God (Scripture), continues with his false prophecies, etc. That’s not the hallmark of a Christian who has merely fallen into sin. Jones’ whole ‘Christian’ life is marked by falsehood; hence, I’m convinced he’s a tare and not the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30). That doesn’t mean he cannot at some point meet the real Jesus Christ of Scripture.

    Also, pointing out falsehood based on facts is not ‘persecuting’ as you say. It seems that by your definition, one could construe that you are ‘persecuting’ me with your initial defense of Bob Jones, while negating things I’ve stated, such as the implicit claim that I’m not using ‘primary sources’ (“I try to stick to the primary sources”), implying that my sources are faulty (“I highly recommend that you do a little more research and look into your sources!”) – though you’ve now conceded that I’m at least partially correct. My point is not to say that you were ‘persecuting’ me, but rather to point out that I was not persecuting Jones.

    …The prophetic is easily misinterpreted and that can pose an issue, even misinterpreted by the prophets themselves, which can cause more harm than good…

    It seems as though Scripture points out that there is no more of the “prophetic”:

    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Note “has” is past tense. This is sort of like the 400 year gap between Malachi and Jesus’ earthly ministry. Now we’re in a much longer gap – the time between Jesus’ Ascension and His Second Coming.

    … I know for certain that the gruen reports were misleading regarding Mike Bickle, that was the case of a man who grew in offense towards Mike, even after Mike took the time to biblical explain every component of it don to the details, provings gruens Ideas of the prayer movement to be completely wrong and misinterpreted, gruen still decides to release a false report of Mike, with a ton of papers, simply out of the bitterness in his heart at the time. Mike has address each of these claims on his website as well…

    With all due respect these are empty words with no material to back up your claims. I’ve got the material on that lengthy two-part article. And, I’ve got some of the original tapes from the Gruen Document. Would you mind telling me which part of the Gruen Document is “completely wrong and misinterpreting”? And, you also make the empty claim that Gruen “had offense” towards Bickle. Specifics, please.

    But, we’re just a bit off track with Bickle, as this post is mostly on Jones; however, I wouldn’t mind addressing your concerns on one of the Bickle threads. Let’s try this one:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/the-sandy-foundation-of-the-international-house-of-prayer-ihop/

    If you read the very beginning of the above link and check the footnotes, you’ll be led to a url in which Bickle makes the explicit claim that both Jones and Cain were and ARE “spiritual fathers” to him.

    …I do know for certain though that many of his prophecies during the 80s were not only legitimate in the sense that they have already come to pass but also legitament in the sense that they came from The Lord…

    That same article points out that the Jones “drought prophecy” was false in a number of ways. Yet this “drought prophecy” was supposed to provide legitimacy, establish the foundation to Bickle’s entire ‘prophetic movement’! On that basis, then Bickle’s ‘prophetic movement’ is false, just like the ‘prophecy’ on which it is based.

    Can you provide an example of just one of Jones’ ‘prophetic words’ from the ’80s that is accurate, with some kind of proof that it was actually predicted in advance rather than after the fact?

    But, even if you know for an absolute fact, have absolute proof that even one of Jones’ ‘words’ are true, once again, the hallmark of a true Christian prophet is the extent to which they adhere to Scripture, not whether or not they are actually correct in a prediction, as Deuteronomy 13 makes clear.

    The Tabernacle of David teaching is based on a number of faulty misconceptions and misinterpretations of Scripture. It’s all based on a book by George Warnock titled “Feast of Tabernacles”.

  41. Varsey says:

    Youve made it seem as if you’re implying that the prophetic ministry that Paul speaks so highly about no longer exist in the Church based on that scripture that you’ve taken out of context. Now you’ve got me more confused but that’s okay. I respect your persistence to continue to call me out but I’ve got to call it quits, sorry that I ever posted a single comment on your page, please forgive me. Again, I stand on the fact that you have a great heart and I appreciate your posts and see your devotion towards the truth! This is my last comment, I’ve been way to distracted with this whole thing! Love you and Bless you my friend, have a great afternoon!

  42. Craig says:

    I’m not sorry that you’ve posted your comments; you’re welcome here any time. You’ve been polite, even though we disagree.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 is not taken out of context. Jesus provided the final revelation – in His Person! But, this does not mean the gift of prophecy is no longer applicable. A contradiction? No. If you read Paul’s words in 1 Cor 12-14 in proper context, it becomes clear that the Apostle Paul is not speaking of foretelling (predictive) prophecy, but rather forthtelling prophecy, i.e., speaking forth the Word of God already spoken in Scripture in proper context and with proper exposition.

    …There’s a difference between holding an offense in your heart and being angry with sin. If you are holding an offense that is a heart issue between you and the Lord, Jesus didn’t call us to carry grudges towards other people…

    I’m glad you made the distinction, as I’ve long wondered why most on the hyper-charismatic (prophetic movement, NAR, etc.) have used the term “offense”. But, I’ve no personal beef with Bob Jones or anyone I write about on here. I’ve not once met any of them – not that that would change anything. I can’t say I haven’t ever carried a grudge towards someone else – or I’d be lying to you – but, I don’t have grudge on any of those whom I write about on here.

  43. IWTT says:

    @Varsey

    Really wish you wouldn’t go and sorry that you feel like you shouldn’t have commented. I have been reading every post that has been a part of this thread and I have enjoyed your discussion with Craig and others immensly. You leave comments that are thought provoking and help us all to know what we believe and why we believe. And in the long run, these civil proper comments that have occured, will and do also help you root in your belief as well.

    I wanted to say that while I may not be in agreement with you on certain areas and will admit I lean much more to this sites way of thinking you have been a great witness/ambassador for how to have a discussion with proper attitude. I have been always impressed with this sites ability to “talk”, by all commentors, in a civil, responsible, and respectful manner.

    As one whose parents were missionaries in a foriegn land, I will be praying for you, that the Lord will continue to provide for your family, provide greater outreach, and that you will have more and more opportunity to share the Gospel where you live. That the Lords protective hand will be about you and yours in the days ahead.

    Blessings
    Tim (IWTT)

  44. Pingback: Five Years On: Todd Bentley and Bob Jones Teaching Manifest Sons of God in 2008 | CrossWise

  45. Michael Menezes says:

    Having read the entire , article I wud say, please pray for the Leaders n yes u may not agree with Bob Jones prophecy, fine, but rather do not call him or others a false prophet, they are God’s anointed servants, continue 2 pray for them n pray for the church world wide, pray for the Gospel to reach all nations n pray for unity among the churches, you may not agree with prophetic words but do not attack in this manner, just pray n Let His will be done.

  46. Craig says:

    Michael,

    Before I spend an undue amount of time fully responding to your comment, I first want to see if you actually wish to engage in a discussion, or if you are yet another ‘drive-by’ commenter. (This means other readers should hold off on commenting unless Michael responds to the following.) With that in mind, I have but one question to ask you:

    Just how many “Jesuses” are there?

    If you believe there are more than one, please show proof from the Scriptures.

  47. Craig says:

    Here’s Kris Vallotton praising Bob Jones, recounting some rather bizarre happenings:

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