Walter Martin’s Last Stand on TBN

The following article is found on Jackie Alnor’s Apostasy Alert Blogspot from the March 11, 2011 Apostasy Alert Show titled Walter Martin’s Last Stand on TBN.  With Jackie’s permission, here is the complete article which provides the story behind the video links of Martin’s final TBN appearance (he was never invited back) which Alnor recently posted on YouTube.  Part 3 contains Martin’s quote from Dave Hunt’s book referenced below which quotes Kenneth E. Hagin’s and Kenneth Copeland’s heresy that Jesus died spiritually, took on the nature of Satan, went to hell, became sin and was subsequently ‘born again’ [starting at 6:58].

In light of another Calvary Chapel pastor making an appearance on TBN’s Praise-the-Lord program, I thought it apropos to share a tape in my collection of how a Bible believer should behave when invited onto TBN or any of the other errant “Christian” network. What sort of message is communicated when a solid Bible teacher shares the platform with heretics and does not bring reproof? Certainly it gives the impression that the guest endorses the teaching of the hosts and /or founder of the Christian network.

Some argue that if they can’t go on TBN due to its corruption, then they couldn’t show up on ABC, NBC or CBS either. They don’t understand the distinction between being salt and light to the unsaved world and practicing biblical separation from so-called Christians who are spreading false teaching against Jesus Christ. To the unsaved, we can use their media to spread the Gospel, but to the errant brother we are to bring correction and divide if they do not stop their false teaching. For a proof-text consider 1 Corinthians 5:11:

“But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.” [NKJV]

When Calvary Chapel Albuquerque’s pastor Skip Heitzig went on TBN last week acting like he and his host Phil Munsey were old friends, it was a shame to the spirit of that passage. Phil Munsey and his brother Steve Munsey are two of the most infamous extortioners in the field of Christian television. Munsey has used new age ideas of paradigm shifts and panentheism to spread his unbiblical dominionist views.

In contrast to the compromisers, the late Walter Martin tried to bring correction the last time he made an appearance on TBN. This video tape has never circulated and has not been available anywhere until now that I have posted it to YouTube.

Back in 1985 my younger sister was Martin’s secretary. She and my older sister and I all regularly attended his weekly Bible study. I used to share my research with him and also with my friend author Dave Hunt. Walter and Dave disagreed on many things regarding their styles of apologetics and discernment. Whenever there was a difference of opinion between the two of them, I usually agreed with Dave.

I had had some discussion with Dr. Martin over Dave’s book, The Seduction of Christianity. Walter had been critical about it on the radio having never read it but based his criticisms upon what his personal editor had told him.

One day my older sister was watching Praise-the-Lord when Hal Lindsey was a guest. He was her pastor at that time. Back then Hal used to challenge the teaching of other TBN regulars and Paul Crouch put up with it. However, that got old with the Crouches and when Hal wouldn’t stop criticizing the Kingdom Now doctrine, he was put on the shelf until he learned to kow-tow to them. When my sister heard Hal bring up Walter’s name in the show, Paul and Jan agreed that he was a brilliant man and Hal said you should have him on some time. They both responded – oh sure we will.

So she informed our little sister who told Walter and Walter told her to call TBN and arrange it which she did. However, the Crouches wouldn’t host him so they got prophecy teacher Doug Clark to do so. My younger sister called me on the day of the taping saying that Walter wanted me to go through Dave Hunt’s book, The Seduction of Christianity and highlight things he would be in agreement with. I was happy to do so for him. He used that information to challenge TBN’s blackballing of Dave Hunt and other whistle-blowers.

I stayed home to work the VCR I didn’t know how to program, while my two sisters attended, one in the green room and one in the audience we had stacked with many friends. Walter gave it to them with both barrels. Not only was the program not replayed at its regular slot, but the tapes were not available when people followed up to request one. Back in those days any Praise-the-Lord program could be bought on audio cassette for a small fee. And both Walter Martin and Doug Clark were never invited back. We had heard years later from Doug Clark that during the interview he kept receiving notes via the stage manager from Jan Crouch calling in telling Doug to “shut that guy up” and other nasty comments.

I found a way to post the interview in its entirety to YouTube – so look at it before it gets cut. I had to put it into several parts due to space restrictions, but I completed the task. I honestly think this is the very best tape of Walter Martin that is in existence. When he talks about the things he disagrees with Hunt on, keep in mind Hunt was right.

Here are the links:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

Part 5 – a surprise addendum:

I actually went on a program on TBN back in 1986 called Joy in the Morning. I used to call the host whenever I saw any of his guests spreading error. He would thank me graciously and so I kept monitoring his show and called him when an infiltrator would slip in. We all had some hope for TBN back in that day, but at some time the Crouches went over the line, never to return to orthodoxy. I posted that interview on YouTube as well. Here’s the link:

Enjoy the memories and spread the links.



29 Responses to Walter Martin’s Last Stand on TBN

  1. Craig says:

    The other night I caught part of TBN’s Praise-a-thon with Benny Hinn pleading for money. I was half asleep; so, I don’t know his words verbatim. Hinn said he was going to do something he had never done before. (Note: HE was going to do it.) He wanted to anoint with oil all the pledges (that could get rather messy, I’d think) in order to “prophecy” over them that the donors would continue to receive prosperity for the following year. Call me a cynic; but, I believe this was an effort to ensure the donors would actually send the money they promised.


  2. Elizabeth A says:

    This is an interesting and very pertinant article, and I will certainly watch the videos. One thing to mention though: where does that leave people like Kirk Cameron, John Macarthur, Todd Friel and Paul Washer, all of whom have appeared interviewing/being interviewed on TBN. I only ask because I admire the teaching/work of these men (though perhaps may not agree with everything they ever do/say….like the disagreement between Walter Martin and Dave Hunt perhaps?!).


    • Craig says:

      Elizabeth A,

      Your question is not an easy one to answer as one could look at it a number of ways. Were Cameron, MacArthur, Friel, Washer salt and light amidst the darkness? Should they just boycott TBN altogether given how the network mangles Scripture each and every time they have a Praise-a-thon in order to raise money? (And, of course, this is not the only time Scripture is maligned in the programming.) Or, should they attempt to speak out on the network against the false teachings of the network in general and thus no longer be welcomed on TBN as in the case of the late Walter Martin?

      Some have VERY strong views on this and consider merely allowing TBN to broadcast a particular show is tantamount to an endorsement by the individuals in the show.

      I myself watch TBN in order to see just what’s going on currently — to see if the apostasy is getting worse. However, there are some good preachers and some good local programming here in San Antonio.


  3. Jackie Alnor says:

    you missed part 3 – might be the most important one:


  4. Craig says:

    I need to state that I take exception to the late Walter Martin’s quite charitable affirmation that Hagin and Copeland are “brothers in Christ” who “love the Lord” [video 3 @ 8:30]. Given Hagin’s and Copeland’s stated heresy [Jesus died spiritually and went to hell, taking on the nature of Satan…] with its blasphemous depiction of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and its associated inherent denial of the Atonement, which thereby places these individuals clearly outside of Christian orthodoxy, I would have a difficult time embracing them as brothers in Christ.


    • Scott says:

      Interesting, and quite a coincidence that I was just deliberating over the same thing right now. I watched these earlier and had commented on someone’s fb page that “did you notice that Walter Martin said this, kind of an eye opener”. Who knows, who knows, who knows. Only God does. It’s hard to grasp, isn’t it though. But you’d think if there was anyone whose words you could trust, it would be Walter Martin’s. Supposedly (and I’d have to look more into this) Hagin in his last days came against the excesses that his theology was causing. Perhaps, this is worth checking out.


  5. Craig says:


    I was struck by Martin’s comments the first time I viewed these the other day. After reviewing the tapes again yesterday I was convinced that I wanted to write about it, but I wanted to do so in the comments rather than the article itself to keep my opening comments brief in favor of displaying all of Alnor’s post.

    If Hagin was falling under conviction of some sort regarding the numerous heresies he propounded, that would have been great; however, it’s disappointing, if so, that he did not go public to try to right the wrongs he so vigorously put forth.


  6. Scott says:

    Or perhaps Dr. Martin was just taking the high road, and in the moment decided to play it safe. Maybe in his discernment, it was best to do this, and he knew that saying it wouldn’t really have any bearing on the more important points he was making – – keeping it focused on Jesus, and the truth of scripture, and emphasizing the teaching more so than the person. Perhaps they were trying to bait him. Who knows why he said it. As the article said, notes were coming in from backstage trying to get him to shut up, and he knew not to go where he didn’t need to. After all, what if he said “no, they’re not believers”, or even try to be neutral and say “gee ya know I really don’t know”. There’s an inherent smug arrogance to beware of in those kinds of statements, and especially when you’re in the lions den on live TV? I think he was just very careful, and exercising wisdom. (My thoughts from FB, might as well just post them here too)


    • Craig says:

      Yes, I considered that Martin was “taking the high road,” but, the portion he quoted of Hagin/Copeland was so blasphemous and its implications so costly to the body of Christ [not “Body of Christ” thereby making us gods as Hagin has stated elsewhere in one or more of his books and quoted on this site] that he should have gone all the way and called a spade a spade. However, nobody is perfect and Walter Martin may well have lived to regret it. We just don’t know.


  7. peacebringer says:

    Scott, I don’t really think it was taking “high road” per say. For while Dr. Martin did pursue apologetics and provide many ways of dealing with Biblically sound motives, as examine him and choices, he is, as we all are, greatly flawed. No idea of what motivated him one way or another. Why at one point in time he exposed errors in 7th day adventists and another he support them. There is much that is not as appears and God will sort it all out, for we all at points do really “miss it” or even directly “cover” things up, or advocate wrongly.


  8. Russ w. says:

    Thank you for posting these video’s, brings back memories.


  9. Wilhelmina says:

    Reblogged this on Capital for Radicalism and commented:
    Why Walter Martin Never Came on TBN Again


  10. Wilhelmina says:

    Thanks a lot for sharing this information and these videos. I found Dr. Martin’s “The Kingdom of the Cults” to be an extremely useful book, for one because it isn’t a distortion or caricature of the religions he dissects, as many Evangelical critiques unfortunately are.


  11. Carolyn says:

    Quote from article above: “What sort of message is communicated when a solid Bible teacher shares the platform with heretics and does not bring reproof? Certainly it gives the impression that the guest endorses the teaching of the hosts and /or founder of the Christian network.”

    The other day I was visiting a site that I thought was orthodox and much to my surprise, I see that he is teaming up with Randy Demain for a cruise…GASP!

    I clicked on Randy Demain on the side bar of your site and voila…

    What is going on? How can one of my favourite Bible teachers jump off the bridge of orthodoxy and land on a cruise ship full of false apostles? Whaaaa! I tell ya.,,,confusion reigns when there are no clear lines being drawn between truth and error in this generation of “love wins”.


  12. Stephen says:

    I remember that broadcast in 1985. Very surprised to see it then and the fact you have it on you tube today. It was a gem in what has been a dung pile of 99.9% of the TBN broadcast schedule.

    What I was surprised by was Doug Clark and his skating on thin ice to proceed with the show. They could have always gone to color bars and aired something else but Clark seemed to enjoy the audition as if the Crouch’s would allow him back. Obviously, that was not the result. Not surprised about Jan sending notes via the calls as Clark looks off set at the crew often and keeps trying to peddle through the interview. Martin was unphased and at times wondered if the vaudeville hook was about to happen. I wonder what his thought were of the interview and time on air there?

    Martin however was talking as much about the Crouch’s as the others he named. What I want to know is whatever happened to Clark? What was the rest of his life’s story? Do you have any details on the rest of his life?

    I’ve done some research but the trail ends about the end of the 80s to early 1990s with a conviction and several years spent in jail over a fraud or larceny case. Believe that was over a retired teacher in Florida who Doug via his son Jeff manipulated through prophetic about her retirement investments (luring her to buy silver). Then Clark falls off the map or radar of anyone.

    As a journalist (retired) and present Christian Fiction Writer I see Doug Clark as a very interesting character. But the road the Crouch’s have gone (like the Schuller’s, Lamb’s, Baker’s, Robert’s, Swaggert’s, and back to Aime Semple McPhearson) is a train wreck where they loose it or loose it all. One look at Jan Crouch in the following article with two dogs in a stroller is like a Truman Capote IN COLD BLOOD look into madness.

    I hope you will have information of what Paul Harvey called ‘the rest of the story’ on Doug Clark. I’d sure like to learn how his life went on and where (if) it has ended?


    • Craig says:


      Sorry, but I’ve no idea what happened to Doug Clark. The videos were posted by Jackie Alnor. Since, I myself am rather new in the faith at just over 13 years, I had no idea of any of this sort of stuff at the time. So, a lot of my education has come in retrospect.


  13. I have watched the video, and read Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults.” Although I don’t share Martin’s religious persuasion I found that his treatment of various religious denominations to be accurate and fair, without caricature. Honestly, his work is a lot more generous toward the Latter-day Saints and Watchtower Society than the mainstream liberal media is.


  14. I believe that TBN has been going astray for years by allowing false teachers to be apart of their network, especially those who preach the prosperity gospel and all the rest of the money changers on their network and where there is no accountability for those who are living in sin within the the pastoral. I was a staunch supporter of TBN for many years and it saddens me that TBN has wondered so far away from their early beginnings. I Love (the late) Paul and Jan Crouch. R.I.P.
    I pray that Paul Jr and Matt will reconcile return to their first Love and use this great platform to preach the Truth which is in Jesus Christ and Him alone. In Jesus Name. Amen!


  15. I watched this video in its entirety on YouTube just a few days ago. Sadly, I had never heard of Dr. Martin before I happened upon the video but I’ve listened to a ton of his sermons and teachings since then. Great man of God. He was like a pit bull for Jesus. Haha Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you for posting it on YouTube and exposing the heresy at TBN. It is horrifying that that version of the “gospel” is still being exported worldwide, and not at all surprising that they buried Dr. Martin’s interview and never had him back. What a joke of a network.


  16. drunkenbubba says:

    I’m pretty sure I remember this show, and the controversy that occurred between 85 and the early 90s over the Kingdom Now, Prosperity Gospel etc etc etc. I would make one correction though, and that is Doug Clark was not banned after doing this show. He was on Praise The Lord regularly as a guest, and hosted his own show on TBN well into the early 90s.


    • Craig says:

      I’ll have to take your word for it, as this is a piece I’d taken directly from Jackie Alnor’s site (with her permission), and I wasn’t a viewer of PTL back then.


  17. Jessie says:

    THE CROSS Meaning from the Greek word: translated “cross” is stau•rosʹ. It means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: [Stau•rosʹ] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle.

    According to Greek dictionaries and lexicons, the primary meaning of stauros is an upright pale, pole, or stake. The secondary meaning of “cross” is admitted to be a “later” rendering. In spite of the evidence, almost all common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate’s crux (meaning cross) as the rendering of the Greek stauros.

    Encyclopaedia Britannica, in the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner.

    My Gosh that is just a few renditions anyone can easily find – You Don’t need to be an Scholar or Occultist to look up this info!


    • Craig says:


      I deleted all your comments, as they do not pass my commenting guidelines (your condescending tone, etc.), but decided to reinstate this one in order to illustrate how your JW stance in this regard is not correct. As I’m sure you know, word meanings sometimes undergo changes as time goes on. And it looks as though the stauros used in ‘crucifixions’ were not merely single poles as the initial meaning of the word, but poles with a crossbeam at the top. In the Epistle of Barnabas (ca. 70 – 130AD), an extra-Biblical Christian work, the writer uses the Greek letter tau (T) to indicate the stauros, specifically the one used to kill Jesus.

      Moreover, as one of the many so-called nomina sacra (Latin for “sacred names”), contractions of words with an overscore used in early Greek NT manuscripts, seemingly to indicate reverence or importance, stauros is contracted in a manner different from the others. A rho (P—fifth letter of ΣΤΑΥΡΟΣ, the Greek majuscule [capital letter] form of the English transliterated stauros) is superimposed over the tau (T), such that the rho is elongated resulting in the half circle portion of it rises above the tau (T), in obvious depiction of Christ’s head on the cross (stauros). You can see what I mean by viewing the last page of this article here:

      Click to access staurogram-essay.pdf

      It is clearly not the Egyptian cross, the ankh. Is it possible that it’s an adaptation of it? Perhaps. But, that’s hardly the same as the adoption of it. If you’ll take the time to read Hurtado’s essay, you’ll see how it predates Constantine, as well.

      To get an idea what the word looked like in the Greek manuscripts, see the last item here:


  18. Brad Wilson says:

    Hi, just before the 6 minute mark of part 2, Walter states that 47% of the NT is apologetic. He gives a name as a reference for that claim, but the name is either edited out or there’s a glitch. Do you have any idea who he is speaking of?
    Thanks, Brad


    • Craig says:


      You happened to catch me still awake and by my computer. I just listened to the section, and it’s obvious this part was edited. Guessing–an educated guess–I’d say Ravi Zacharias, given the date of the initial broadcast.


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