Misplaced Trust, part I

[Part II here]

“I would really render a service if I could show people how I became what I am from what I was. It might be useful to know how a rabid orthodox Christian worker could become a well-known occult teacher.” [1]

Alice A. Bailey relates the above from a friend’s letter who felt Bailey herself should write an autobiography.  Bailey (AAB) wrote, or more accurately, acted as a medium through which Djwhal Khul (Djwal Khul), also known as “Master D. K.,” “The Tibetan,” or simply “D K,” ‘dictated’ his books.  These books, all written between 1919 and 1949  (including her own Unfinished Autobiography), are distributed by Lucis Trust[2].  According to Constance Cumbey, these works provide most of the doctrine of the New Age / New Spirituality teachings of today:

“…The esoteric thrusts of the [New Age] Movement as well as the aims of its groups are largely derived from the Alice Bailey books.” [3]

Brief History of Theosophy

The Bailey material can be seen as an extension of the work begun by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky (HPB) who primarily formed the initial doctrine of Theosophy.  Blavatsky, along with H. S. Olcott and W. Q. Judge, founded the Theosophical Society of New York City in 1875[4].  Annie Besant was appointed successor to HPB, and, along with C. W. Leadbeater extended Theosophic doctrine[5].  AAB (and husband Foster Bailey) was initially involved in the Theosophical Society but later split with the group [6].  However, clearly, her work is in the same vein; and, Bailey/The Tibetan quotes from both HPB and Besant in her books.

The term theosophy comes from the Greek theosophia (knowledge of divine things; theos, god, and sophia, wisdom, from sophos, wise) and is defined:

1.      Any of various philosophies or religious systems that propose to establish direct contact with divine principle through contemplation, revelation, etc. and to gain thereby a spiritual insight superior to empirical knowledge.

2.      [often T-] the doctrines and beliefs of a modern sect of this nature that incorporates elements of Buddhism and Brahmanism.[7]

Definition 1 is a general definition for much of esoteric/occult doctrine, while 2 [Theosophy, with a capital ‘T’ – the one of Blavatsky, Besant, Bailey, et al] is a specific sect.  Interestingly, the first definition seems to be applicable for Latter Rain [8] theology and some forms of modern Christian charismaticism with their inherent gnostic beliefs.

From Lucifer Publishing to Lucis Trust

In 1919, AAB hesitatingly began[9] her telephathically generated literary works emanating from “The Tibetan” (Djwhal Khul).  She would continue acting as a medium for The Tibetan until her death in 1949.  In the early 1920’s she and her husband Foster Bailey founded Lucifer Publishing Company as a vehicle to publish the books.  The name was changed in 1925 to Lucis Publishing Company which it remains to this day[10] and, as stated above, these books are all available through Lucis Trust.  The Baileys were:

“…serious students and teachers of Theosophy, a spiritual tradition which views Lucifer as one of the solar Angels, those advanced Beings Who Theosophy says descended (thus “the fall”) from Venus to our planet eons ago to bring principle of mind to what was the animal-man.  In the theosophical perspective, the descent of these solar Angels was not a fall into sin or disgrace but rather an act of great sacrifice, as is suggested in the name “Lucifer” which means light-bearer. [11] [emphasis in original]

Obviously, this is a mischaracterization of Lucifer/Satan according to orthodox Biblical Christianity and a redefinition of Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9 as well as Isaiah 14:12-15.  In addition, the Theosophic belief in evolution is exposed (“the animal-man”).  It’s quite interesting how Lucifer’s rebellion is changed to “an act of great sacrifice.”

Scripture is clear that Satan “masquerades as an angel of light” and that his servants will “masquerade as servants of righteousness” [II Corinthians 11:14-15 NIV] so, we shouldn’t be surprised by the infiltration of this type of thinking within the “Church.”   In fact, this is one of the stated aims of the New Age / New Spirituality as explained by AAB/The Tibetan:

“The Son of God is on His way and he cometh not alone.  His advance guard is already here and the Plan which they must follow is already made and clear….” [12]

  “[They are] already active in the form of the New Group of World Servers; they are as potent a body of forerunners as has ever preceded a great world Figure into the arena of mankind’s living…” [13]

The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished….” [14] [all emphasis added]

The “Son of God” and the “great world Figure” of the first and second quotes respectively are referring to the future antichrist.  While there are divergent views of the “two witnesses” of Revelation 11, I cannot dismiss the similarity of the above with one of the stated “prophecies” and goals of International House of Prayer’s “Forerunner Curriculum”:

“God is raising up a generation of end-time messengers like John the Baptist to prepare the way for His Son’s return by boldly proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom to all the nations” [15]

Regardless of one’s view of the Revelation 11 witnesses, it is clear in verse 11 that they are overcome by the “beast” rather than remaining part of the “victorious Church” contrary to Mike Bickle’s “Apostolic Premillennialism” belief system[16].

The Apostle Paul makes it clear that the Day of the Lord [the time of judgment for God’s adversaries contrasted with blessings for His faithful], Jesus Christ’s return, will not come until the rebellion/apostasy occurs first (II Thessalonians 2:1-3) and the “man of lawlessness is revealed” (the antichrist).

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.  They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  11For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
[II Thessalonians 2:9-12 NIV; emphasis added]

Compare this Scripture above with AAB as we pick up where the passage left off:

“…The church must show a wide tolerance, and teach no revolutionary doctrines or cling to any reactionary ideas.  The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering the old forms in which they are expressed and held) show their true and inner spiritual significance.  The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages.  Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.” [17] [underlining from emphasis in original; bolding added]

In taking this last quote and the II Thessalonians Scripture, it seems that healing could well be one of the “counterfeit miracles” of which Paul is referring.  Of course, this is not to say the True Church does not heal through the power of the Holy Spirit.  Unfortunately, many in charismatic circles put an emphasis on the “power” of “the Spirit” as if the power is theirs’ to wield at will.  Yet Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit disburses gifts as HE determines [I Corinthians 12:11].

Bill Hamon, one of the recognized “fathers” of the “third wave” charismatic movement says:

“Every believer has the ability to manifest the supernatural in a miraculous way….

 “In my book, The Day of the Saints, I prophesied what would be many of the truths and ministries… …[including] every saint manifesting the supernatural… In the last several years, we have seen these things happening in the Body of Christ, such as through the increased emphasis of signs, wonders and miracles…” [18]

Who is bringing the “increased emphasis of signs, wonders and miracles?”  Is this the work of the Holy Spirit or is it man-induced?  If man-induced, then by what spirit?

The “Master Jesus” and the “Christ” of Lucis

According to the occult teaching of Theosophy, Jesus is also a “light-bearer” having attained the title of “Master” as a result of His extraordinary life and utilization of the “Christ” which was in Him.  His example is the one we are to follow in order to attain the status of “Master” ourselves.  “Christ” then is the inherent but not yet actualized divinity within all individuals according to the esoteric perspective.  This view of “Christ” should be kept in mind as explained in the following:

“There is a growing and developing belief that Christ is in us, as He was in the Master Jesus…” [19] [underlining from emphasis in original; bolding added]

I’m reminded of a quote from Bill Johnson’s When Heaven Invades Earth in which “Christ” is referred to as “the anointing”:

…The anointing is what linked Jesus, the man, to the divine…” [20]

While “Christ” is inside individuals according to Theosophy, the meaning of the term “ the Christ” (and sometimes just “Christ”) can be different depending upon context and is explained in a footnote in the Lucis book The Externalisation of the Hierarchy:

“…The Tibetan has asked me [AAB] to make clear that when he is speaking of the Christ he is referring to His official name as Head of Hierarchy.  The Christ works for all men, irrespective of their faith; He does not belong to the Christian world any more than to the Buddhist, the Mohammedan or any other faith.  There is no need for any man to join the Christian Church in order to be affiliated with Christ.  The requirements are to love your fellowmen, lead a disciplined life, recognize the divinity in all faiths and all beings, and rule your daily life with Love.” [21]

To be clear, “the Tibetan” is not “the Christ.”  He (the Tibetan) is explaining that “the Christ” is the official name of the “Head of Hierarchy” [Jesus of Nazareth, now "Master Jesus," was the previous incarnation of  "Christ" and He will be succeeded by the forthcoming "Christ" or, in actuality, the antichrist empowered by Lucifer].  Keeping this perspective of “Christ,” the “Christ” in the preceding and the following is actually the coming antichrist:

Christianity will not be superseded.  It will be transcended, its work of preparation being triumphantly accomplished, and Christ will again give us the next revelation of divinity…. 

“…Can there not be revelations of God utterly unprecedented, and for which we have no words or adequate means of expression?  The ancient mysteries, so shortly to be restored, must be re-interpreted in the light of Christianity, and readapted to meet modern need….” [22] [emphasis added]

And, with the substitution of “Christ” for antichrist (empowered by Lucifer), one can see how confusion can quickly develop as to who this “Christ” is to the unsuspecting true Christian.  Also, note how the Apostle Paul and theologians are denigrated:

“The wonder of that Life lived two thousand years ago is still with us and has lost none of its freshness; it is an eternal inspiration, hope, encouragement and example…. The words He spoke were few and simple, and all men can understand them, but their significance has largely been lost in the intricate legalities and discussions of St. Paul, and the lengthy disputations of theological commentators since He lived and left us – or apparently left us.

 “Yet – today Christ is nearer to humanity than at any other time in human history; He is closer than the most aspiring and hopeful disciple knows, and can draw closer still if what I here propose to write is understood and brought to the attention of men everywhere.  For Christ belongs to humanity, to the world of men, and not only to the churches and faiths throughout the world.”  [23] [emphasis added]

So, according to the Theosophic view, “Master Jesus” is part of the “Spiritual Hierarchy” along with Master D.K. (The Tibetan) among others with the forthcoming “Christ” (empowered by Lucifer) as the near-future “Head of the Hierarchy.”  The intent as evident in the title of the book, The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, is to take the current “internal” spiritual hierarchy (in the spirit realm) and “externalize” it on the physical plane.[24]  In other words, the goal is to take the demons from the spirit world and bring them physically to earth ushering in the antichrist and the end of the age!

Some theologians are of the view that Revelation 12:3-4 and 12:7-9 are describing the same event: Satan’s initial rebellion and his expulsion from Heaven.  However, I hold these are separate and distinct accounts with verses 3-4 depicting the initial rebellion while verses 7-9 are prophesying a future event in which Satan and his demons are thrown from the heavenly realms and confined to earth during the Tribulation period.  Taking the esoteric views of the Bailey books in conjunction with Scripture, much like a negative to its corresponding photo, lends credence to this belief.  Further, passages such as Job 1:6-7; 2:1-2 and Ephesians 6:12 show that Satan had access to Heaven and still currently has access to the heavenly realms:

“12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers of this dark world and against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” [NIV; emphasis added]

From Pisces to Aquarius

A central tenet of the Lucis books is the Zodiac.  Accordingly, we are currently in the Piscean Age (old age) which will very soon give way to the Aquarian Age (New Age).   The Piscean Age is referred to as the Christian Age[25] or “old order”[26]; so it follows logically that the Age of Aquarius – of “soul consciousness,” “divine awareness” and “capacity for abstraction” (idealism)[27] – will be the post-Christian Age.

With the Piscean Age coming to a close and the concurrent dawning of the Age of Aquarius, there are those who are fully on board with the New Age (although I believe most do not fully understand the implications) and those who are clinging to the old (I proudly call myself an old ager).  The Piscean Age is part of the “fourth kingdom in nature” while the Aquarian Age is the “fifth kingdom in nature.”  According to this esoteric teaching, this “fifth kingdom” is also the “kingdom of God on earth.”[28]  To enter the kingdom of God one must have the “over-shadowing” or be “soul-controlled” – in other words: be demonically possessed:

“Emphasis should be laid on the evolution of humanity with peculiar attention to its goal, perfection.  …man in incarnation, by the indwelling and over-shadowing soul…. …The relation of the individual soul to all souls should be taught, and with it the long-awaited kingdom of God is simply the appearance of soul-controlled men on earth in everyday life and at all stages of that control. …The fact will appear that the Kingdom has always been present but has remained unrecognized, owing to the relatively few people who express, as yet, its quality….”[29]

I’m reminded again of the II Thessalonians passage in which God Himself will send a “strong delusion” to those who “perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

The Piscean Age is also viewed as one of selfishness rather than the “inclusiveness” of the Aquarian Age[30].  Therefore, individual salvation, for example, is viewed as being exclusivist and thus, an impediment to the New Age in which “group initiations” will be done en mass[31].   In fact, the only recognized “sin” by Theosophy/Lucis and New Age/New Spirituality is the “sin of separatism”:

“First, the active energy of loving-understanding will mobilise a tremendous reaction against the potency of hate. To hate, to be separate, and to be exclusive will come to be regarded as the only sin, for it will be recognised that all the sins as listed, and now regarded as wrong, only stem from hate or from its product, the anti-social consciousness….” [32]

“…Yet sin and evil do exist on Earth.  We are told by the Tibetan that the only true evil is the sin of separatism. [33]

Accordingly, the Aquarian Age will have no room for monotheistic religions – Christianity, Judaism and Islam – as they are viewed as detracting from the furtherance of a one world religion and one world government since they are exclusivist by nature.  The Lucis works are also anti-semitic[34].  The Jewish race is seen as “perpetuating the Jewish dispensation” and thereby remaining in the Age of Aries rather than growing in the “Christian dispensation” – the Age of Pisces[35].

There are certain areas of evil in the world today through which these forces of darkness can reach humanity. What they are and where they are I do not intend to say. I would point out, however, that Palestine should no longer be called the Holy Land; its sacred places are only the passing relics of three dead and gone religions. The spirit has gone out of the old faiths and the true spiritual light is transferring itself into a new form which will manifest on earth eventually as the new world religion. To this form all that is true and right and good in the old forms will contribute, for the forces of right will withdraw that good, and incorporate it in the new form. Judaism is old, obsolete and separative and has no true message for the spiritually-minded which cannot be better given by the newer faiths; the Moslem faith has served its purpose and all true Moslems await the coming of the Imam Mahdi who will lead them to light and to spiritual victory; the Christian faith also has served its purpose; its Founder seeks to bring a new Gospel and a new message that will enlighten all men everywhere. Therefore, Jerusalem stands for nothing of importance today, except for that which has passed away and should pass away. The “Holy Land” is no longer holy, but is desecrated by selfish interests, and by a basically separative and conquering nation.

 The task ahead of humanity is to close the door upon this worst and yet secondary evil and shut it in its own place. There is enough for humanity to do in transmuting planetary evil without undertaking to battle with that which the Masters Themselves can only keep at bay, but cannot conquer.The handling of this type of evil and its dissipation, and therefore the release of our planet from its danger, is the destined task of Those Who work and live in “the center where the Will of God is known,” at Shamballa; it is not the task of the Hierarchy or of humanity. Remember this, but remember also that what man has loosed he can aid to imprison; this he can do by fostering right human relations, by spreading the news of the approach of the spiritual Hierarchy, and by preparing for the reappearance of the Christ. Forget not also, the Christ is a Member of the Great Council at Shamballa and brings the highest spiritual energy with Him. Humanity can also cease treading the path to the “door where evil dwells” and can remove itself and seek the Path which leads to light and to the Door of Initiation.[36] [emphasis added]

So, according to The Tibetan (DK), the “door where evil dwells” is in the “three dead and gone religions” of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  Keep this in mind as you read the fourth stanza of The Great Invocation – the prayer of the New Age disciple:

From the centre which we call the race of men
            Let the Plan of Love and Light work out
            And may it seal the door where evil dwells.[37]

It has pompously been declared that The Great Invocation, “if given widespread distribution, can be to the new world religion what the Lord’s Prayer has been to Christianity and the 23rd Psalm has been to the spiritually minded Jew.”[38]  For more on the significance of The Great Invocation according to the New Spirituality / New Age see this section on the inplainsite.org website.

This war against the monotheistic religions will be fought with “mental weapons” and in the “emotional realm.”  Of course, we know that our enemy is not of flesh and blood but rather spiritual forces (Ephesians 6:12):

“Years ago I said that the war which may follow this one would be waged in the field of the world religions.  Such a war will not work out, however, in a similar period of external carnage and blood; it will be fought largely with mental weapons and in the world of thought; it will involve also the emotional realm, from the standpoint of idealistic fanaticism.  This inherent fanaticism (found ever in reactionary groups) will fight against the appearance of the coming world religion and the spread of esotericism.  For this struggle certain of the well-organized churches through the conservative elements (their most powerful elements), are already girding themselves… …Fanaticism, entrenched theological positions, and materialistic selfishness are to be found actively organised in the churches in all continents and of all denominations…

The coming struggle will emerge within the churches themselves; it will also be precipitated by the enlightened elements who exist in fair numbers already, and are rapidly growing in strength through the impact of human necessity.  The fight will then spread to thinking men and women everywhere who — in a protesting revolt — have denied orthodox churchianity and theology.”[39] [emphasis added]

The goal of infiltrating the churches to destroy from within seems to be well underway.  As but one example, Rick Warren, who is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), on the advisory board of Tony Blair’s ecumenical Faith Foundation, and who is even recognized as a New Age guru among New Agers, has stated that fundamentalism will be:

 “…one of the big enemies of the 21st century.”

“Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism – they’re all motivated by fear.  Fear of each other.” [40]

I’m really annoyed when perfectly good words are redefined to further an agenda.  In my old Webster’s dictionary the word “fundamentalism” is defined:

1.      Orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible (e.g., complete acceptance of the story of creation as given in Genesis and rejection of the theory of evolution) and regarded as fundamental to the Christian faith.

2.      the movement among some American Protestants emphasizing this belief; opposed to modernism. [41]

Does Warren have a problem with that?  Well, obviously, he’s not opposed to modernism; but, it seems his use of the term “fundamentalism” is more one of extremism.  He’s bought into the negative stereotype of the term as portrayed in the liberal media.  Personally, I’m quite fine with both definitions above; but, I’m vehemently opposed to both extremism and modernism.  However, it’s apparent that Warren does not mind watering down Christianity in his bid for ecumenism; and, in so doing, he marginalizes the Faith.

[Part II here]

Added 03/26/13:

Below is one of a number of full page advertisements posted in newspapers around the world on April 25, 1982.  This particular one comes from the Los Angeles Times and is found on the back of Constance Cumbey’s book The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow (see 3rd footnote below for a full citation).

THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE ad

christ is now here

This obviously refers to the coming Antichrist, not Jesus Christ.

Endnotes:

[1] Lucis Trust website. About Alice Bailey. <http://www.lucistrust.org/en/books/alice_bailey_books/about_alice_bailey> par 3; as accessed 12/05/10
[2] Lucis Trust main page. <http://www.lucistrust.org/> as accessed 12/05/10
[3] Cumbey, Constance. The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow. 1983, rev. ed., Huntington House, Shreveport, LA; p 55.  This resource is also available as a free download at <https://public.me.com/cumbey> “HIDDEN DANG…ND COVER.pdf” p 39
[4] Theosophical Society home page <http://www.theosociety.org/> par 1; as accessed 12/05/10
[5] Kazlev, M. Alan, Kheper website Adyar-Theosophy School.  <http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Adyar.html> par 1; as accessed 12/05/10
[6] Lindsay, Phillip. Alice A. Bailey, H.P. Blavatsky and Helena Roerich.  <http://www.esotericastrologer.org/EAauthorEssays/AABHPBHR.htm>  copyright 2004; as accessed 12/05/10
[7] McKechnie, Jean L. Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged, 1983; Simon and Schuster; p 1893
[8] Wikipedia Latter Rain (post-World War II Movement), <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_(post-World_War_II_movement)>
[9] Lucis, Op.cit. About Alice Bailey.  par; as accessed 12/05/10
[10] Lucis Trust website. The Esoteric Meaning of Lucifer.  <http://www.lucistrust.org/en/arcane_school/talks_and_articles/the_esoteric_meaning_of_lucifer> as accessed 12/05/10
[11] ibid.
[12] Bailey, Alice A. The Reappearance of the Christ.  1948, Lucis Trust, 9th printing 1979 (4th paperback ed.); Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; p 60
[13] Bailey, Alice A. The Externalisation of the Hierarchy. 1957, Lucis Trust, renewed 1985, 8th printing 1989 (4th paperbook ed.) ; Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; p 598
[14] ibid. p 510
[15] International House of Prayer website. IHOPU Forerunner Curriculum. <http://www.ihopkc.org/ihopu/schools/forerunner-curriculum/> 2013 International House of Prayer; bullet point 1; as updated/accessed 03/25/13
[16] International House of Prayer website; Forerunner bookstore. Apostolic Premillennialism (CD Single). <http://store.ihop.org/store/product/4236/Apostolic-Premillennialism-%28CD-Single%29/> Product Description; as accessed 12/05/10
[17] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. pp 510-511
[18] Elijah List website; Hamon, Bill. 2008 is the beginning of the Third and Final Apostolic Reformation. <http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/6195> February 25, 2008; par 1, 2; as accessed 12/05/10
[19] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. P 592
[20] Johnson, Bill. When Heaven Invades Earth. 2003; Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 79
[21] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. P 558
[22] Bailey, Alice A. From Bethlehem to Calvary. Copyright 1937 by Alice A. Bailey, renewed 1957 by Foster Bailey; Lucis Trust, 4th paperback ed., 1989; Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; pp 20-21
[23] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. pp 592-593
[24] ibid. pp 593-594
[25] Bailey, Alice A. Discipleship in the New Age I. Copyright 1972 by Lucis Trust [1st printing 1944], 8th printing 1972 (paperback); Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; pp 611, 633
[26] ibid. p 785
[27] Bailey, Alice A. The Destiny of the Nations. Copyright 1949 by Lucis Trust; 5th printing, 1974 (2nd paperback ed.); Fort Orange Press, Albany NY; pp 112-113
[28] Bailey, Op.cit. Bethlehem. pp 184-186
[29] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. p 588
[30] Bailey, Alice A. The Rays and the Initiations. Copyright 1960 by Lucis Trust; 5th printing, 1976 (2nd paperback ed.); Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; p 109
[31] Bailey, Op.cit. Discipleship. p 76
[32] Lucis Trust website. The Use and Significance of the Great Invocation. <http://www.lucistrust.org/en/service_activities/the_great_invocation__1/the_use_and_significance_of_the_great_invocation> as accessed 12/06/10
[33] Lucis Trust website. Descent and Sacrifice. <http://www.lucistrust.org/en/arcane_school/talks_and_articles/descent_and_sacrifice> par 8; as accessed 12/06/10
[34] Bailey, Op.cit. Rays. pp 534, 548, 705-706
[35] ibid. p 548
[36] ibid. pp 754-755
[37] Lucis Trust website. The Great Invocation. <http://www.lucistrust.org/invocation/> 4th stanza; as accessed 12/06/10
[38] Lucis, Op.cit. Use and Significance.
[39] Bailey, Op.cit. Externalisation. pp 453-454
[40] Nussbaum, Paul The Philadelphia Inquirer. The Purpose-Driven Pastor  <http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1555425/posts> last 2 par; as accessed 12/06/10
[41] McKechnie, Op.cit. p 742

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107 Responses to Misplaced Trust, part I

  1. Becky says:

    excellent and very interesting. we are in the midst of the fight are we not? let us “stand firm in the faith”

  2. Craig says:

    Becky,

    Yes, indeed we are in the thick of it! There’s an onslaught from within and without and on all fronts. We need the whole armor (Ephesians 6:10-18).

  3. Craig says:

    This was just posted at Lighthouse Trails:

    The “Creeping” Effect – The New Age and Evangelical Christianity

    by Ray Yungen

    If you have ever wondered why New Age authors and their teachings are creeping past many Christians, then maybe the definition of creeping might help. The term means: slowly advancing at a speed that is not really apparent until you look back over a long time period….

    This same kind of movement has happened within our society and has gradually become mainstream. What was once seen as flaky is normal today—even useful. This trend is impacting evangelical Christianity at only a slightly lesser degree than secular society. The reason for the slight variance is that many, perhaps most, Christians have not yet grasped, or come to terms with, the practical mystic approach that New Age proponents have already incorporated into the secular world, as well as Christendom.

    A mystical pragmatism is growing particularly fast through various New Age healing techniques….

    Read the entire article here.

  4. julie says:

    You have clearly articulated what I have been putting together, in my mind, for some years now. In reading the scriptures, it’s the exact same problem the children of Israel had in keeping away from idolatry – going so far as mixing it in with their pure religion. I wonder, were they as deceived as the church seems to be, today, into thinking this mixture was OK with God? Thanks for giving my thoughts clarity!

  5. Craig says:

    julie,

    You’re quite welcome! And, thanks for your comment. Part II will show more of how the influences of the New Spirituality/New Age, etc. have spread.

  6. Craig says:

    This was posted on Constance Cumbey’s blog:

    http://www.synthesis.tc/Printables/Printable_Our_Lineage.htm

    Note how this is likened to a “river” — the same term modern charismaticism uses. Also, note how “The Plan” to “externalize the Hierarchy” and for the “Reappearance” of “The Christ” (Lucifer/antichrist) is said to be in its final stage:

    The task of the final push to prepare and awaken humanity for the Externalization and the Reappearance has been given to us. Into our hands is entrusted this work, and it would not be so if we were not worthy. It is through the faithful carrying out of the work that we become the trusted workers. We have earned the right to carry out this work.

    What is the Ashram of Synthesis? We know from AAB’s writings that the Tibetan announced in 1946 “the formation of a new Ashram in which the Wisdom aspect would be of particular importance and not the Love aspect.” He also stated this new Ashram, through certain endowments brought by the Buddha concerning the Will-to-Good of the Lord of the World [they call him 'Sanat Kumara'], would enable the Christ [actually antichrist/Lucifer and NOT Jesus Christ] and the Master R, the Lord of Civilization, to register divine Purpose in a new way. And other than a few comments on the combined work of the 1st, 2nd and 7th ray ashrams, he said little else about this new Ashram in formation at that time.

    And, look at the objectives of this Ashram compared to the objectives of Seven Mountains/Dominionism:

    What are the immediate objectives of the Ashram of Synthesis? All of the Ashram’s multiple objectives are oriented towards the single goal of creating the conditions within which the Christ can reappear. These include:

    1) The formation and development of a unity of religions in preparation for the New World Religion;

    2) The spiritualization of business to make it an instrument of the Plan functioning as a planetary resource distribution system to subsidize the growth of human consciousness;

    3) The freeing of human consciousness from its entrapment and enslavement in matter through all true spiritual teaching now available to humanity;

    4) The radiation of the substance of the lower planes by increasing subjective work around the world;

    5) The destruction and clearing away of old forms to create space for new forms to manifest;

    6) The funding of the work so it may go forward rapidly and potently;

    7) Changing the focus and priority of nations from national self-interest to the good of all peoples and nations.

  7. Craig says:

    I just made some corrections to the post. I put a note at the beginning of the article to explain:

    “[Further review of the material has led me to a better understanding of it and the need to correct and clarify information in the paragraphs following the quotes at notes 21, 22 and 23. Please accept my apologies for the errors.]“

  8. truthspeaker says:

    Great work Craig! I’m looking forward to reading part II

  9. omots says:

    Craig, a very good synopsis of the Bailey “Plan”. But it is dangerous to assume AB was telling the truth, and that the so-called “plan” she laid out, coming from the mouth of one or more demonic entities, is the whole plan, or the real plan, all nicely detailed for us to dissect. In my view, Bailey’s “plan” is a leaky bucket.

    Indeed, as you’ve documented with your excellent research uncovering some of the wolves in sheep’s clothing that dwell among us, there are a variety of ways we can be led astray. I’m almost more concerned about the many people within my own church fellowship who are being fooled by people clearly outside the church, deceived by those who claim to be soldiers fighting on the side of righteousness, i.e. people like Glen Beck, a man who appears to me is fighting for the very same masonic ideals Alice and Foster worshiped, the ideals of freedom and liberty here on this earth. Rebellion is rebellion, even when draped in the red, white, and blue. I am not afraid of what man can do to me, my hope is in eternity with my Lord Jesus. His Kingdom is not of this world.

  10. Craig says:

    omots,

    Thanks for your kind words.

    Yes, certainly the modus operandi of demons is deception. And, I’m not of the mind that “The Tibetan” was only one demon. Like all good lies, though, most are peppered with large bits of truth. However, since Satan and demons are not omniscient they do not know the future (although they have an idea from Scripture). My take is that “The Plan” has one ultimate end — the destruction of human souls, of course — and, it matters not the exact means to get there. Certainly, though, most of “The Plan” has remarkably come to fruition; but, of course, Satan’s demise is prophesied so his world rule will be brief.

    The New Agers / New Spirituality have both their left and their right wing. It’s all part of The Plan.

    And, yes, you’re right, of course, God’s Kingdom is not of this world — as all will find out one day. And, no matter what, Jesus will be the ulitmate victor. He’s not coming back for America, Jesus is coming back for His Church.

    I quite like your blog and your thought-provoking posts. Your most recent one about the Shield Act depicting Obama doing the cosmic dance of Shiva on the cover of Newsweek is eyeopening! Keep it up!

  11. Julie says:

    Hey, I hope you don’t mind but I posted a link to this page on Bill Johnson’s FB page. I came out of a church last year that modeled itself on Bethel, and I earnestly desire to see the church wake up and see the deception it has believed. Thank you for speaking the Truth and being bold. Julie

  12. Craig says:

    Julie,

    Not only don’t I mind; but, I encourage you and others to post links from here.

    I’m glad you came out of a Bethel influenced church.

  13. Julie says:

    Just a follow up from last night…whoever moderates Bill Johnson’s website must have deleted my post. Just wondering if this has happened to anyone else? It’s really discouraging; I know I cannot control what happens, my heart is for the ones under deception to know the real Jesus.

  14. Craig says:

    Julie,

    Sadly, this is apparently a not-too-uncommon occurrence. Queries from individuals I know to Johnson regarding his doctrine have all been either unacknowledged or ignored.

  15. omots says:

    Craig wrote:

    “Sadly, this is apparently a not-too-uncommon occurrence. Queries from individuals I know to Johnson regarding his doctrine have all been either unacknowledged or ignored.”

    Nicely put, Craig. You have hit the nail on the head re one of the surest methods of discerning a false teacher. Anyone who dares criticize or question the leader’s doctrine is labeled a “nay sayer”, just one of the many “unwashed”, albeit “unenlightened”, an enemy simply not worth the guru’s time.

    Steve

  16. Pingback: Misplaced Trust, part II « CrossWise

  17. Craig says:

    Regarding the “sin of separatism”: a few months ago I caught on local Christian radio a fairly well known woman who was teaching on Biblical motherhood. She related how she saw two women on TV with one saying to the other, “I’ve decided against becoming a mother.” The other replied, “How selfless!”

    The Christian teacher responded that she thought this was very SELFISH rather than SELFLESS. She went on to talk about rampant materialism in our society. However, I do believe she totally misunderstood the intention.

    According to New Agers, our current way of living is “unsustainable” due in large part to our overconsumption [materialism is a 'sin of separatism'] which is depleting the earth’s resources. Thus, to choose not to have children is seen as an act of selflessness — a sacrifice to the greater good of the whole.

    This is why population control and even DEpopulation is promoted by New Agers. Ted Turner suggested a “one child policy” like China has imposed at the Dec 6 World Climate Summit in Cancun:

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ted-turner-calls-for-global-one-child-policy-like-chinas/

    There’s an oft-quoted (and mostly misquoted and incorrectly attributed) statement of Turner’s which promoted depopulation. I found the original source which is from the November/December 1991 Audobon (I have a copy):

    “If we had a much smaller population, and over time we could have an ethic where we had only one child, and over maybe 300 to 400 years we could cut back to 250 million — 350 million people… [p113]

    I should point out that the current US population is OVER 300 million and the world population is just under 7 billion. Any volunteers to be “selfless?”

    http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

  18. omots says:

    Craig wrote: “Certainly, though, most of “The Plan” has remarkably come to fruition…”

    Really? Could you be more specific?

    Be careful.

  19. Craig says:

    omots,

    I would say the inroads into Christianity, our education system, influence of the UN, etc.

    Perhaps I should have phrased that better as maybe: “The Plan is working towards its goals.” — or something less certain than using the word “fruition” which makes it sound like it’s here or almost here.

    Do you think “The Plan” is off track?

  20. omots says:

    Bailey’s demonic spirit took God’s Holy Word, God’s revelation as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, God’s prophecy, and claimed it as his/her/their own, with a few twists. Constance Cumby says we have to avoid a major war between the three “monotheistic” faiths of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism at all costs because that’s the “Bailey Plan” which will usher in the New Age and the “False or Anti-Christ”. Cumby has decided by revealing this “Plan”, and working to prevent this “Plan” from happening, she is doing God’s will.

    “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.” Mat 24:4-7

    Mar 13:8 repeats Mat 24:7- “For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows”

    Luk 21:10 also repeats the same: “Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom”

    The Holy Scriptures tell us to be aware of deception, yet we swallow Bailey’s “Plan” as the gospel truth about what the DEVIL is up to.

    Do you see the problem with this?

    The entire goal of theosophy is to demonstrate that God is a tyrant, has laid out an awful “plan’ that condemns the majority of mankind to hell for merely breathing His air. Theosophy claims God is not acting in mankind’s best interest AND NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.

    Bailey’s Plan is a doctrine of demons. Theosophy uses the scriptures to “prove” how bleak the future is as long as God is in control. Theosophy claims to be a “Plan” to counter God, is unfolding as we speak, yet in order to believe Bailey’s “Plan” holds water, you would have to believe Satan is equal to God in power and authority, or reverse the two “roles” entirely. You would have to believe that DK was telling the truth. You would have to believe God is a liar. You would have to believe that Bailey’s words are authoritative.

    I don’t.

  21. Craig says:

    omots,

    I don’t take the stand that we, as Christians, should avoid all conflict with Islam. Pitting the monotheistic faiths against one another may well be part of The Plan; but, I’ve never said I agree that we should ‘play nice’ in order to avoid this.

    You wrote: The Holy Scriptures tell us to be aware of deception, yet we swallow Bailey’s “Plan” as the gospel truth about what the DEVIL is up to.”

    I’ve never said we should accept Bailey/The Tibetan as authoritative; however, it’s clear that some of “The Plan” reads as a negative to the Biblical positive, so to speak — working toward Biblical fulfillment. I think we need to be aware of stated intentions by Satan and his minions, yet we also know that deception is part of the plan. We know there is disinformation disseminated for this express purpose. This doesn’t mean, however, that we take the Bailey/Lucis material as all wrong and all deception. Some of “The Plan” is definitely going as planned.

    Scripture is clear that there will be rampant deception and a lack of faith towards the end as in Matthew 24:9-12 (among many other verses) and Luke 18:8. This is one of the meanings behind the title of this series as Misplaced Trust.

  22. omots says:

    Craig, could you give me some specifics?

    You rephrased your statement to read: “The Plan is working towards its goals.” You also wrote: ‘This doesn’t mean, however, that we take the Bailey/Lucis material as all wrong and all deception.’

    Could you briefly list out for me 1,2,3.. the parts of the plan that are “working towards its goals”, and also clarify what that those “goals” are (if different from what I wrote), and also please tell me exactly what parts of the plan you believe to be true?

    What evidence is there that the “Plan”, channeled through a demonic entity, reveals the TRUE “stated intentions of Satan”?

    Are you saying Bailey’s Plan fulfulls scripture? Or replaces/mirrors scripture? Can’t have it both ways.

  23. Craig says:

    omots,

    The Plan has:

    1) in redefining “Christ” in more than one way depending on context confused Christians and thus infiltrated the Church (see footnotes 17 and 22).

    2) has worked to redefine concepts and doctrines in addition to #1 above in the Christian faith, thus working toward the goal at footnote 17 and 22

    3) has successfully brought Eastern/New Age practices into the “Church” such as yoga, contemplative prayer, etc. — mysticism — which I believe is one of the goals as stated at footnote 39.

    4) has sucessfully worked to marginalize Christianity from without by imposing laws which limit freedom of religion for Christianity and Judaism especially (which will go further once the Alliance of Civilizations agenda is furthered) while seemingly catering to Islam. This is evidenced in manifest ways and goes toward fulfilling Matthew 24:9-13 as mentioned in my previous comment.

    5) is attempting to bring about “the Christ” / Lord Maitreya — the antichrist — and this will eventually fulfill portions of Revelation, Daniel and other Scripture.

  24. omots (steve) says:

    Okay, so which part of “The Plan” is new information? Which part of the Plan tells us something we couldn’t learn by reading the scriptures?

    All of the aspects you mentioned in #’s 1-5 were revealed to us before hand by the prophets and apostles and by Jesus himself as things we should expect to see. So, as the days go by, tell me what we are witnessing…is it Bailey’s “Plan” we are watching unfold, or is it God’s Plan? Are both “plans” equal, do they battle each other in some cosmic Yin and Yang dance, vying for superiority but locked in perpetual balance, like two sides of the “force”? That is certainly what Bailey would like us to believe.

    Consider what Paul wrote in 2Cr 11:4, “You seem to believe whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach about a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.” (NLT)

    FYI- I am currently working on a piece about C.S. Lewis, a self admitted devotee of Theosophy. I hope you will read it when I have it up. (And by the way, thanks for leaving a comment on my current blog post.)

    The fact is, Bailey knew the scriptures exceedingly well, probably better than most of us do. But she was not a prophet, nor was DK. There is nothing revelatory in Theosophy. Theosophy is pure rebellion, painted to look like the best choice, plain and simple.

    Consider what is written in Rev 13:9-10: “If any man have an ear, let him hear: He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” (KJV)

    Is the above prophecy from Revelation a part of the Alice Bailey “Plan”, or is it God’s Plan? People are in grave danger when they start confusing the two. In fact, the are in grave danger when they even start looking at the “Bailey Plan” and considering it to be the truth.

    Lucifer is a created being. Satan has work to do that God has allowed/ordained for him from the beginning. This is the mystery of God, one that I cannot fathom. But I do know in whom my salvation depends= Messiah Jesus. I know we agree on that.

  25. Craig says:

    omots,

    To answer (essentially) your first two paragraphs: I had answered this with the comment @ 9:37 this morning: “…it’s clear that some of “The Plan” reads as a negative to the Biblical positive, so to speak — working toward Biblical fulfillment…” which I’ve used the same analogy in the body of the article itself with regard to Rev 12. So, no, it’s not a yin/yang, give/take sort of thing. The Bible is inerrant, unchanging rather than being fluid.

    Regarding your quote of the II Cor 11:4: I agree that some are preaching a different Jesus/gospel and others are following these. Are you inferring that I may be in discussing “The Plan?”

    Bailey/DK/The Tibetan knew(knows) Scripture very well indeed and knows how to twist it to suit Satan’s strategy. Theosophy is an amalgamation of a number of esoteric traditions handed down over the centuries. Yes, there’s nothing new under the sun. However, as just one example, their adherence to panentheism, was not explicitly in Biblical texts; however, once exposed as it is, it’s not difficult to find it in Scripture. I’ve not ever said that there are aspects to The Plan which are foreign to Scripture. Prophecy is Evident in its fulfillment, not in advance. Suppositions can be made; but, nothing definitive.

    You wrote: “Is the above prophecy from Revelation [13:9-10] a part of the Alice Bailey “Plan”, or is it God’s Plan? People are in grave danger when they start confusing the two. In fact, the are in grave danger when they even start looking at the “Bailey Plan” and considering it to be the truth.”

    We can go back even further to the Garden of Eden. Did The Fall in the Garden surprise God? Of course not. Did God pre-plan it? In your view, did God pre-plan the entire Bible or did God know the future and prophesy it? The Bailey “Plan” is only truth in its fulfillment (and, it’s NEVER “Truth” with a capital “T”) — again it’s the negative of the (Biblical) photo.

    No doubt we agree on whom our salvation depends.

    I look forward to your piece on C.S. Lewis, though, I have to confess, I really do not know much about him having read very little of his work. I’ve definitely read more about him than Lewis himself.

  26. cherylu says:

    omots,

    Maybe I have missed something in what you have been writing here and I will admit that I haven’t gone back and reread all of your comments to check.

    But it seems to me that you are missing the major purpose here in why Craig, and others, have looked at the new age writings, and “The Plan” so closely. That reason is that so much of what is happening in the Christian Church as a whole today adheres much more closely to that Plan than it does to Biblical Christianity. And yet the people that are involved in it for the most part think they are following true Christianity. Do you not think it is a worth while and necessary thing to warn people that what they believe is truth is in fact a demonic deception that follows not what God told us to do in His Word, but rather follows a demonically announced Plan?

  27. omots says:

    cherylu, Craig,

    I absolutely agree that it is a “worthwhile and necessary thing to warn people that what they believe is truth is in fact a demonic deception that follows not what God told us to do.” Craig, you and many others, whom I term “Christian Apologists” have done a great job, a faithful job, doing exactly that. I do not criticize you for revealing Bailey’s Plan.

    The problem is we (the church, those called by the name of Jesus) do not know the scriptures, which is our sole (soul) defense and the source of our wisdom. If one knows the scriptures, believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and has received His Holy Spirit, then one should not need to have ever heard of Alice Bailey to discern deception within the Church.

    Who says Bailey’s “Plan” is actually Satan’s (Lucifer’s) grand strategy? Answer: Bailey herself. And we believe her! We believe the words of a woman who renounced Christ and choose to abide with demons! How nice that Lucifer’s entire strategy has been all laid out for us so neatly- There should be no problem defending against it now that we know the entire playbook, right? Good grief, does no one else see a problem with this? Why would anyone try to prove Bailey, or DK, or whatever demonic entity controlled her insane utterances, spoke the truth?

    We are to be wise as serpents, yes, but our wisdom comes from knowing God’s word and growing in Him, not from granting power and authority to demonic babblings, There is something very wrong in trying to prove demonic babblings are “true”, or “partly true”, or are coming to fruition in the Church, or whatever. They are all lies. Plain and simple.

    God’s WORD tells us what to expect within the Church! We don’t need to have Bailey spell it out for us.

  28. Craig says:

    omots,

    Yes, of course, you are right that many do not know the Scriptures well enough to spot deception and it is to their detriment and possible doom. So, I agree with you on this point.

    While I’ve never been to seminary, my understanding is that students must learn a little bit about other religions – not in order to further religious pluralism/false ecumenism, but to know a bit about the false. I see nothing wrong with lay Christians knowing same.

    Spurgeon has said, “Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.” The best lie is an almost truth. I’m sure many have heard about bank tellers studying the REAL hundred dollar bill so that it’s easier to spot the fake. That is wise. However, once a fake is spotted, wouldn’t it be prudent to show other tellers so that it’s even easier to spot the counterfeit in case it’s presented again? It’s similar to the adage: “those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.”

    While God’s Word does let us know what to expect, it does not always give specifics. As one example: in some churches yoga has been deemed harmless as long as one doesn’t do any of the ‘spiritual’ stuff. It’s just stretching, right? Since most Christians submit to other Christians in authority (and submitting to church authority is Biblical), they would assume that if a pastor/teacher says yoga is harmless, then it must be so. However, if they knew that the term “yoga” actually means “union with (the Hindu ‘creator’ god) Brahma” I’m sure most would not walk but run from this stuff!

    I’m not trying to ‘prove Bailey’ — I’m exposing it. Some of “The Plan” is coming to pass, is it not? You cannot deny that. Again, this does not make it Truth as in Biblical Truth; but, yet the part of “The Plan” that has come to pass is then by definition truth (lower case “t”). This is like me declaring that I will go to work tomorrow. If I end up going tomorrow as planned, then my intention is fulfilled, it is thereby proven true. So, from a Biblical perspective, seeing “The Plan” as it unfolds both inside and outside the church exemplifies certain Biblical prophecy coming to fulfillment.

    I guess I’m not really sure exactly what you’re trying to say. You said you don’t criticize me for revealing Bailey’s plan. Yet, you seem to be criticizing me for stating that at last parts of “The Plan” are working to their demonic fulfillment. You say, “They are all lies. Plain and simple” — well yes, they are not Biblical Truths for sure; however, certainly the portions which are working toward fulfillment are not ‘lies’ as Satan and his minions have been diligently working toward these goals!

    Frankly, I don’t see that I’ve been “granting power and authority to demonic babblings.” In showing that something has come or is coming to pass, this is not lending creedence to it. It’s just stating facts. Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews. It was an abominable act; but, it’s historical truth.

  29. cherylu says:

    omots,

    Are you trying to say that if a demon says anything at all about what he is going to do, what he has just said will in no wise come to pass because everything a demon says is a lie?

    If that is what you are saying, I am wondering if you are maybe not looking at demonic deception in a somewhat wrong way. Certainly it may be an outright lie that a demonic entity is going to do exactly what he says. However, as Craig has said, in this case much (or parts) of The Plan do indeed seem to be coming true. I believe the lies and deception they are accomplishing in this case is not saying they are going to do one thing and then doing another. But it is announcing a Plan and following it–a plan that deceives people into believing it is something it is not. A Plan that even many in the church are following–believing it to be God’s truth when instead it is a demonic lie. Do you see the difference?

  30. omots says:

    I apologize for not being able to communicate my thoughts on this any better than I have. This is a really important topic, and one I think we need to spend a lot more time on. Personally, I’m in need of a break, a time of prayer and reflection. So I will just put these final thoughts out for your consideration, and then come back here in a day or two to read your replies, and if you be willing, we can go on from there.

    I believe it is grave error to allow Bailey (or her daemon) to define, or RE-define, the terms. If we do so, we are merely playing her game, her way, her rules, and we’ve lost the battle even before we started.

    Craig, you stated the general definition of theosophy as thus: “1. Any of various philosophies or religious systems that propose to establish direct contact with divine principle through contemplation, revelation, etc. and to gain thereby a spiritual insight superior to empirical knowledge.”

    Well, if that is your operative definition of “Theosophy”, and we all know “Theosophy” is evil, then throw your Bible away, because it is full of “direct contact with divine principle”. The Word of God is full of prayer, which involves “contemplation”. We are encouraged to study and even meditate on God’s WORD, which involves thinking, but also has a contemplative aspect. Faith involves struggling, pleading, running away from, turning back towards, making “direct contact”, and even wrestling at times with God. I don’t know what version you read, but my King James Bible, even with it’s minor translation flaws, contains an incredible amount of “insight superior to empirical knowledge.”

    My point is that by accepting such a definition of “theosophy” we are playing by Bailey’s rules.

    The claim that Bailey’s brand of “Theosophy” has infiltrated “the church” is certainly true, but what church are you talking about? Clearly it is not the church of Jesus Christ, but of those who are merely playing at “church”, the great mass of pretenders. On this last point, I’m leaning a lot more Calvinist, very much along the lines of Spurgeon. There are a lot of “light workers” out there, and many are busy pointing out what’s wrong with “the church”, but they’re not really talking about THE CHURCH. They’re talking about something else entirely and are in error when they call it “the church”. They too, are playing by Bailey’s rules.

  31. Craig says:

    omots,

    Bailey/The Tibetan (DK) had redefined terms and concepts to their own ends/agenda. This does not mean that Christians have to let Bailey redefine theirs.

    The general definition cited for “theosophy” implies mysticism by the words “contemplation, revelation” (contemplative prayer, extra-biblical revelation) and Gnosticism with the words “to gain thereby a spiritual insight superior to empirical knowledge” – the key word being “superior.” This is esotericism. Perhaps you don’t like that particular definition. Perhaps you will like this definition which spells out the mystic aspect: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theosophy

    If you prefer then, let’s work from the ones in the above link which spell out the mysiticism aspect. Fair enough? Clearly, that’s what the Blavatsky/Besant/Bailey Theosophy is all about which is the main point of this article.

    You wrote: “We are encouraged to study and even meditate on God’s WORD, which involves thinking, but also has a contemplative aspect.” Would you agree that David’s claim that he meditated on God’s Word was not in the Eastern mystic way? I’m sure you would. However, Theosophy promotes the Eastern type.

    Yes, Theosophy HAS infiltrated “the church” and I contend that by extension, the Church of Jesus Christ. I think it fair to say that each individual congregation very likely has its tares; and, within these tares are the evil seeds of Theosophy among other things. I’m sure we would agree there are many who go to church (with those of the “Church of Jesus Christ”) whose faith is not secured – those “playing church.” It is THESE folks who are in the most danger of falling into deception (and not just Theosophy); and, it is these folks I would like to reach and save from the fire (Jude 1:23; James 5:19-20). That is the point of this blog post/article and the blog in general. I know – I used to be one of those who “played at church.”

    I’ll allow your response; but, after that, I’m just not sure how fruitful continued discussion/debate along these lines will be. We may just have to agree to disagree.

  32. Sylvia says:

    Craig you are very clear and correct in acknowledging…. “those ‘playing church’ are the folks who are in the most danger of falling into deception”… Since my own eyes were opened I am now seeing it clearly everywhere and it is devastating. It is now so obvious that I can’t think how I missed it, although I knew in my spirit something had gone very wrong. Many people are still sensing something is amiss and are looking for answers, others of course, are still mistaking deception for truth and continue walking in it with gay abandon.
    However blogs like yours are invaluable to the myriad of folks who take the time to ‘google’ in search of unanswered questions. PRAISE GOD for obedient servants of the Lord who do painstaking research in unlocking the truth v deception.
    Imo you in particular have excelled in uncovering ‘subtlety most foul’ that satan himself has embedded into the hearts and minds of the likes of BJ and his ridiculous library etc…etc………….

    So thank you Craig, please keep up the good work, and we here wish you a wonderful Christmas & a very happy new year!

  33. Craig says:

    Sylvia,

    Thanks for your comment and your encouragment. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours as well!

  34. Craig says:

    omots,

    I also wanted to say that exposing “The Plan” provides reference for future material. This article was initially envisioned as one part; however, due to length as I researched and typed, two parts became necessary. In retrospect, I’m happier it came out this way.

    The point within the article was to show how Lucis Trust and the occult had influenced politics, Christianity and pop culture directly and indirectly as outlined in part II. With part I as background it was easier to show the occult/New Age/Theosophical backdrop of Eugene Peterson’s The Message. If I were to just make the statement “Peterson’s The Message is teaching occult” without some kind of proof, readers could quite rightly dismiss this outright. This is why it was important to discuss, for example, the Theosophical ‘Master Jesus’ in order to compare with Peterson’s use of this same term.

    I think it more than coincidence that the germinations of both New Thought (which E W Kenyon, was part of and from which Word of Faith doctrine originates) and Theosophy were roughly contemporaneous. Word of Faith began to take off in the late 1940s / early ’50s with Kenneth E. Hagin much like Latter Rain — which I believe comes in large part from the Bailey teachings — had done. Word of Faith and Latter Rain (or New Order of the Latter Rain) are both parallel AND overlapping polluted streams as they have common elements. Knowing that a particular teacher is promoting Word of Faith doctrine is important; but, IMO, knowing a bit of the occult roots of Word of Faith is more powerful as an apologetic.

  35. cherylu says:

    omots,

    Craig just made this statement: Knowing that a particular teacher is promoting Word of Faith doctrine is important; but, IMO, knowing a bit of the occult roots of Word of Faith is more powerful as an apologetic.

    As someone who came out of the hypercharismatic movement a few years back, I can testify first hand that one of the most powerful things that opened my eyes to the falseness of what was going on there was the fact that not only were these things NOT found in the Bible, but they WERE found in the occult.

    I believe this is an understanding that is lacking for many folks today and is very badly needed. It was other sites like Craig’s that provided me with that information at the time and I will always be thankful for them.

  36. omots says:

    cherylu: AMEN!

    As it is written: Eph 1:5- “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”

    It is NOT about Satan’s will. Satan cannot steal away those who truly belong to God.

    Craig, let’s look at your revised definition of “theosophy”:

    1. any of various forms of philosophical or religious thought based on a mystical insight into the divine nature.

    Again, if you want to use this definition to define “theosophy” rather than the other, that’s fine by me. My point is the same. Please review the 22 scriptures where the word “mystery” is used in the KJV. In all but three places, (if I’m counting right), the word “mystery” refers to the “mystery of God”. In only three places does it refer to the “mystery of iniquity”. When it comes to the concept of “mystery”, the score is God 19, Satan 3. Indeed, even the “mystery of iniquity” cannot be deemed something outside of what God has preordained, which makes it a shut out.

    If one is indeed a follower of Christ, one has been clued in to the ‘mystery’ of God. As it is written: “Having made known unto us the ‘mystery’ of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.” Eph 1:9-12

    “And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the ‘mystery’ of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:” Mar 4:11

    The word “without”, in this case means: excluded. That would certainly apply to Alice Bailey, would you agree?

    According to the various dictionary definitions, the words “mystery” and “mystical” are synonymous.

    Mystical: (Free Online Dictionary)

    1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
    2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
    3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
    4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
    5. Unintelligible; cryptic.

    Mystical: (Merriam- Webster)

    a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence

    Mystery: (Merriem-Webster)

    1 a : a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand

    2 a : something not understood or beyond understanding : enigma

    3 : profound, inexplicable, or secretive quality or character

    I’m not arguing over words. I’m arguing over divine authority. We are talking about concepts here, not picking at technicalities. Bailey has no authority to deceive or steal, except what God has granted her.

    In my “Crooked Crosses” series, (which I assume you read), I described my time living with a Chippewa shaman. Some would think that my sharing a sweat lodge with an evil demonic shaman while he called out to his demonic “guardians” put me in grave spiritual danger. As a brand new Christian, one who accepted and began following Jesus as my Lord and Savior only a year earlier, it would have been quite normal to think I was a vulnerable little sheep about to be easily devoured by a cunning old wolf. But that thought never crossed my mind. If it had, I would have probably run for my life! While I certainly would not recommend doing what I did, the truth is that it was the shaman who was in grave spiritual danger, not me. I remained steadfast while that evil deceiver died just a few years later, his eternal fate firmly sealed.

    Here is truth:

    Exd 18:11: “Now I know that the LORD [is] greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly [he was] above them.”

    1Jo 4:4: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”

    That shaman dealt treacherously with me, but one thing I know for sure, greater was HE that was in this child of God than he that is in the whole world.

    I have no problem with someone pointing out that Bailey dealt proudly with the “church”. What I do have a problem with is leaving out the fact that God is above her.

  37. Craig says:

    omots,

    Watch it, your Calvin’s showing… I don’t wish to turn this into a Calvinism/Arminianism debate. But, I would like you to answer the question I posed earlier: In your view, did God pre-plan the entire Bible or did God know the future and prophesy it (from our persective as given to us through the prophets)? If Satan cannot steal away those who truly belong to God, then what is the point of preaching the Gospel, let alone putting forth apologetics?

    The word “mystery” (from the Greek transliterated musterion) is primarily used to show that the former “mystery” of God was revealed in Christ. It is no longer a mystery for the believer. Paul especially used it as a way of illustrating to those who were formerly a part of the “mystery religions” that the mystery is now revealed! This is similar to what he did on Mars Hill (Acts 17). I’ll quote from the NIV Study Bible note on Colossians 1:26:

    …This word was a popular, pagan religious term, used in the mystery religions to refer to secret information available only to an exclusive group of people [Gnosticism]. Paul changes that meaning radically by always combining it with words such as “disclosed” (here), “made known” (Eph 1:9), “make plain” (Eph 3:9) and “revelation” (Ro 16:25). The Christian mystery is not secret knowledge for a few. It is a revelation of divine truths — once hidden but now openly proclaimed.

    Therefore, the word “mystery” as used in the Bible is not synonymous with “mysticism.” I stand by my (re)definition of “theosophy” which falls into the “Theosophy” of Blavatsky/Besant/Bailey. Theosophy is a ‘mystery religion;’ Christianity is not.

    I agree that Bailey and those who follow her are “without” as you asked above.

    You and I both agree that God is omnipotent and over all. I’ve not once said that Bailey/The Plan is either equal to or greater than God. In fact, in the comments here I’ve stated the contrary. I’m going to ask you to cease your comments along these lines as this is going nowhere.

    God has apparently given Bailey/The Plan some amount of authority — much like He did Satan in the Book of Job. Much like he gave Satan in the Garden of Eden. Job and Adam & Eve had a choice. Job chose wisely. Adam & Eve — not so much.

  38. omots says:

    Craig, you’ve asked me to answer your question AND you’ve asked me to cease my comments. If I were to answer your question it would have to be along the same line of reasoning that you have stated you don’t want to hear anymore. Perhaps you will consider doing a blog post here regarding pre-destination vs. free will. That would be awesome.

    One cannot separate the Word of God from prophecy, nor the Word of God from Jesus. But I will not try to answer your questions with my own reasoning, but with scripture and leave it at that. (Note: the scriptures I quoted in my earlier comments also apply.) The only problem I’m facing is limited space, as is hard to pick out just a few.

    “Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.” Luke 3:2

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
    John 1: 1-5

    “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.” Mat 18:11
    (all have sinned)

    “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” John 6:65
    (those chosen for redemption)

    “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.” John 17:24

    “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that THOU GAVEST ME I have kept, and NONE OF THEM IS LOST, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

    “But WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK INTO PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Hebrews 10:39

    “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” Mat 19:29

    “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21

    “And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.” Rev 19:10

    “Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” Rev 22:7

  39. Craig says:

    omots,

    I wasn’t asking you not to comment at all, I was asking you to no longer make the accusation that I’m promoting “The Plan” as if it were on par with scripture or God which I’ve never done. It was in the context of this paragraph:

    You and I both agree that God is omnipotent and over all. I’ve not once said that Bailey/The Plan is either equal to or greater than God. In fact, in the comments here I’ve stated the contrary. I’m going to ask you to cease your comments along these lines as this is going nowhere.

    I did want you to answer the question as posed in the first paragraph of that comment; but, I did not want to turn this thread into a Calvinism/Arminianism debate. I’ll consider your request for a predestination/free will blog post.

    I’ll rephrase the question: is there a point in presenting the Gospel and/or apologetics if all are predestined as either heaven bound or hell bound? You mentioned earlier that you thought it was good to expose “The Plan.” Why expose it if individuals are predestined? How do you reconcile these apparent contradictions?

    As for the Scripture you cite, I’m sure you realize there are others which can be used which seem to contradict (some) of them (not that I believe Scripture is contradictory). It’s interesting you use Hebrews 10:39 without adding the preceding verses beginning in 26 to put into its full context.

  40. mbaker says:

    omots,

    Like others here, I am not understanding your objection. No one has claimed that Alice Bailey’s plan or the New World Order’s will be successful or superior over God’s. For the life of me, I cannot see where that is even inferred in this article. It is simply a factual comparison of some of the New Age/theosophy teachings with some of those permeating certain sections of the church nowadays.

    Yes, AB’s ‘plan’ and that of others who promote the NAR have wormed their way into some of the more liberal elements of the church, but isn’t this exactly the type of false teaching prophesied in the Bible that Christians are told to on the lookout for? It seems smarter to me and more obedient to God’s word to heed the warning signs we are being given before it’s too late.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with whether we prefer Calvinism or Armianism, but is a biblical mandate for all believers.

  41. omots says:

    Craig,

    None who belong to Christ Jesus will be lost in the “great apostasy”.

    You did not ask me one question, but at least three, which I’ve tried my best to answer using scripture. Perhaps we need to go back to that first Bailey quote:

    “I would really render a service if I could show people how I became what I am from what I was. It might be useful to know how a rabid orthodox Christian worker could become a well-known occult teacher.” [1]

    This quote goes to the heart of the discussion. A study of salvation doctrine reveals a past, present, and future tense component. I believe in “once saved, always saved”, which means that although my salvation occurred at the moment I believed, that moment was known and preordained before the very beginning, and will be proved/promise fullfilled in the future. God is completely outside of the time domain. God created time. He sees/knows the beginning and the end and everything in between.

    It is my contention that Bailey, although calling herself a former “rabid orthodox Christian worker” did not lose her salvation because she was never really “saved” in the first place. Bailey never really belonged to Christ. She was merely a pretender, and as you have rightly pointed out in your series on Bill Johnson, there are many other pretenders out there. The usefulness of apologetics is that it exposes the pretenders, exercises discernment regarding false teachers and false doctrine, which helps build faith in the faithful

    Does hearing that Bill Johnson’s doctrines are false “save” anyone? No! It saves no one. As others have pointed out here, they were once (like me, you) following along with the crowd, but when they heard the truth, something profound happened. What apologetic’s does is splash cold water on some faces, turning those who will be turned back to the truth. Those who are in Christ were in Christ since the beginning, and although many may be wearing ear muffs and sunglasses, when they finally do hear the truth, they know the truth. Alice Bailey has no power to condemn people, and we have no power to save people. We are to preach the truth, defend the faith, salvation is up to the Lord.

    You made a point about the two witnesses of Revelation being “overcome” by the beast. Yet you left out the part about those two being resurrected in verse 11:11.

    You wrote:

    “Regardless of one’s view of the Revelation 11 witnesses, it is clear in verse 11 that they are overcome by the “beast” rather than remaining part of the “victorious Church”.”

    Like all Christian martyrs who have been “overcome by the beast” in times past, those who have been crucified, burned at the stake, or beheaded for their faith…those two witnesses did not lose their salvation, but proved it. Those two witnesses very much remained a part of the “victorious Church”. Those two witnesses are “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” Rev 11:4. Those two were saved from the beginning, and even now sit before the throne of God.

    The Bailey Doctrine cannot “overcome” believers and remove them from the “victorious Church”. If that is your premise, you are wrong.

  42. omots says:

    Rev 11:11 ¶ And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    Overcome? Hardly.

  43. Craig says:

    omots,

    I’ll address up to the two witnesses in this comment saving that for my response to your subsequent comment.

    I’m glad you addressed Bailey’s words which begin this article as I wanted to discuss it but, it’s a bit outside the scope of my intent in the article. We are largely in agreement, it seems. I’ve somewhat recently softened my stance on the “once saved, always saved” as I believe a person can willfully cast aside their fate [I've just re-read this and see that "fate" is a poor word to use. I should have used "salvation" instead. However, I want to leave my original word and show my correction for the reader who has already read my comment.] and thus “trample the Son of God underfoot” and “treat as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him” insulting the “Spirit of grace” [Hebrews 10:29]. OTOH, I see Bailey in 1 John 2:19:

    The went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. [NIV]

    I touch on the fact of God being outside of time as we know it in the brief article A Different Time. I hope you’ll read it.

    Thanks for giving your thoughts on the benefit of apologetics and salvation. You wrote, “We are to preach the truth, defend the faith, salvation is up to the Lord.” AMEN to that!

  44. Craig says:

    The reason I put the “victorious Church” in quotes is that this is the belief of International House of Prayer’s Mike Bickle as evidenced in his peculiar brand of eschatology he terms “Apostolic Premillennialism.” He believes the “Church” will “release the tribulation” and be victorious over the antichrist and forces of evil. From the link provided in the article:

    Jesus is building a Church that will triumph over the powers of hell (Mt. 16:18). Mike defines the role believers will have at the end of the age, when the Church will be victorious, walking in unity, intimacy with God, and maturity.

    I agree with you that the two witnesses will be victorious in the manner you describe.

  45. julie says:

    This discussion has been repeated in my own home numerous times, and fails to reach a satisfactory end, BECAUSE, as I am explaining what I believe to be the devil’s plan (lower case ‘d’ for devil) in conjunction with God’s revealed word (capital ‘G’ for God) – what my family members hear is – the Devil has a plan (upper case “D”) which somehow places him on equal footing with god (lower case ‘g’) – and the discussion deteriorates from that point on.

    Of course the enemy has a plan and a method for carrying that plan out. Of course God is supreme and nothing happens without his knowing it in advance.

    Don’t know if this makes sense to anyone but me, but I thought I’d throw it out there.

  46. Craig says:

    julie,

    I like the way you’ve reduced the discussion down and simplified it; so, yes, it makes perfect sense to me the way you presented it. God knows those who will never be saved, those who will wander from the truth and come back, and those who will stand firm never wavering. We don’t have this knowledge. And, we don’t know the wheat from the tares and we are not to attempt to separate them from one another. From this, I say, we heed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Luke 24:47) by:

    1) Preaching the Good News (the Gospel) by showing the bad news (our fallen sinful condition) and thereby stressing the need for repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior AND Lord.

    2) Teaching sound doctrine in order to disciple and help the saved grow in their knowledge of Christ and His Word and therefore be more immune to the deception of seducing spirits.

    3) Putting forth apologetics to help the saved and the unsaved see how Christianity is attacked both from without and within.

  47. Craig says:

    julie,

    Unfortunately, the prevailing view in hyper-charismaticism is that since God is more powerful than Satan, then Christians should have no concern over the supernatural as God will protect His flock. Unfortunately, this overlooks the fact that the Bible is replete with cautions regarding deception. As but one example, the very first words of Jesus in answering the disciples question concerning the end of the age in the Olivet Discourse are “Watch out that no one deceives you.” [Matthew 24:4 NIV] This theme of being watchful of deception and false christs, false prophets, etc. is continued throughout the Discourse.

  48. omots says:

    Craig,

    Thanks for the opportunity to discuss these things with you. I have been challenged to work and think and pray. Nobody sees everything 100% clearly, and we can all benefit from another’s viewpoint. It is a bit frustrating though, not to be able to sit and talk with you face to face, where I’m sure we’d quickly discover we are actually in agreement 99% of the time. But even with the limitations of written comments and blogs, this is what Christian fellowship is supposed to be about. As you well know, most of our modern churches are very weak in this area. We send out prayer requests like a daily “to do” list, yet often neglect teaching sound doctrine, exposing false teachers, and discussing the great things of God. You are providing a valuable service here, keep it up.

  49. Craig says:

    omots,

    Thanks for the kind words. Yes, no one sees everything perfectly except for the Godhead. That’s why, as you state, it’s important to interact with the rest of the body of Christ. And, I believe you’re right that you and I likely agree most of the time.

    The written word here in the blogosphere is limited in that there’s not the immediate back and forth interaction and the ability to see non-verbal cues. In general, it sometimes becomes tilted towards the ones who may be more gifted with the written word and hence unfair to those who are not. But, we all do the best we can!

  50. Craig says:

    Last night I visited a local privately owned bookstore for the first time in many years. They have recently relocated so the store is in a bit of disarray. Not being familiar with the layout I asked for the “religion” section to which the employee asked: “Christian or Eastern?” I told her I’d look at Christian first but that I wanted to look at Eastern as well for research. She showed me the Christian section which had Judaism and Islam in the same general area. When I went to the Eastern section, it was labelled “New Age.”

    It didn’t dawn on me until I went to check out that the store could be owned by New Agers; but, it was made clear as I saw “healing stones” by the register. And, it didn’t occur to me until today that the grouping of the 3 monotheistic faiths together yet separate from the other religions AND labelling all the others as New Age was playing right in to the Alice Bailey idea as expressed in the quotes and verbiage at endnotes 35-37.

    At least I found a Bailey book I had been looking for on the cheap PLUS a used Christian book as well at a good price. This was after scoring two good deals at yet another local used bookstore.

  51. Sylvia says:

    Craig, maybe it’s time for you to write a book ;).

    You could classify it as new age, and when hungry new agers buy it and read, they will be enlightened and turn to the real Jesus in repentance. Just a thought…………

    HAPPY NEW YEAR!

  52. Craig says:

    Sylvia,

    That’s an interesting concept for a book. I don’t think I’m quite ready for that, though as I’ve much to learn about the New Age/New Spirituality.

    Happy New Year and you and yours!

    And Happy New Year to all!

  53. cherylu says:

    I just want to say Happy New Year to all of you too! I hope it is a fruitful one for all of us in the Lord.

  54. Craig says:

    This new article “Christ” in the New Age expounds a bit on this material.

  55. Craig says:

    I’ve mentioned elsewhere on CrossWise that I grew up listening to all sorts of music and it carried over into my adult life as an idol. I still recall quite a bit of info from all my hours and hours of music listening. Today, the music to the Led Zeppelin tune “Kashmir” came into my mind and I decided to look up the lyrics. Here’s the first verse:

    Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
    I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
    To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen
    They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed

    Wow. Quite a bit of esoterica in this. This is not surprising as the band’s work is permeated with Satanic influence since at least a few of the members were Aleister Crowley devotees. Guitarist Jimmy Page once owned a house formerly owned by Crowley:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleskine_House

    Going back to the “Kashmir” lyrics. The 2nd line is obviously about astral travel. The “elders” of the 3rd and 4th most certainly are the same “Masters of Wisdom” of whom Bailey/The Tibetan speak. So, what are the “days for which they sit and wait” at which point “all will be revealed”? Like the title to one Bailey’s books, it’s the Externalisation of the Hierarchy.

    From the article (Misplaced Trust, part I):

    “The intent as evident in the title of the book, The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, is to take the current “internal” spiritual hierarchy (in the spirit realm) and ‘externalize’ it on the physical plane.[24] In other words, the goal is to take the demons from the spirit world and bring them physically to earth ushering in the antichrist and the end of the age!”

  56. desean says:

    Craig,
    I have been following your blog for awhile now. This is the direction that my former church is going. The ‘pastor’ of that church posted this article on their blog:

    “Nearly 43 years ago, The 5th Dimension busted the airwaves with the original single recording of “The Age of Aquarius” which became the first medley to top the American pop charts and finished at #57 on Billboard’s “Greatest Songs of All Time.”

    Now, the buzz is back as we witness the 25,000 year “resetting” of the Mayan’s “GREAT YEAR” calendar – the procession of the earth’s vernal equinox through the 12 constellations of the Zodiac. As we move out of the “Age of Pisces” (The Fish) and into the “Age of Aquarius” (The Heavenly Water-bearer) there is no shortage of opinions as to what’s up! To the flower children of the 60’s, the Age of Aquarius represented a New Age of universal peace and love!

    The Mayans (and Aztecs) were expecting the return of Kukulcan (or Quetzalcoatl) – the feathered serpent god – to rule the earth. Satanist Aleister Crowley hoped for the end of the age of Christ, and the beginning of the Luciferian Age. Free-masons, Illuminists and secret societies world-wide are looking for a New Age world leader to end the influence of the “Christian” age.

    The Muslims, on the other hand, are looking for the world to be “washed” in the blood of infidels (non-Muslims) – to prepare the way for the coming of the 12th Imam and Allah’s world-wide rule. The Really Good News? Could the “Age of Aquarius” be the dawning of the Millennial Age of Christ ruling and reigning in the earth?!! (Revelations 11:15).”

    In his message to the church he stated it emphatically that we were in the Millennial Age. So very thankful that God graciously got me out of there, desean

  57. Craig says:

    desean,

    Thanks for sharing this. In case you are not aware, Constance Cumbey, in her first book The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow reported that on April 25, 1982 full page advertisements were taken out in large newspapers around the world stating “THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE”. Here’s the actual text:

    THE WORLD HAS HAD ENOUGH…OF HUNGER, INJUSTICE, WAR.
    IN ANSWER TO OUR CALL FOR HELP, AS WORLD TEACHER FOR ALL HUMANITY,
    THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE.
    HOW WILL WE RECOGNIZE HIM?

    Look for a modern man concerned with modern problems – political, economic, and social. Since July, 1977, the Christ has been emerging as a spokesman for a group or community in a well-known modern country. He is not a religious leader, but an educator in the broadest sense of the word – pointing the way out of our present crisis. We will recognize Him by His extraordinary spiritual potency, the universality of His viewpoint, and His love for all humanity. He comes not to judge but to aid and inspire.

    WHO IS THE CHRIST?

    Throughout history, humanity’s evolution has been guided by a group of enlightened men, the Masters of Wisdom. They have remained largely in the remote desert and mountain places of earth, working mainly through their disciples who live openly in the world. This message of Christ’s reappearance has been given primarily by such a disciple trained for his task for over 20 years. At the center of this “Spiritual Hierarchy” stands the World Teacher, LORD MAITREYA, known by Christians as the CHRIST. And as Christians await the Second Coming, so the Jews await the MESSIAH, the Buddhists, the FIFTH BUDDHA, the Moslems the IMAM MAHDI, and the Hindus await KRISHNA. These are all names for one individual. His presence in the world guarantees there will be no third World War. [p 13-14; bold in last paragraph added.]

    And, it continues on.

    A hallmark of those furthering New Age / New World Order agendas is the ‘manufacture’ of crises out of which comes pre-packaged “solutions”.

  58. Craig says:

    I’ve just added the full page advertisement “THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE” placed in prominent newspapers around the world on April 25, 1982, as found on the back of Constance Cumbey’s book The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow.

  59. Arwen4CJ says:

    Thanks, Craig. I’ll have to look into getting my hands on Constance Cumbey’s book.

  60. Craig says:

    I just re-uploaded, this time with a cleaner, better scan.

  61. just1ofhis says:

    Arwen,
    Thanks for the link (and Craig, thanks for the recommendation). I started reading last night…interesting!

  62. Craig says:

    Actually, I first read Cumbey’s first book back in the late ’80s – BEFORE I was a Christian. It was lent to me by a man who was witnessing to me at the time. I wasn’t ready to accept the Christian faith for a number of reasons, but I DID have this feeling that Cumbey was right. I ended up buying the book some time in the ’90s, again, before my conversion. All during that time, I recognized New Age influence in many different places; however, mostly I found it in music, which was very important in my life. It was in the lyrics, the notes accompanying the album, the artwork, etc. I heard a lot of Eastern influence in music, which I now think is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, which was many times accompanied with New Age tinged lyrics. This kept gnawing at me.

    When I eventually accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, I didn’t think much more about the New Age. I was having a lot of personal difficulties which became nearly all-consuming. After things settled for me, I really didn’t give the New Age stuff much thought. However, when I was first introduced to hyper-charismaticism, the thoughts came back. Then, slowly, I began to see some things that seemed like they could be New Age. Thus began my earnest search of both the teachings/practices of hyper-charismaticism and a concurrent study of occult/esoteric/New Age doctrine (and proper Scripture interpretation!).

  63. just1ofhis says:

    Craig,
    Music is also very important to me. Although my background in music was classical, in my pre-saved days I helped market a heavy metal band. Even then, the LORD was working on my heart with this. I remember attending a smaller concert with the band I was helping with to check out the venue. I had witnessed many aweful things, but what I saw on the floor (they called it a mosh pit) terrified me. The kids (they were mostly late teen, early twenties) were dancing around in circles, convulsing. I won’t bother describing the rest, but it was very disturbing. These kids were worshiping satan and handing their bodies over to demonic possession. I was out of the environment quickly after that.

    I have witnessed the same thing from videos of youth at Bethel among other places.

    Music can be a wonderful addition to worship, but what we have as our model is the Psalms. These are not mindless, endlessly repetitive lyrics; but they are lyrics that praise God, tell a story, talk about His mighty deliverance, etc.

    In my heavy metal days, I had a friend who was deeply into the band Stryper (the so-called “Christian” heavy metal band). I attended a concert with this person and witnessed the same garbage that I did at every other heavy metal concert. If they were talking about “jesus”, you couldn’t understand it. Bad fruit…

    Our test is the fruit of the thing. If the music is putting people in a trance, leading them to convulsing on the floor, or any other such thing…it is of satan.

  64. Craig says:

    just1ofhis,

    I appreciate your comments. I understand your concern with music. But, the way I see it, it’s up to the individual to allow themselves to be put into a trance or trance-like state (and hyper-charismatic music is set up exactly for this). However, a person can go into a trance by listening to the droning of an air conditioning unit. A person can go into a trance through TM. The music itself is not bad, as music isn’t inherently evil or good. One can set the tune of Amazing Grace to the most horrific, demonic lyrics, for example. And, the music behind the shark attack scenes in the movie Jaws is not evil, but it does well in evoking a sense of impending doom/horror!

    In my BC (before Christ) days, I’d only been to a relatively few concerts (considering the amount of music I’d listened to); but, for a time I used to go almost every weekend to watch small local bands, mainly punk or alternative in dive bars. I’ve seen all kinds of stuff including the mosh pits, of course. I saw the band Sonic Youth (very dark) in Austin circa ’89/’90 in which the guitarists started using screwdrivers as substitutes for picks! Also, I used to go to dance clubs which played different types of dance music, some of which just played the very alternative type of music of the time with folks sort of zoning out on the dance floor, obviously high. I was an outsider as I never did any drugs and didn’t drink all that much. But, it was all interesting to watch.

    But, the rock/punk/etc. concerts themselves didn’t much appeal to me as usually the band could not be heard very well and, even if so, there’s too much audience noise/annoyances. I didn’t come to ‘party'; I came to listen and to enjoy the art. I’ve not attended any rock-type show since conversion. Jazz and classical concerts are/were much better!

    I’ve seen/heard some fantastic acoustic jazz, symphonies, chamber music ensembles, etc. While jazz makes up the bulk of my collection and classical about the least, I probably have more classical than a lot of folks have in their entire music collection. This includes mostly newer, 19th and 20th century composers (Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Part, plus other more ‘modern’), but also includes Bach, Beethoven, Mozart. However, I confess that I don’t care for much of the more popular pieces (If I never hear Eine Kleine Nachtmusik again, I’d be quite happy!).

    The last music I saw live was 6 years ago, which while played in a very small decrepit venue (I don’t even recall if it was a bar or not – don’t think so); but, it was probably the best show I’d ever seen. It was a jazz quartet (alto sax, trumpet, bass, drums) which included two world-class musicians in the bassist (William Parker) and drummer (Hamid Drake). I marveled at the drummer who played polyrhythms fast yet fluid and seemingly effortlessly!

    Anyway, I don’t discount the concerns in music (and culture) in general. In part II of this series is a section titled “New Age / New Spirituality in Contemporary Culture” in which I get into specifics about different individuals in different types of music. Some I still very much respect as musicians are/were very much led astray in their beliefs. But, it doesn’t change the fact that they can PLAY! The same could be said for many professional athletes. Yet, that is totally understandable, as many do not know God. However, this doesn’t preclude Christians from being professional athletes, musicians, etc. if they are so gifted and it’s God’s will for them. Nor, IMO, does it preclude Christians from enjoying some of the art or sports by these non-believers. What matters is whether it’s an idol for the individual or not.

  65. Craig says:

    I should also add that there are certain genres of music in which I cannot find good qualities. I have heard (and have had) some of the most extreme in rock music. There is a certain metal, death metal, in which the music is especially dark and the lyrics match (or surpass) the music. There is(was) hardcore punk (usually just termed ‘hardcore’), which was really just faster, heavier, rawer (and sometimes louder) punk music. While not all the lyric content was actually bad – as some were just commenting on socio-economic themes – a lot of it was. To many fans, these types of music are/were meant to be used as catharsis. But, no doubt, some used this music as a vehicle or backdrop for their own depravity.

    Even the band Black Flag, which began as one of the most extreme of the hardcore bands, had lyric content which, though certainly not Christian, advocated sobriety and ‘good’ living This happened a bit later when Henry Rollins became lead vocalist and sometime lyric writer. (This is despite the fact that Rollins didn’t mind using profanity and screaming his lyrics.) But, Rollins did not ‘party’, instead he went to the gym. However, Rollins is one INTENSE dude.

    Interestingly, about a half dozen or so years ago, I recall seeing ‘Christian’ bands play this sort of stuff on TV. Sorry, it doesn’t work. You can’t scream “JESUS” and expect this to be glorifying or edifying.

  66. just1ofhis says:

    “But, the way I see it, it’s up to the individual to allow themselves to be put into a trance or trance-like state (and hyper-charismatic music is set up exactly for this).”

    I would agree with you completely on this regarding mature adults. I think children are a different story, though. They are so much more suggestable, especially when it is trusted adults doing the suggesting. It is alluring by design. I have confidence that you or I could listen to Jesus Culture and the greatest danger to us might be a severe case of boredom or annoyance. The same way we could listen to Rob Bell and see quickly through the lies.

    But children, especially those who are not firmly rooted in scripture, are much more vulnerable than you or I. Many of them haven’t matured beyond a desire to be accepted by their peers, and the “beautiful people” of “so-called christian music” seem to have it all. If a young person is standing around a group of their peers rocking back and forth in a stupified state or shaking uncontrollable or anything else, they are very likely to mimic the behavior out of nothing more than a desire to fit in. And that very willingness to “go along” leads them into trouble. I’ve listened to testimony from adults who fell “slain in the spirit”, because they didn’t want to be left out. How much more easily are children led astray?

    I don’t know the answer short of equipping our children in the Word of God and praying faithfully for their protection. Clearly, we are not the “music police”. The level of deception is great, however; and popular culture with the name ‘jesus’ attached seems particularly dangerous to me.
    What comes to my mind is the tale of the Pied Piper.

  67. just1ofhis says:

    Speaking of the Pied Piper: (taken from wiki)

    Swedish band ABBA’s song “The Piper”, from the 1980 album Super Trouper, compares a rock star with the legendary Pied Piper.

    Led Zeppelin’s classic “Stairway To Heaven”, recorded in 1970 for the Led Zeppelin IV album, mentions the Piper in two verses: “If we all call the tune, then the piper will lead us to reason”, and “Your head is humming and it won’t go in case you don’t know the piper’s calling you to join him”

    Genesis mentions the Piper in the song “Supper’s Ready” from their album Foxtrot in the verse: “With the guards of Magog, swarming around, The Pied Piper takes his children underground”

  68. just1ofhis says:

    So beautiful, so alluring…..

  69. Craig says:

    The lyrics to Stairway to Heaven are steeped in the occult. In fact, I threw away all my Zeppelin records, as the lead-out grooves (between the outer perimeter of the label and end of grooves) on one of their vinyl records read “to mote be it” which is a way to end/cast a spell – sort of like saying “amen” at the end of a prayer.

    I’ll take exception to the Genesis lyrics, though. I’m quite familiar with that piece, Supper’s Ready, as it’s steeped in metaphors, many from Scripture. It’s basically about the Apocalypse/tribulation. The reference to the Pied Piper is a reference to the horrors of this time. The lines following that are:

    The Dragon’s coming out of the sea
    with shimmering silver head of wisdom looking at me
    he brings down the fire from the sky
    you can tell he’s doing well by the look in human eyes
    you better not compromise – it won’t be easy

    It’s a depiction of the things in Revelation 13. Of course, Peter Gabriel, the lyricist is taking artistic license with this, something with which I don’t agree. But, it’s not glorifying the occult; it’s merely describing the events of the end time in a more colorful way. Gabriel had a penchant for writing about things to come in a very imaginative way, as witness the lyrics to “Watcher of the Skies” from the same album. It’s not demonic; it’s creative. But, I concede it’s not specifically Christian either, though that should be no surprise. Unfortunately, it seems Gabriel may well have moved over into the New Age camp. But, I submit that many are unwittingly involved.

  70. just1ofhis says:

    I believe, Craig, that most of them are unwittingly involved. Hence the prayer, “Father, forgive them. They do not know what they do.” And that is what I pray for all of these in truth. And I thank Him for those who prayed for me when I was in the same state.

  71. Craig says:

    I suppose when we fully consider it and boil it all down, all are unwittingly involved; that is, they must be deceived into thinking it’s the right way to go. There’s absolutely no way anyone (no one sane, anyway) would consider to choose the “broad path to destruction” knowing that their future will be in a literal lake of fire to be tormented for eternity. No one would choose that.

    “They know not what they do.”

  72. just1ofhis says:

    I always liked Phil Collins. Just for fun:

    The Tarzan soundtrack was one of my personal favorites. In case anyone is worried about the lyrics, they are:

    Zabwe dap dooby doo Zap a da dee dop zwe bop, Zwee Dap Zee Doo.
    Zabwe dap zooby dooby do zee zap dee doo,

    This is repeated 5 or 6 times
    The last 2 lines after that are

    Zooby zoo Zabby zob zwee dap zwee
    Zwe Dap zwe doo,
    Zabwe dap sooby doo dapa swee wab zee doo da ba doo dz ba da ba doo Zwe Dap Zwe
    doo

  73. Craig says:

    Ah well, I always preferred Peter Gabriel; and, the Peter Gabriel era of Genesis (with Phil Collins on drums and very occasional lead vocal and some background vocals) I deem the best. After Gabriel left, the band went in a more overtly ‘pop’ direction (save the first one, and only a bit so on the second). I very much like Peter Gabriel’s first four solo records (especially the 3rd, known as ‘Melt’). Gabriel was especially adept at adopting a persona in his lyrics, some of which were dark with the characters suffering from psychoses of different sorts. Certainly not the type of stuff for dinner parties.

    Phil Collins was a decent drummer, playing in the jazz/rock outfit Brand X in the ’70s, while also in Genesis. (Interestingly, their first record was titled “From Genesis to Revelation”, yet the album didn’t have much in the way of Biblical themes (Collins was not yet part of the band back then).)

    Sadly, I know much more about music and music trivia than theology, given the extreme prominence it once had in my life, as well as the relatively short time I’ve been a Christian.

  74. thelonelychristian says:

    It’s interesting that I find a music discussion here, as this is a subject that’s bothered me for a long time. (Oh, and, hello all.) I suspect that any insight or opinions I receive would likely dissolve at some point under the possible realization that the Holy Spirit may simply want a different level of separation for me than for someone else, but I would still appreciate the input.

    I’ve previously heard the idea that music itself cannot be defined as good or evil. I ask, what about the creator’s intent or personality? Does a person’s motivation or purpose in making a certain piece of music, or even their character, influence or even corrupt said music? I don’t know if my logic is sorely misguided, but here are a few examples of the (admittedly sometimes paranoid) rationale I’ve taken in eliminating various pieces of music from my collection:

    –Tchaikovsky used to be one of my favorite composers, until I came across an article insinuating the possibility that he, among others, demonically channeled their work. (I can’t for the life of me find this article anymore; it did cite sources and contain footnotes, but that’s moot since I lost it.) I read a similar circumstance for Gershwin’s Rhapsody in Blue (specifically, that it was “received” practically intact in the mind).
    –Claude Debussy was supposedly once the head of the Priory of Sion.
    –Mozart composed several pieces for Freemasonic rituals, and later became a Freemason himself.
    –Orchestral soundtracks were by far my favorite type of music and made up the majority of my collection, until I began to feel convicted that these works were done to glorify and promote films that are ungodly, some profoundly so, in numerous ways. Even if I’d never seen the films and the music was heard out of context, I still felt I was supporting Hollywood just by enjoying them. If a film glorifies violence, adultery, witchcraft, blasphemy by insinuating alien life, etc., then I felt the music was as equally guilty as the dialogue and images on the screen. (Perhaps think of it this way: if I had never seen the Twilight movies but listened to their soundtracks–which are probably vapidly heinous, ugh, but I honestly have no idea–how uncomfortable would that make you feel?)

    Out of this type of reasoning, I wound up ejecting almost my entire music library. No matter what, for some of it I do feel it was and still is the right thing to do, for obvious reasons such as having pirated some tracks, and also because I had an extreme emotional connection to some pieces. Retaining them would have repeatedly exposed my mind to imagery that I used to conjure up for my lusts during my unsaved years, and that’s just too blatantly tempting, disobedient, and stupid. However, there is a certain percentage that I remain on the fence about. Let’s just say I have an insufferable taste for “epic” music. (I’ve sometimes wondered if all that cliched grammatically incorrect Latin choral gibberish they often throw in really IS harmless gibberish or if it contains any sneaky subversive messages…) I question if I’m being wickedly selfish against my Lord by clinging to a desire to keep some music I’ve eliminated but could restore if I chose, or if I’m just being a self-flagellating drama queen and it’s not that big of a deal if I listened to them once in a while. I know none of us will carry these musical pastimes into eternity, that’s for sure…but then, neither will hypothetical Pastor Bob take his golf hobby with him, and that’s no sin. (Well, unless someone counts boredom as a sin… :) )

    What say you all? Am I just nuts, or just personally convicted, or…let’s face it, I may just be nuts. Don’t be afraid to say it.

    On a side note, I was rather skeptical of one Christian author’s opinion that, when it comes to the Contemporary Christian Music debate, classical music is always a safe bet because it’s basically more refined and unlikely to stimulate anyone’s lusts. That’s quite a naive statement. I think there are plenty of classical and orchestral pieces that can easily incite lust. For example, some of Ravel’s pieces are very romantic and sensual. So is Méditation from Thaïs. Just because some music is old and purely instrumental does not automatically insulate it from swelling human passions, potentially to the point of sin. (I suppose that previous sentence might give credence to an argument that by being neutral, music can only become “evil” by a person’s own thoughts and actions…) I daresay that, for myself, classical or instrumental music actually moves me more than lyrical music, unless it’s a good doctrinal Christian hymn–then I’ll be close to weeping. That’s actually rather embarrassing, considering that reading the Word of God doesn’t budge a tear out of me.

  75. Craig says:

    thelonelychristian,

    Thanks for coming by and offering your perspective. My opinion is that one’s acceptance or rejecting of any kind of music will have to be a matter of personal conviction or subjective choice. Yet, we have to consider our own personal motivations for doing so. Your points are well made: Is it by some ascetic notion I’m rejecting this [see Col 2:8,20-23]? Am I keeping this music because of the emotional high I get by listening to it (and is that even bad in and of itself?); and, is this emotional high leading me to sinful thoughts?

    I’ve not read what you have about Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Mozart, etc., but, I suppose, any of all of these could be true. I mention some specific examples of this sort of thing regarding rock/pop and jazz music in part II (I will be placing a comment over there in a bit as it seems more appropriate over there):

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/misplaced-trust-part-ii/

    But, does this mean we must reject all the music by an individual who may (or may not) have been under some ungodly influence? I dunno. Can one differentiate whether one piece of music by a composer/player is under some sort of demonic power from one which isn’t just by comparing them? It doesn’t appear so to me. Now, the lyrics, of course, can well illustrate such influence.

    I had taken a few months break from listening to ANY music at one point years ago, because music had been such a large idol for me in BC days. I have to admit that I still wonder about some of the things I do still occasionally listen to. Upon conversion about a dozen years ago, I threw away some music, and later, I eBayed some more.

    On the contemporary Christian music subject, I’m a bit more decisive. Many of these are really glorifying self while purporting to be worship. Instead of singing praises to the Lord for His sacrifice on our behalf thus enabling us to have a relationship with our Creator, many of these are about some sort of praise or requests for the things of the world instead. And, to be honest, most of the music itself is just not my cup of tea. A capella hymns are better for true worship, IMO, as they’re devoid of any emotional cues one can take from music.

    The music in hyper-charismatic circles is done in a way to especially evoke an emotional response; and, with its strong emphasis on repetition, it can induce at least slight hypnotic states.

  76. Arwen4CJ says:

    thelonelychristian,

    I also think that whether or not to listen to a specific type of music, or music by an artist, or whatever is a matter of conscience. As with anything, because of life experiences and a person’s weaknesses towards types of sin, what is okay for one person might actually be not okay for another person.

    I think in regard to culture and entertainment, we also have to be careful that we aren’t being too legalistic about things, or that we don’t apply the standards that we believe that God has given us personally to other people. I’ve seen this done, and the result is not pretty :(

    In the case with music, and I’ll use Christian contemporary music here as an example, the same song might illicit different responses from different people. One person might sing the song in a very worshipful way, studying the lyrics, thinking about them, and pouring their heart out before God, reflecting on the things that He has done in the past for all people, for the person, etc. It might move a person to worship God in spirit and in truth.

    That same song might be used by another person in an evil way — the person might ignore the lyrics, zone out, and try to connect with the spirit realm.

    For others, the song might remind them of a style of music they used to listen to before they were in Christ, and it might cause different things to rise up in them, sinful thoughts and whatnot.

    The fact that different responses are possible isn’t because music or Christian music, or a type of music is evil in and of itself. We are all fallen, and we all have sinful natures, so anything can be used in a sinful way. If Satan can tempt someone to use something for evil, he will. He even has temped people to use Scripture in an evil way.

    If Christians wanted to avoid every single thing in the world that a person might use improperly, then we’d have to avoid everything, which isn’t practical, and I don’t think it’s what God wants.

    Your question about the intent of the person creating music reminds me of a question that early Christians asked. Now, I know there is a difference between your question and what they asked, so this is for analogy purposes only. Anyway, they asked whether or not a sacrament was effective if the person performing it (the priest) was sinful or had bad motives, etc. Some people came to the conclusion that the bad motives invalidated the sacrament. This view was declared to be heretical. The decision was made that the sacraments were effective regardless of the state of the priest.

    The reason that this reminds me of your question is that you could think of it like this — let’s say that a piece of music (whether or not it is Christian) causes someone to think about God, and to praise Him for who He is, etc. Since we cannot know the real motivation of someone’s heart (only God can), then the fact remains that the person was able to glorify God anyway. God was able to reach the person’s heart through it. Again, this doesn’t mean that everyone who listens to the song is going to get the same response, but some people might actually glorify God through it.

    I also would really caution you about just accepting every article you come across, or every claim that is made on the Internet about something, without evaluating it critically. (And by this I don’t mean that you should doubt everything, but rather that you should weigh the arguments and the information.) This is especially true if you only find the information in one article or piece of writing. Having footnotes does not necessarily mean that the information is correct, either. Writers (including scholars) often quote information or footnote other people who hold their same view. For example, Bill Johnson and those who are like-minded to him often quote one another in their work. Other people do this, too.

    So, I would say, if you’re going to do something drastic, like deleting a bunch of stuff in your music collection, then you need to research the information from different sources. Read the footnotes, and find out where those people got their information. Go to your local library and research the topic. Go to different websites and see what information you can find. Are there people with different views? Is there an opposing view? What information does the opposing view provide? Some things written in some articles are pure speculation. This is usually evident. Also, check out what other stuff these people write. How do they view other topics? The bottom line — just because someone claims something in writing doesn’t necessarily mean that the information is accurate.

    You can go online and visit Christian websites in which the people basically say that everything is bad. I don’t think that’s really helpful.

    Also, some of the people you listed have been dead for awhile. It might be really hard to evaluate whether or not the person actually believed or did as is claimed by some random person, as the person is not able to defend themselves. Thus, it’s much easier to come up with a story about all the bad stuff the person was supposedly into.

    I don’t know much about the classical artists, but I think that they were trying to create art. And as art, I think that they can be enjoyed. Now, if there is verifiable proof that a given piece of music was channeled (and this information is from respectable sources), then we Christians would need to really think about whether or not we should listen to that music.

    That’s just my thought.

  77. Shawn says:

    Hi Guys,

    Not a huge music buff by any means but hope this little snippet helps the debate.

    Craig, you said “But, does this mean we must reject all the music by an individual who may (or may not) have been under some ungodly influence? I dunno.”

    In talking about eating of food sacrificed to idols, Paul notes that nothing going into our bodies makes us unclean. For Paul, eating such food poses no challenges to him because he has determined in his own mind that other gods do not exist and that food, therefore, is just food – it is the state of mind that the person is in when they eat the food that may lead them to sin.

    What do I mean by “state of mind?” If, when participating in any activity – including eating food or listening to music – you feel/think that it is sinful FOR YOU to do so, then it most certainly is.

    I think this Biblical principle holds true for most everything in life. While I don’t believe in the existence of other gods, I would have a big issue with using a candle in my own home that I knew had been used in ceremonial worship of a false god. For other believers, I freely acknowledge that it would be no stumbling block to them at all – it is, after all, just a candle.

    The same goes for music. If it is ungodly in lyric, then I say reject it. If the music causes you to have ungodly thoughts/feelings, then for you it is a stumbling block and must be rejected. But to classify all “classical” music or other genres as “evil” would be incorrect according to Biblical teaching.

    As we can see, it is the KNOWLEDGE that each of us has that leads us to different actions. When I was dead to life in Christ Jesus, I participated in many things that I did not know were an offense to God. Once I became alive in Christ, knowledge of my former sinful actions, via biblical instruction, led to a change in how I lived my life.

    For some of us, simply knowing that a person was attempting to “channel a demon” while creating a piece of music might be enough for us to be unable to listen to it without thinking on demons. For others, never knowing about the musical creator’s demonic influence will mean they can freely listen to the music and be fine.

    Thanks for letting me share.

  78. Craig says:

    Your verse regarding eating food sacrificed to idols is one I think on a lot, but in a different application of this pericope. In verse 9 [1 Cor 8:9] we are told not to be a stumbling block to others; so, if I were to play music in the presence of another who may be uncomfortable with the type of music I’m playing, I’ll not do it. Similarly, though I rarely drink alcohol, there are times in which I won’t for the same reason.

  79. Shawn says:

    Craig – good points. I think the same way and will modify my behavior to accomodate others level of faith.

    And why talk about “pericopes?” I wasn’t referring to submarines! :) lol Seriously, I had to look that one up.

  80. Craig says:

    It’s a word I came across in my studies in some commentaries, and I find that if I want to learn a word I need to use it. It comes from the Greek, and I’ve been studying NT Greek as well.

  81. just1ofhis says:

    Craig said, “In verse 9 [1 Cor 8:9] we are told not to be a stumbling block to others; so, if I were to play music in the presence of another who may be uncomfortable with the type of music I’m playing, I’ll not do it.”

    That is a key thing for me. There are different levels of faith and different maturities. God convicts each as He convicts them. If they need to cut something out, He will lead them to it. If they have gone farther in cutting out than He required, He will convict them of that also. If I think someone is in spiritual bondage regarding these things, I will pray for them and, at most, gently provide scritpture if God allows. I’m not referring to “different gospels” which we are clearly to cut off at the head and warn others about.

    I know that some Christians have a huge problem with the Chronicles of Narnia books (not trying to open a can of worms here) and movies. In our home, they have been treated for what they are…creative works of fiction with a few moral lessons. We do not study the writings of C.S. Lewis, nor do we use Narnia as a part of our Bible studies. I equate those books to the same place I do any other work of fiction; save for those that glorify witchcraft, sexual sin or any other evil (i.e., Harry Potter is not allowed in our house). If I know that a Christian is coming to my home who is opposed to Narnia, we simply will not bring out the books or movies. I have peace with that. If God chooses to convict me otherwise, we will take a different path. If God convicts someone else that those books should be shunned, than I will respect that decision for them and not try to convince them otherwise. It isn’t my place; and Narnia, music, food, and drink are not my test of truth.

  82. thelonelychristian says:

    I really appreciate everyone’s input. At least I can have an intelligent discussion here, instead of being dismissed with no sound Biblical reasoning like I’ve been in the past when I’ve tried to have serious face-to-face talks on this matter. Right now I’m working on something, so I will have to save my commentary for the weekend, but I wanted to thank all y’all.

  83. Arwen4CJ says:

    thelonelychristian,

    I’m glad that you feel safe here discussing this issue with us, and that you found our input useful. Yes, intelligent discussion about matters of the faith is something that is lacking within much of the church, sadly. I’m glad to be able to discuss matters here as well.

  84. thelonelychristian says:

    Honestly (or lazily?), after mulling over everyone’s comments, I think I wouldn’t have much to add that hasn’t already been discussed, more astutely than I would. I’ve actually already demolished most of my music library starting a couple of years ago. Some of it is retrievable from my old iTunes files, but on the rare occasion I miss a particular piece a bit, I question, “Seriously, do I really need to hear the theme song from Cloverfield? That was a dumb movie anyway.” (I’m not a big fan of lyrical music anymore, and I’ve always enjoyed orchestral soundtracks or classical pieces far more anyway.) The longer I go without hearing something, the easier it becomes to just talk myself out of dredging it from the bowels of my hard drive, because I can see from experience that I CAN live without such-and-such music; 1 Corinthians 6:12 comes to mind.

    The aforementioned website with the odd information about Tchaikovsky, Gershwin, et al, was something I came across fairly early in my Christian life. You think I’m paranoid now–try back then! Time has passed quickly after that, and it’s very easy for me to brush things off and just continue on without trying to restore anything (regarding this topic), in reference to what I just said in the paragraph above. Unless to combat a real problem with legalism, it’s kind of pathetic to focus on my music tastes when there are much, much bigger fish to fry in life. It feels narcissistic.

    One collection of music I know I’d never want to listen to again is that of the Star Wars saga. I don’t care how “brilliant” it was or how famous it made John Williams; it is so much a part of the films that it can’t really be separated from it. I was completely enslaved to that stuff in my previous life, and the music can only conjure up the memories of it and nothing else. It’s also way too embedded in pop culture. These are some of the most pernicious things ever created in modern times, because it is utter blasphemy and it’s literally taught to little children as if it’s not only the coolest thing in the world, but practically a moral instruction for life. (It’s also made another world religion by now, which frankly, is rather redundant if one thinks about it.) The fact that I lost my desire for Star Wars (and comic book superheroes, a secondary consuming obsession) almost overnight after believing the Gospel when I had eaten, slept, and breathed these things is one of my greatest testaments of God’s grace and liberty in Christ in my life. It might sound silly, but it means a LOT to me. I’m still experiencing the financial consequences of my prodigal living, though.

    But I digress. I probably am being too careful and restrictive, but if this is the area in my life where it happens, I’d much rather prefer it there than somewhere worse. God already knocked sense into me about “organic” diets and the hipster Mother-earth-worshiping food movement, thankfully; that was getting out of hand real quick, and was more dangerous than this little navel-gazing music issue I still have.

    The only other question for discussion that I forgot to mention in my first post was what you consider about hymns written by theologians with potentially disagreeable or even heretical doctrines. Judging from what has been said, I would assume that if the lyrics of the hymn were themselves orthodox and properly glorifying to God, even if they were penned by a false teacher, would be either useful or enjoyable?

    Thanks again, all.

  85. Arwen4CJ says:

    thelonelychristian,

    Your question about hymns written by people with heretical doctrines made the Christmas hymn, “It Came Upon A Midnight Clear,” come to mind. The man who wrote that was a Unitarian, and so he denied Jesus’ deity. (It makes me wonder why he would want to write a Christmas hymn in the first place, but hey.)

    Before I learned that about its author, I enjoyed the song, as I do all the common religious hymns. When I first learned that the author was a Unitarian, I wondered if I could still sing and listen to that hymn. It bothered me that the author denied Jesus’ deity. It’s been several years since I learned about its author, and I’ve had a chance to reflect on it. And I’ve come to the opinion that I can still listen to the song, and still sing it, because it still can proclaim Christ, even if the author didn’t really believe in Him in the way that we do.

    I think that this is the same with hymns, or even contemporary hymns or praise and worship songs — if the lyrics are orthodox, and cause you to truly worship God — then I think that they are fine. Now, I think that this is still a matter of personal conscience, and will vary from person to person, depending on experiences and situations.

    No person has perfect theology, so you’re not going to find a hymn or a contemporary worship song that was written by someone with completely perfect theology. However, we can all worship God in spirit and in truth, so long as the lyrics are orthodox.

    For example, someone who was part of Bethel Church, or a similar hyper-charismatic church might find that some songs would be difficult to sing to, or listen to, because of how these songs were used in a particular church.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, and some of you might disagree with me, but I’m going to use the song “Fire Fall Down” here as an example. “Fire Fall Down,” is a song written by Hillsong. Some of HIllsong’s theology might be off, but many of their songs are still orthodox. I will include “Fire Fall Down” in the orthodox category. Many of you have heard part of the lyrics of the song, but I will include the part of the song that you probably have not heard here.

    “Fire Fall Down” is on the list of “orthodox” songs that one guy listed who is quite critical of many modern praise and worship songs. I believe that this was the same site that another person posted on this discussion. I thought the link to this article was posted on this discussion, but I can’t find it to check.
    Anyway, the lyrics go like this:

    ‘Cause I know that You’re alive
    You came to fix my broken life
    And I’ll sing to glorify
    Your Holy Name, Jesus Christ

    You bought my life with the
    Blood that You shed on the cross
    When You died for the sins of men
    And You let out a cry, crucified, now alive in me

    These hands are Yours
    Teach them to serve as You please
    And I’ll reach out desperate to see
    All the greatness of God
    May my soul rest assured in You

    I’ll never be the same
    No, I’ll never be the same

    ‘Cause I know that You’re alive
    You came to fix my broken life
    And I’ll sing to glorify
    Your Holy Name, Jesus Christ

    You changed it all, You broke down the wall
    When I spoke and confessed
    In You I’m blessed, now, I walk in the light
    In victorious sight of You

    I’ll never be the same
    No, I’ll never be the same

    ‘Cause I know that You’re alive
    You came to fix my broken life
    And I’ll sing to glorify
    Your Holy Name, Jesus Christ

    ‘Cause I know that You’re alive
    You came to fix my broken life
    And I’ll sing to glorify
    Your Holy Name, Jesus Christ

    Your fire fall down
    Your fire fall down
    On us we pray

    As we seek
    Your fire fall down
    Your fire fall down
    On us we pray

    As we seek
    Your fire fall down
    Your fire fall down
    On us we pray

    As we seek
    Your fire fall down
    Your fire fall down
    On us we pray

    Show me Your heart
    Show me Your way
    Show me Your glory

    Show me Your heart
    Show me Your way
    Show me Your glory

    Show me Your heart
    Show me Your way
    Show me Your glory

    Now, taken at face value, the lyrics are orthodox. I believe that the “fire” referred to in the song is the refining fire, being refined and made more holy. Someone with orthodox theology can sing the song, and praise God for what He’s done for us on the cross, etc. That’s the way the song is used in orthodox churches which choose to sing this song.

    At the same time, this song can be used in a very, very evil way. In fact, if you’ve seen any videos about Fire Tunnels, it’s this very song that is playing in the background often. I don’t know if these hyper-charismatics sing the whole song in their Fire Tunnels, or if they just use the Your fire fall down Your fire fall down On us we pray” part of the song. Clearly, for those in churches that use Fire Tunnels, the fire mentioned in the lyrics has a completely different meaning, as probably do the rest of the lyrics.

    For a person who went to a church that used this song for Fire Tunnels, and has since escaped, hearing the song played or singing it would not be a good thing. It would probably dredge up the awful Fire Tunnel experience for them.

    Now, just because some churches use this song for evil doesn’t mean that no Christian should ever listen to it or sing it. However, we should be sensitive to Christians who come from a hyper-charismatic background, and not play the song around them if we know they escaped from a church that used Fire Tunnels.

    So I think that the same can be applied to old hymns and modern hymns and contemporary worship songs. If the lyrics are orthodox, then orthodox Christians can listen to them fine. An orthodox song could be used in an evil way by non-orthodox Christians.

  86. just1ofhis says:

    Good points, Arwen.

    As we are testing the spirits, it is important to avoid “spitting out gnats” and “swallowing camels”.
    The heart is the heart, and only God is the judge of that. We have fruits before us (not works). They will be good, full of faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, humility, etc.; or they will be rotten, full of idolatry, harshness, self-indulgent emotionalism, and boastful pride. I agree with you, Arwen, that any single song could be used in either manner.

    Perhaps the venue in which music is being played is as important as the context in which scripture is written.

    Or what about art? I have a painting of a Bible scene hanging on my living room wall. I know of people within the church who believe this to be a form of “idol”; however, for me it is simply a daily reminder of all that has been done for me. No one in my house bows to this picture, prays to this picture, or in any way “venerates” it. My great grandfather had a picture of praying hands that would change into an image depicting “Jesus”. He was a Bible-believing “born-again” man who spent his last 20 years of his life in and out of the hospital with heart problems. When in the hospital, he would go from room to room talking to other patients about Jesus and sharing the Gospel message with them. He also wore a great big cross on a large chain around his neck (at least it seemed huge to me at the time). This man was full of good fruit and great faith. Was the picture an “idol”? He had a stool to kneel and pray beside his bed, not before the picture.

    When Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, it was at the command of God. It wasn’t until after the Israelites started burning incense to that snake and gave it a name that God had it destroyed.

    “He (my note: Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah) did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. He remeoved the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)” 2 Kings 18:3-4

  87. Arwen4CJ says:

    just1ofhis,

    You wrote this:
    “Perhaps the venue in which music is being played is as important as the context in which scripture is written.’

    My response — very much so. That is exactly it. In the right context, religious art is simply religious art. One person might look at something or use a song to worship God as a very sacred act, in spirit and in truth. That very same piece or song or action might be an idol to another person. Anything can become an idol.

    I should also note that just because something elicits emotion does not necessarily make it bad either. I was thinking about this at my church’s Good Friday service. We had an extremely formal Good Friday service (this is the United Methodist Church that I grew up in). The hymns that were chosen were all songs having to do with Jesus’ death on the cross — the sacrifice that He made for us, and the great love that He has for us. We also had readings from Scripture that talked about Jesus’ arrest and death on the cross. At the end of the service, the altar and everything was stripped, and the Bible was slammed shut.

    All of this helped to set the mood of the Good Friday service, and it was meant to cause us to think about Jesus Christ, His death on the cross, and the events that took place. Did the music, selection of Scripture, and other parts of the service help this along? Of course. And I don’t think I was the only one who shed a few tears. Last year even the pastor was crying. I didn’t notice so much this year.

    Was it meant to be an emotional service? I believe so. But it also had a purpose — we were to reflect on the Good Friday events, and I think that this helped us do it.

    So even very traditional, formal services have the aim of eliciting a response from the worshipers. If these things help make the biblical accounts real to people, and helps to make people reflect on Jesus and the gospel, etc, then I think that this is fine.

    Of course these same principles of eliciting an emotional response can be used for evil as well. That’s the case with some of the churches trying to put people into trances and whatnot.

    So it depends on the intention of the people running the church or the service — do they want to cause people to think about God and His truth, or do they want people to get in some spiritual state or have an experience for the sake of the spiritual encounter? This would be a question that those on a worship committee or team would think about.

    It also depends on the individual worshipers — and this is something that only God can know — the intention of our hearts. If a person walks into an orthodox church and seeks experience, then that person might get it, even if everything about the service is within orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

    Anything has the potential of enticing a person. And we do need to be on our guard. Since all of us can be lead astray, we need to know the Bible, and we need to know what it says.

    In my “Kingdom of the Occult” book, which was a collection of writings and teachings Walter Martin had made about the occult, he talked about a guy from like the 1800’s being drawn into the occult because a demon played a hymn on a piano. (The piano looked like it was playing on its own, and this was when the guy was just getting into the occult.) So just as Satan uses Scripture and twists it, he can use orthodox Christian hymns for his evil purposes.

    So, yes, context is very important when evaluating Christian art (including music).

  88. IWTT says:

    I was told one time about a teacher that posts these 1 liners who is a big time WoF teacher that sometimes they get it right. Not everything that is said can be attributed to poor teaching…

  89. just1ofhis says:

    I’m not sure why this came to mind as I was thinking about all these posts. But here goes:

    I have a big garden outside my home, and years ago one of my children found this little garden cherub on sale which we all thought was cute. We purchased it and stuck it out amongst the flowers. The little birds in my garden loved it, as demonstrated by the vast amounts of poo that it collected. Otherwise it just sat there, ignored by the rest of the household.

    A few years ago, we hired a hyper-charismatic friend of a friend who was unemployed to do some work on our house. A few days into his work, I found said cherub laying on his side with his head lobbed off and smashed. I never said anything, but I knew.

    The thing is, this man believed himself to be highly gifted in the spiritual realm, and he didn’t hesitate to tell you about it. I am certain that he believed that he was doing us a favor by clearing my garden of this evil little piece of resin. What I can tell you for certain is that there was much peace in my garden and home and heart before the charismatic whirlwind of a man came as there was when he left. But my little garden birds were very sad to lose their favorite perch.

    The evil is idolatry…crafting the thing with the purpose of worshiping it, or enticing others to do so….not resin. It is an evil that can be centered on anything: music, art, sculpture, tv shows, sports, money, clothes, make-up, cars, facebook pages, whatever….

    It is the heart which makes it evil, not the thing in and of itself.

  90. just1ofhis says:

    Craig,
    Maybe you have a better spot for this, but I found it interesting. This is the link to “Apostle Doctor” (I have a hard time typing that) Robin Harfouche’s upcoming conference web advertisment.

    http://womanarise.com/

    The center top picture depicts the “Immaculate Heart of Mary”. Maybe this is a good example of a picture that amounts to idolatry and sends a very blasphemous message.

    Harfouche is playing directly to the vanity of women. This is a deadly game…..

  91. Craig says:

    So, is she sent (“apostle” means ‘sent one’) as a doctor; or, is she the doctor of sent ones?

    This comes from feminist outlook, of course; but, it could be about others. As I see it, more importantly, this seems to be implying a special role of women as ‘birthers’ with the phrase, “it was through the heart of woman…that the Savior entered the earth.” One of the hyper-charismatic notions is that Jesus will return THROUGH the “Church body”, i.e. in each of the ‘true Christians’. There is also the new age view that Gaia, the earth, is a female (and deity); and, according to Barbara Marx Hubbard last March, the earth was pregnant and expecting to give birth in December. Not sure if the pregnancy is still ongoing or not.

  92. Arwen4CJ says:

    I was wondering if anyone had read any of the books in the “Joshua” series, by Joseph Girzone. If so, I wondered if you had the same reaction that I did.

    My church has been cleaning out some of their old books, giving them away as free. The church had several of these Joshua books in the giveaway pile. My mom had read the first book, and she suggested that I pick up the books, thinking that I would enjoy them. So I did. And I’ve read two of them….

    And….well, I was not impressed. I saw a gnostic/New Age type message being delivered by the “Jesus” figure in the book. After reading the books, I looked up the book on Amazon to see what kind of reception it had, and it looks like many, many Christians have eaten these books up, loving them.

    I’d like to write an Amazon review of them, but I can’t post the review because I’ve used my parents account to order stuff from them before, and I would prefer not to write the review under their account name. Would someone be willing to post a review on Amazon if I write it?

    So, this comment has three questions:
    1.) Has anyone ever read any of the books in the “Joshua” series or any other book by Joseph Girzone?
    2.) If so, do you think he presents a gnostic/New Age gospel?
    3.) Would anyone be willing to post a review of the book if I write it?

    Thank you.

  93. Craig says:

    Sorry, I’ve never heard of Joseph Girzone.

  94. Arwen4CJ says:

    Craig,

    No problem — thank you for answering that. Would you be willing to post a review of the book if I e-mail it to you? I’m still writing it, so I’m not ready to have it posted yet.

  95. Craig says:

    Arwen4CJ,

    You could always open up your own Amazon account using a yahoo or Hotmail, etc. and post the review under that account.

  96. Arwen4CJ says:

    Craig,

    The problem is that I have to order something from the account before I can post a review under that e-mail address. I did create a new Amazon account using my yahoo e-mail address, but I haven’t ordered anything yet under it, so it won’t let me post a review.

    That’s why I’m asking if someone else can post it for me.

  97. Craig says:

    Arwen4CJ,

    I didn’t know Amazon had that stipulation. Sounds kinda silly, if you ask me.

    As for me, I’d rather only write and post reviews in my own words based on my thoughts on a given work. It’s not that I don’t think you’d do a good job; I’d feel as if I’ve I was plagiarizing your work. With this in mind, I’d have to post an initial disclaimer such as “the following review is not my own, but was posted by me for someone else” or something to that effect, which may raised some sort of red flag with readers, or, worse, with Amazon. I’ve already had two deleted by Amazon. (Johnson’s When Heaven Invades Earth because I referenced it with a link from this site, and the other because they felt I had too many quotes from the book, although I felt I was well within the bounds of “Fair Use” as defined by Title 17 of US copyright laws. I re-posted both on CrossWise, Johnson’s was amended a bit, while the other Exploring Kenotic Christology was re-uploaded on Amazon with less quotes (and some of the quotes paraphrased a bit), while the CrossWise version retained most of the original quotes.)

    It seems you could wait until you buy an item and then post the review. While I’m sure you want to get the word out ASAP (and I’m glad you have the impetus and courage to do so), a few days or weeks may not make that much of a difference.

  98. Arwen4CJ says:

    Craig,

    Thank you for your thoughts, and I understand.

    If anyone else reading this would like to post the review, let me know. Otherwise, I’ll just save it to my computer and post it whenever I end up ordering something from Amazon. I agree that Amazon’s rule is silly. They probably did it to make sure that the poster is real, and isn’t just going to spam the site with ads or something.

    I’m sorry that Amazon deleted the “When Heaven Invades Earth” review that you wrote. I read it, and I thought it was very well done.

    In the meantime, after I get these Joshua reviews written, would you mind looking them over to tell me your thoughts? And tell me if you think Amazon will approve of them? I’m not going to quote anything directly from the book, only summarize what I saw in the book.

  99. Craig says:

    Sure, I’ll look them over. But, there is no problem using short quotes from the book if necessary. As I recall, the limitation is 150, or maybe 100, words. And, I don’t think you need be concerned on whether Amazon will approve them or not – as long as there’s not “excessive quoting” or foul language, etc., most go through with no problems. Myself, I tend to read most all the reviews of a given work, especially the negative, before buying. Some of the negative reviews are so poorly written, that they’re easy to tell that the reader has his/her own agenda. Anyway, my point is that I’ve seen all kinds of reviews, and I feel confident yours would not be in violation. My WHIE was only flagged because a BJ supporter complained to Amazon about the CrossWise link to the review.

  100. Arwen4CJ says:

    Craig,

    Thank you :) I’m still working on it — it’s going to be really long. As for quotes, you can tell me if there is a particular point that you think I could use a quote from the books, and I will find one. I tend to not like to quote for these kinds of things, but will do it if it will add clarity.

    I’ll e-mail it to you when I’m done.

  101. Craig says:

    As far as quoting: I think that to make a case that the author is teaching a Gnostic/New Age Christ, you may well need a quote or two (with page # reference), with an explanation of why this is so in a following explanatory comment. But, that’s me.

    As far as length, generally, it’s good to keep a review relatively short; however, one can certainly use a review as a critique; and, to do so, requires more words. I’m surprised that the Exploring Kenotic Christology has received the most positive votes of any of my reviews as it’s VERY long; however, that particular book is a series of individual articles by about a dozen writers which makes it difficult to write a succinct review. My review was very critical, and, therefore, needed a lot of quotes/paraphrasing from the book to back up my criticism (and even references/quotes to outside sources).

  102. Arwen4CJ says:

    I feel that the books have so many theological problems couched that it is important to point them all out, as each problem is evidence that it is really teaching a gnostic/New Age gospel. The theological errors will be the longest part of the review — the rest will only take a few paragraphs. If you think I could shorten some parts, let me know.

    There are two parts that I might need to quote, and both of them come from the second book in the series, though I think the God within is alluded to in the first book as well. The first is when the Jesus character talks about finding God within, and the second quote will be when the Jesus character meditates.

  103. Craig says:

    What will ultimately become of the technology used in so-called “smart” appliances? The Internet of Things. Here’s a comment Constance Cumbey made on her blog:

    INTERNET OF THINGS — WHERE IT IS HEADED — Time to brush up on Revelation 13!

    The Internet of Things (or IoT for short) refers to uniquely identifiable objects and their virtual representations in an Internet-like structure. The term Internet of Things was proposed by Kevin Ashton in 2009.[1] The concept of the Internet of Things first became popular through the Auto-ID Center at MIT and related market analysis publications.[2] Radio-frequency identification (RFID) was seen as a prerequisite for the Internet of Things in the early days. If all objects and people in daily life were equipped with identifiers, they could be managed and inventoried by computers.[3][4] Besides using RFID, the tagging of things may be achieved through such technologies as near field communication, barcodes, QR codes and digital watermarking.[5][6]

    Equipping all objects in the world with minuscule identifying devices or machine-readable identifiers could transform daily life.[7][8] For instance, business may no longer run out of stock or generate waste products, as involved parties would know which products are required and consumed.[8] A person’s ability to interact with objects could be altered remotely based on immediate or present needs, in accordance with existing end-user agreements.[3]

    from Wikipedia article on Internet of Things. Al Jazeera America just had an interview on the IOT tonight and how much it could soon impact our lives. The “hour of temptation” to come upon all the earth as a snare? Could be!

    16 He also caused everyone (small and great, rich and poor, free and slave) to obtain a mark on their right hand or on their forehead. 17 Thus no one was allowed to buy or sell things unless he bore the mark of the beast—that is, his name or his number. 18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast’s number, for it is man’s number, and his number is 666. [Revelation 13:16-18, NET]

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