Your Assistance Requested: Seeking Original Audio/Video of Kansas City Fellowship/Grace Ministries
September 11, 2011 55 Comments
[NOTE: I am no longer interested in obtaining any related material. I am leaving this up for informational purposes.]
“…The deep conviction of my heart is that we have, in Kansas City, the beginnings of a Charismatic heresy which is far more significant than the shepherding controversy. I believe that this could split the body of Christ and cause untold damage to tens of thousands of Christians, as well as hundreds of churches across America.”
– Ernie Gruen, January 21, 1990 “Do We Keep Smiling and Say Nothing”
The former Kansas City Fellowship (KCF), aka Grace Ministries, in Kansas City, Missouri was founded and pastored by Mike Bickle in 1982 who now leads the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in the same city. KCF was embroiled in controversy centering around the teachings and practices of Bickle and the so-called Kansas City Prophets (Bob Jones, Paul Cain and John Paul Jackson) resulting from a tape “Do We Keep Smiling and Say Nothing?” circulated in January 1990 and a subsequent published document in May of the same year titled “Documentation of Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)” both by the late Ernest J. Gruen, then Senior Pastor of Full Faith Church of Love–West in Shawnee, Kansas. This document referenced and transcribed tapes distributed by KCF/Grace Ministries and other KCF/GM printed materials.
John Wimber of Anaheim (California) Vineyard was brought in to bring “correction” and guidance to KCF resulting in the name changing to Metro Vineyard Christian Fellowship on May 12, 1990 as the church fell under the umbrella of the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC).1
I have recently received some material from the KCF days including a giant fold-out [17” x 23.5” double-sided] Grace Ministries “Spring Catalog ‘90” listing audio cassettes (single and multiple sets), a few videos, and some books. It also includes listings of music by Julie Meyer as far back as 1986.
The catalog features material from Bickle, Jones, Cain, J. P. Jackson, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, Leonard Ravenhill (including conferences with him alongside some of the others – a surprise for me), David Ravenhill, David Parker, Noel Alexander, Michael Sullivant, Wimber, Bob Scott, Terry Virgo, Jim Goll, Gary Schmitz, Reuven Doron and Ed Pioreck. The descriptions accompanying the individual items illustrates the relationships between and among these individuals at the time providing an interesting historical snapshot. I will refrain from making any commentary in the body of the texts below as I want the texts to reflect as closely as possible the original catalog and I don’t wish to detract from them.
In addition, apparently distributed and accompanying the catalog itself around the time of this controversy was a separate plain sheet of paper which states “PLEASE READ CAREFULLY BEFORE ORDERING” with handwritten “FROM GRACE MINISTRIES” and “JUNE 1990”:
“The following tapes have been discontinued since this catalog was printed and are not available at this time. We’re sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused for you.”
While the date could conceivably have been written by anyone and therefore not necessarily be accurate, the timing does make sense in view of the then current controversy given that a number of these “discontinued” tapes were transcribed and excerpted in the 233 page spiral-bound Gruen document. If accurate, this would likely be part of the “correction” John Wimber was bringing to KCF.
Paul Cain had been associated with KCF since 1987. Wimber had Paul Cain speak at his Anaheim Vineyard church at least as far back as December, 1988; so, presumably, Wimber should have already been familiar with the teachings and “prophecies” of Cain before KCF’s transition to MVCF (known more commonly as Metro Vineyard Fellowship or MVF). Paul Cain’s website has an audio of his Anaheim Vineyard “Stadium Vision” “Joel’s Army” prophecy taken from the “Spiritual Warfare Conference” of February,2 1989. [A YouTube version (with overdubbed music) is also currently available.] Yet it was Wimber who was brought in for “correction.”
The “discontinued” items include all the Bob Jones material (save for some included in the multiple sets featuring multiple speakers) yet Jones was apparently still in “ministry” after this – at least up until his discipline and removal discussed in a letter dated November 7, 1991 for “using his gifts to manipulate people for his personal desires, sexual misconduct, rebelling against pastoral authority, slandering leaders and the promotion of bitterness within the body of Christ.” He was apparently in a leadership position at that time as evidenced by this same letter written by Wimber regarding Jones’ “serious sin” according to the words beginning this letter: “When a leader falls into sin…”3 If the content of Jones’ tapes were presumably so damaging to KCF/MVF that they had to be pulled from distribution, why was he still in leadership?
In a letter dated November 4, 1991 written to MVF and signed by Jones on Metro Vineyard Fellowship letterhead is the following excerpt:
In recent months, I have manipulated certain people for selfish reasons on the basis of my prophetic gifting. I have been guilty of sexual misconduct, and I deeply regret this. (I have not committed adultery).
I deeply resented the published restraints placed upon me in my ministry by John Wimber in July 1990, and this resentment created an imbalance in my reasoning ability. Now I believe that these restraints were right.4
Exactly which “restraints” were put on him given he was still a “leader” according to Wimber’s letter?
In the International House of Prayer’s “Encountering Jesus” series, a history including the KCF days, Mike Bickle had this to say about Jones and Cain, “The two men that have been my spiritual fathers in different ways and at different times — Bob Jones and Paul Cain. When I look over my 30 years plus of walking with the Lord those two men are significantly, clearly I would have to call my spiritual fathers through all these years.” And, he goes on to claim, “And, Bob Jones, from ’82 to ’92, from those 10 years, I had nearly daily communication with Bob…”5 Clearly, the history of KCF/MVF is of continuing importance.
The tapes excerpted in the Gruen document and other KCF-associated tapes have been referenced quite a bit in various sources. Some of the audio has been digitized with full and partial transcripts existing. However, not all of these are readily available for the researcher and hence my desire to collect these. The Grace Ministries catalog aids immensely in the search as it provides catalog numbers, titles and in many cases descriptions of contents. If you have any of the following items, please leave a message on this post.
Following is the complete list of all the tapes included in the catalog (not included are the books and music which are on the back side of the original catalog along with an order form) even though I’m not sure I would want allof the material as some is redundant. I’ve listed first those items in the separate “discontinued” list – as I deem these of higher importance – with notes (when available) from the larger catalog for explanation. I’ve changed the order of the “discontinued” list by grouping tapes by speaker for (hopefully) easier reference. Following the contents of “Spring Catalog ‘90”, which are categorized in the same order as the catalog itself, are some tapes and teaching papers listed in the Gruen document which are not included in this catalog.
Discontinued Items:
Grace Ministries:
A4PHG The Prophetic History of Grace Ministries – This four tape series is by far our best seller. This is the album that is often simply referred to as “the history tapes”. Unfortunately, the audio recording quality of the original masters is poor, but the content is the reason we have sold so many of these albums. Mike Bickle recalls and describes both the miraculous events as well as the discouragements and setbacks that surrounded the establishing of Grace Ministries in Kansas City.
Bob Jones:
V1BJI Video-Interview With Bob Jones – This five hour interview was recorded during the Celebration Feast in May of 1988. Mike Bickle talks with Bob Jones for approximately five hours covering a wide variety of topics ranging from angelic visitations to demonic deliverance.
A4BJV Bob Jones Visions and Revelations – This four tape series was recorded over three evenings in September, 1988. Kansas City Fellowship pastors interview Bob Jones for nearly five hours about recent visions and revelations. Among other things, Bob discusses what believers are doing in the eighties (both positive and negative) that will determine how God will be able to use them in the nineties.
A4BJI An Interview with Bob Jones – four tapes [see V1BJI above for description]
60608 Personal Testimony
81231 Heaven & Hell
90226 Rest In His Mercy & Grace
91010 Shepherd’s Rod Oct. ‘89
Paul Cain:
V2IPC Video-Interview with Paul Cain – This two hour video was recorded during the Celebration Feast in May of 1988. Mike Bickle talks with Paul Cain about his personal testimony, his early days of ministry in his teens and his tent ministry and healing revivals in the 1950’s.
70512 Personal Testimony
70628 Joel’s Army
70629 7 Spirits of God
70929 Our Father’s House
71001 A New Breed
Mike Bickle:
30510 Intercession with Angels Da. 10
John Paul Jackson:
JPJCC Being Conformed to Christ: Taproot of End Time Prophetic Events
Noel Alexander:
90326 An Intercessory Vow
The remaining includes the rather lengthy list remaining on the “Spring Catalog ’90.” It is possible that individual tapes have been separated from the multi-tape sets yet are identified individually with catalog numbers or names corresponding to the single tapes – yet another reason I wish to have complete descriptions which sometimes includes individual titles within a series/album [noted in the following by underlining]. Care was made to transcribe exactly as written including grammatical errors and such, but I did not want to detract from the overall content by marking these errors with the usual “[sic]”; however, it’s certainly possible I’ve made some mistakes of my own. Specific items from the discontinued list above will be denoted with an asterisk (*) with no further descriptions rather than duplicating the above. I’ve omitted prices and moved the catalog number to the beginning of each item for easier reference.
Audio Tape Albums:
A7TFM Experiencing The Father’s Mercy – These seven tapes by Mike Bickle on God’s mercy and grace, reveal the never-ending compassion of the Father’s heart toward His children when they’re sincerely trying to grow, yet often find themselves falling short. This message has helped many believers overcome the discouragement of personal failure and learn to entrust their lives to the Father without reservation. Titles includes: The Tender Mercies of David, His Mercy Endureth Forever, Elijah: Loving Mercy, The Compassion of God and Mercy That Leads to Righteousness.
A8PIJ Pursuing Intimacy with Jesus – Mike Bickle shares with passionate insight on the splendor and majesty of the person of Christ Jesus. Mike goes on to elaborate on the importance and relevance of that knowledge to both the individual and the church. Titles in this eight tape series include: An Old Testament Love Song to Jesus, The Glorious Man Christ Jesus and Revival of Intimacy.
A6PEM Your Personal Eternity in the Making – This six tape album by Mike Bickle develops the often overlooked theme of eternal rewards, judgment and evaluation for the born-again believer. Mike challenges the listener to make a realistic reappraisal of this life and values, in light of eternity. Titles in this album include: Eternal Rewards for Good Works, The Judgment Seat of Christ, Six types of Eternal Rewards , and Eternal Rewards According to Motives and Ministry.
A5CSH Cultivating Spiritual Hunger – This five tape series is for those who long to gain spiritual ground, but lack the motivation to begin the journey. In his practical down-to-earth style, Mike Bickle offers helpful insights and encouragement for every believer who longs to increase his desire to seek the Lord.
A4PCT Paul Cain’s Life Testimony – This four tape series was taken from the video tape series recorded in early 1990. Paul covers material ranging from his grandmother, and mother, his childhood, his early years in ministry, the “silent years,” his current ministry and a prophetic look at the future. AVAILABLE AFTER 4-1-90
A5ROW Revelation of Worship – Mike Bickle stirs the spirit of the believer to new depths of worship by expounding various themes on the topic from the book of Revelation. In this five tape series Mike paints a vivid image of the never-ending worship which surrounds the throne of God. Mike, as always, offers some very practical how-to’s on the subject of worship as well. Titles include: Foundation of Worship, Prophetic Worship, Understanding Worship – Rev 4, and Worship: Revelation of the Throne of God.
A6GTT Growing Through Personal Trials – In this six tape series Mike Bickle offers encouragement for those who are struggling with circumstances, disappointments and injustices in their personal lives. Mike brings into perspective the spiritual gains to be made through perseverance, and overcoming those trials. Titles include: Perplexity in the Ways of God, Job: Patience in Trials, and Job and God’s Integrity.
A5PGG Preparation to Experience God’s Glory – In this five tape series Mike Bickle explains the relationship between God’s presence and His judgment. These essential truths will have increasing relevance in the days ahead, as the Lord’s anointing is poured out upon the earth. Using Exodus 32-34 as an example, Mike teaches the higher accountability which accompanies the greater manifestation of His presence.
A6PFD Practical Foundations For Devotional Prayer – This brand new 6 tape series from Mike Bickle includes: Principles of Beholding the Lord, Developing a Vocabulary in Prayer, Mary of Bethany: Wasting Your Life, Principles of Spiritual Hunger, and two other messages which will challenge the believer to lavish their life upon Jesus.
A16SW Spiritual Warfare Conference – This 16 volume set includes messages by Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, David Ravenhill, David Parker, and Michael Sullivant. Messages include: The Apostolic Standard, Identifying Principalities, Pulling Down Strongholds, and Binding the Strongman.
A7SFI School For Intercessors – This 7 tape series by Mike Bickle was given at the Vineyard in Anaheim California in April, 1989. It is, without doubt, Mike’s most thorough and comprehensive teaching on the subject to date. Mike lays out both the theology and the practical “how-to’s” of intercession, dealing realistically with the obstacles to developing corporate intercession.
A4PCN Paul Cain November ’88 – Paul draws upon more than four decades of prophetic ministry in sharing three messages about God’s purposes in this generation. Included in this series is: Given As a Token, Behold I Will Come Quickly, and My Father’s House. Paul describes one of his many personal encounters with God in which the Lord speaks of His longing for a group of men and women who will make Jesus their “magnificent obsession.” Also included in this set is a fourth tape which contains Paul Cain’s dramatic personal testimony.
A6PPP Power Purity & the Prophetic – This six tape set was given by Paul Cain in May of 1989. In includes: The Original Extract, Extracting the Precious From the Vile, A Picture of the Church in America, The Dwelling Place of God, and a remarkable two tape set entitled Principles For the Prophetic Ministry in which Paul talks about the specific how’s of the prophetic ministry.
A8LRI Leonard Ravenhill: Intercession and Revival – This eight tape series embodies the wisdom and passion formed during the more than 60 years of full-time ministry. Leonard Ravenhill delivers a stirring message for holiness, revival and intercessory prayer. Included in this series is: A Vision for an Unsaved World, Be Strong and Do Exploits, A Living Hope Through the Resurrection, The Excellency of Knowing God, Repent! Repent! Repent!, and Give Me Souls or I Die.
A4BJI*
A4BJV*
A8FLC Leadership Conference: Fall ’88 – Team members discuss the evolving strategy and emerging network of Grace Ministries. This eight tape series includes: Builders of Strategy, The Why and How of Team Life, Strategy for Reaching a City and It’s Region, and The Grace Ministries Network. Also included in this series is a tape of worship, prayer and prophecy as well as two tapes featuring Bob Jones entitled: Bob Jones: Questions and Answers and Bob Jones on Pastors and Prophets.
A32SL Leadership Conference: Spring ’89 – This remarkable set of 24 tapes includes material by Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Leonard Ravenhill, Reuven Doron, Francis Frangipane. Rick Joyner, David Parker, Noel Alexander and others. More than 2000 leaders from across America, and beyond, gathered for this series of meetings.
A6FHS Fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit – This six tape series by Mike Bickle was recorded over a three month period in late 1982 and early 1983. These were some of the very first messages ever spoken at Kansas City Fellowship and are still very popular. In this set Mike builds a solid foundation on which all other ministry must come forth. Mike teaches, as have others through the ages, that the secret of enjoying the Lord through personal fellowship is the basis for a triumphant life and fruitful ministry. Mike’s practical “how-to’s” have made this series a best seller.
A4WOG The Ways of God – In this four tape series Mike Bickle covers some of the most fundamental precepts about the nature of God and his relationship to man. Titles in this album include: The Fatherhood of God, A Testimony of Pleasing God, How a Loving God Can Send Men to Hell, and The Knowledge of Acceptance.
A3POP The Perils of Perfectionism – Mike Bickle taught this three tape series in 1987 and it has remained popular ever since. Mike carefully probes the issue of perfectionism among believers, presenting a biblical balance between a godly desire to give Him our best, versus an ungodly anxiety that restrains us because of our fear of failure. So many Christians find themselves doing too little in the Kingdom of God because their natural parents or others taught them that if they can’t do it perfectly it’s not acceptable. This series challenges that myth and encourages believers to step out in faith and give the Lord their best.
A4CTH A Call to Holiness – Noel Alexander shares a resounding call to that rare but precious life of holiness entitled End Times Holiness. Mike Bickle then offers some of his best practical “how-to’s” on the subject on three other tapes entitled: Walking Free From Adultery and Fornication, and Taming the Tongue (part 1 & 2).
A4JOG The Judgment of God – In this four tape album Mike Bickle identifies and teaches on three areas that can lead a believer into God’s judgment. As always, Mike’s teaching is thoroughly biblical and full of practical ideas that can be applied to a Christian’s daily walk. Titles included in this series are: Criticism and the Judgment of God, Tithing and the Judgment of God, and a two part message entitled Immortality and the Judgment of God.
A4THS The Holy Spirit – This four tape series of foundational teachings by Mike Bickle includes: Ministering the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Understanding the Gift of Tongues (Part 1 & 2), and Bestowing the Holy Spirit. Mike addresses these topics from a thoroughly biblical perspective with a candid discussion about why the role of the Holy Spirit has been the subject of so much controversy within the church. Mike encourages believers to do more than just “receive” the Holy Spirit, but to actually begin utilizing the gifts in their daily walk.
A4IIP An Introduction to Intercessory Prayer – This set of four tapes is basic to the Grace Ministries vision and calling. Mike Bickle shares two messages entitled: Understanding Intercessory Ministry Teams and Seven Intercessory and Devotional Prayers. Also in this album are two messages by Noel Alexander including: The Time for the Watchmen has Come and The Power of United Prayer and Fasting.
A8CC1 Grace Ministries Commitment Classes: Vol. 1 – This volume contains the first 8 of the 13 recently revised and updated 1989 commitment classes which are taught at Kansas City Fellowship. Mike Bickle’s topics include: The Wineskin and Values of Grace Ministries, The Overall Vision and Structure of Grace Ministries, The Local Vision and Structure of Kansas City Fellowship, Heart Standards and Ministry Style, The Kingdom and the End Times, The Apostolic Gospel and God’s Eternal Purpose, The Nature of the Local Church, and Spiritual Authority and Eldership.
A5CC2 Grace Ministries Commitment Classes: Vol. 2 – This five volume set will complete the revised and updated 1989 Commitment Class series with tapes 9 through 13. This series will not be complete or available until approximately July 1, 1990.
A4PHG*
A10P2 Prophecy II Conference – Vineyard – This 10 tape series from July 1989 at the Vineyard in Anaheim, California features Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones and John Paul Jackson.
Single Tapes:
Mike Bickle:
80814 Overview of Romans 5 & 6
80612 Loving Mercy
80214 Discerning The Various Seasons
71108 The Glory of Sexual Purity (2 tapes)
60215 Dating
50106 Cultivating the Secret Life in God
40529 Promotion By Humility
30508 Understanding Fasting
30430 Understanding Intercession Is. 62:6
30423 Understanding Intercession I Cor. 3:9
30123 Understanding Worship Rev. 4
30501 Spirit of Prayer Ze. 12:10
30424 Spirit of Prayer Ha. 2:9
30510*
30517 Eph. 6:10-15
41230 Commitment to Financial Integrity
90319 The Father Heart of God (Jn 17:24-26)
90108 The Mystery of the Will of God
80515 Hospitality
41127 Losing Your Life
30227 Understanding the Love of God
90613 Revelation of the Father’s Mercy
90702 The Good Intentions of the Heart
90604 Discerning the Religious Spirit Mt. 18:1
90611 Discerning the Religious Spirit (Pt. 2)
90730 Value of Significance
31115 How to Know God’s Will (2 tapes)
90801 Establishing Your Life Vision
90723 The Value of Acceptance
90627 Confidence Before the Father: Our Greatest Joy
90402 Five Steps to the Knowledge of God John 17:22-26
90903 Discerning the Will of God
80726 Job & God’s Integrity
70602 Eternal Rewards
70503 The Value of Daily Diligence
70502 Apostolic Prayer
60212 Personal Prayer
81002 A Vision for Personal Ministry
91001 Restoration of the Church
91212 Three Tensions of End-Time Prophecy
AA28A Power of Meditation on the Word
91210 Cultivating an Intimate Knowledge of God
80609 Freedom From Unsanctified Emotions
81211 Scheduling Your Time
91000 Principles for Nurturing the Prophetic Ministry (2 tapes)
90623 Principles of Spiritual Maturity (2 tapes)
91100 Introduction to the Song of the Lord
61118 Spiritual Authority
60708 Sinning Against Unity
Noel Alexander:
80330 The Jezebel Spirit
90326*
90328 Prayer Challenge (with Bob Jones)
90604 Religious Spirit
90815 The Hope for This Generation
90910 Freedom From Sin by the Cross
90709 Holy Spirit
AA218 Princes of Israel take the Lead
91224 Name of Jesus
AB06A Gladness of Heart
AB11A Deliverance From Mourning
David Parker:
91108 Making Godly Choices
95555 How to Study the Bible
80524 The Pruning of the Lord
80809 Maintaining Your Spiritual Equilibrium (2 tapes)
70303 Discipleship in the Word
90117 Walking in the Comfort of God
90820 Eyes to See the Goodness of the Lord
90822 Engage Your Faith
90716 Testing the Spirits
90604 The Symptoms of Self-Righteousness
90411 The Privilege of Loving Jesus
91022 Learning to Delight in Mercy
AA16B The Source of Joy
Michael Sullivant:
AB11B It’s Time to Rebuild
80320 The Purpose of Patience
90207 Forbearance and Confrontation
90122 Judgment and Mercy – Joel
90305 Overcoming the Fear of Man
90618 God’s Blueprint for the Christian Family (2 tapes)
90709 The Four Foundational Standards of K.C.F.
90806 God, Your Work & Money (3 tapes)
91008 Achieving Oneness in Marriage
91015 Restoring Intimacy in Marriage
David Ravenhill:
90219 New Leaders for a New Purpose
90222 Binding the Strongman (2 tapes)
90221 Samson: Conceived out of Barrenness
90418 Abrahamic Covenant (2 tapes)
90813 Overcoming the Enemy
90905 Abraham: The Price of the Promise
91024 Simeon: A Transient Man
90917 Understanding Prophecy & It’s Fulfillment
AA07B A New Breed “David’s Warriors”
91217 The Presence of God
John Wimber:
AB04A The Kingdom of God in Your Midst
Leonard Ravenhill:
9021A Worship in the Beauty of Holiness
Bob Scott:
70811 The Prophetic Church (2 tapes)
Bob Jones:
60608*
90226*
81231*
91010*
Paul Cain:
91222 Paul Cain’s Early Ministry
70512*
70929*
70629*
70628*
71001*
91217 Intimacy with God
Rick Joyner:
9LC23 The Vision of the Harvest
Terry Virgo:
91101 Enjoying God’s Grace (2 tapes)
John Paul Jackson:
8LS13 Responding to the Prophetic Call
60831 Interpretation of Dreams & Visions
88LS9 The Jezebel Spirit
8LC5A Prophetic Administration (2 tapes)
JPJCC*
Jim Goll:
90919 Wisdom in Handling the Prophetic
90521L God’s Remedy for Rejection
90725 The Antidote Called Hope
Gary Schmitz:
AA14B Securing Undistracted Devotion
Ed Pioreck:
AA09A The Fatherhood of God (2 tapes)
VIDEOS:
V3PCH Paul Cain’s Life Testimony – Highlights – This 60 minute video highlights Paul Cain’s life and ministry. Taped excerpts from the six hour full-length tapes are intended to provide an introduction for those who are unfamiliar with Paul Cain. [AVAILABLE AFTER 4-1-90]
V4PCT Paul Cain’s Life Testimony – This six hour series was recorded in early 1990. Paul covers material ranging from his grandmother, and mother, his childhood, his early years in ministry, the “silent years,” his current ministry and a prophetic look at the future. [AVAILABLE AFTER 4-1-90]
V1BJI*
V2IPC*
Items listed in the Gruen “Aberrant Practices” document not included in above catalog:
Tapes:
– Bob Jones Speaks to Dominion School, Fall 1989
– Bob Jones Prophecy: Olathe Christian Fellowship, part I
– Bob Jones, Lee’s Summit, February 1988
– John Paul Jackson with Bob Jones, KCMO, September 23, 1985
– Interpretation of Dreams and Visions, John Paul Jackson
– Prophetic Events, part I, John Paul Jackson
– Prophetic Events, part II, John Paul Jackson
– Visions and Signs, John Paul Jackson
– Maranatha World Conference, Mike Bickle, October 1989
– A New Breed, Bob Jones, 1989
– Night of Enlightenment: Bickle, Wes Adams, Larry Fry, John Paul Jackson, October 7, 1987
– The Fact in the New Order in God’s Work, Bickle, October 26, 1986
– New Order Illustrated – David/Saul, Bickle, October 1986
– New Order Illustrated – David/Saul, Bickle, October 26, 1986
– Olathe Christian Fellowship, Bickle, February 8, 1987
– Prophetic History 1, 2, 3, Bickle Spring 1986
– Remembering Our Heritage, Bickle, May 5, 1987
– Vineyard School of Prophecy, Bickle, Jones, 1989
– Vineyard Pastor’s Meeting, David Parker, March 2, 1990
Teaching Papers:
– The Angelic Realm, Part I, “The Heavenly Identity, Nature & Service of Angelic Beings”
– The Angelic Realm, Part II, “The Ministry and Relationship of Men and Angels”
– Commitment Class, Part I, “Dominion & New Testament Church Life,” Week II, “The City Church,” Mike Bickle
– Grace Ministries Leadership Conference, Session 1, “Preparation of a New Wineskin,” Mike Bickle, 1989
– Grace Ministries Leadership Conference, Session 4, “The City Church,” Bickle, 1989
– Gathering of Prophets, Lecture Notes, Bickle, 1989
– “Emergence of Joseph Company,”Grace Ministries Leadership Conference, 1988
– The Prophetic Church, Part I, “A New Order of Men”
– “Strategy For Reaching a City & Its Regions,” Bickle
I’m also collecting ANY teaching papers from the KCF/Grace Ministries era (1982-1990)!
1 Jackson, Bill The Quest for the Radical Middle. 1999 (2010 “Re-published for Amazon”), Vineyard International Publishing, Cape Town, South Africa; pp 206-07
2 Jackson Quest. p 195. This is confirmed in an extant digital copy of the complete audio of Cain’s message that evening (exact date unknown) in which Cain mentions a January 1989 conference as being “last month.”
3 copy of letter on “Association of Vineyard Churches” letterhead on file
4 copy of letter on “Metro Vineyard Fellowship” letterhead on file
5 International House of Prayer Encountering Jesus. “IHOP MP3 stores: Free MP3s” <http://www.ihopmp3store.com/Groups/1000021591/IHOP_MP3_Downloads/Free_MP3s/Free_MP3s.aspx> Disc 1 <http://ihopcontent.ihop.org/ihopcntnt/endis/FreeMP3s/Encountering_Jesus_D1.mp3> 18:45-19:35 as accessed 09/09/11
CrossWise 
In the “Spring Catalog ’90” is an advertisement for a (then) upcoming conference to be held at KC Municipal Auditorium on June 25-29, 1990:
Conference Speakers: John Wimber, Paul Cain, Ralph Mahoney, Bob Jones, Leonard Ravenhill
Other Speakers include: Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, David Parker and other Grace Ministries team members.
I didn’t expect to see Leonard Ravenhill’s name right next to Bob Jones in a speaking engagement.
The books listed on the back are: Frangipane’s The Three Battlegrounds and Holiness, Truth and the Presence of God; Leonard Ravenhill’s Why Revival Tarries; Wimber’s Power Evangelism; Joyner’s There Were Two Trees in the Garden and The Harvest; and, Andrew Murray’s The Ministry of Intercessory Prayer.
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Leonard Ravenhill spoke regularly at KCF during the years 1986/87, if my memory serves me correctly. His son, David, came on staff during those same years. I did not realize he was still around in 1990 as his absence, to me anyway, was sorely noticed.
Leonard Ravenill NEVER left his message on repentance and brokenness. How he was ever involved with KCF for the length he was, is proof that many of us really could not see the forest for the trees. I wonder if he ever wrote any concerns regarding this group.
I wish I still had the teaching tapes you are requesting. Perhaps I can check with people I still know that were involved way back then.
I appreciate all your research, Craig!
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That’s interesting regarding Leonard Ravenhill. Glad to see he was still speaking on repentance and brokenness — keys to true revival. It is curious he didn’t leave after hearing Bob Jones wild “visions and revelations” at the least.
It would be GREAT if you could find any of the tapes! I’ll be sure to share with others.
Do you happen to recall this (or an earlier) catalog?
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Craig – have you tried Sermonindex.net? Here is a audio of Leonard Ravenhill’s “Worship in the Beauty of Holiness” you were looking for
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=1&min=460&orderby=titleA&show=20
There’s also on page 19 of the 24 pages of sermons a 3 part series titles “The Indestructible Man (Kansas City)”….
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Mary,
Thanks! No, I did not think to check them assuming they would not have any of these. “The Indestructible Man (Kansas City)” is not listed here in the “Spring Catalog 90” and Sermonindex does not list a date or a specific church/venue; so, I cannot be absolutely certain it’s from KCF/Grace Ministries, unfortunately — unless it’s revealed in the audio itself. I’ll check it out. And, again, on the “Worship in the Beauty of Holiness” the site does not reference a date; so, I cannot be sure if it’s the version from KCF/GM. 😦 This is important as a sermon series can change over time having different emphases and adding or subtracting parts.
From all accounts it seems Leonard Ravenhill was orthodox; so, his teachings may not be problematic at all. It’s curious to have him amongst the likes of Bob Jones, Paul Cain, etc. though.
Thanks again!
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Mary,
On an unrelated note, have you found a good church? I recall you had to resign a position at your former church because of Bethel influence.
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Re: “The Indestructible Man (Kansas City)” — Leonard Ravenhill may well be at KCF as he makes a reference to Paul Cain’s mother (@ around 20:00) and affirms Cain’s account that an angel appeared to her and told her she would bear a male child and to call him “Paul.” According to the account, which Ravenhill tells like Cain has told it, his mother was “about 45” with “3 tumors, 3 terminal illness”, etc. and she lived to be over 100. At around 21:00 he mentions Joyner who refers to him as “Simeon.”
At 21:15 Ravenhill says, “…and I believe I’m going to see the heavens rent. And, I’m going to see a Pentecost that will out-Pentecost Pentecost. Jesus had 12 disciples yet 10 times that number in the Upper Room; we’ll have another 1000 times that when the next move of the Spirit comes. It’s not going to be a Pentecostal revival it’s going to be an apostolic revival. It’s gonna be God’s revival. There’ll be no flesh [ed: fixed mistranscription] in it. It’s going to be Spirit-total.”
As an aside, he speaks of the pseudepigraphic (falsely inscribed) Book of Enoch (there are actually 3; but, he is referring to the most commonly known, aka 1st Book of Enoch or 1 Enoch) in a positive manner — which I’m not particularly comfortable with him doing. There’s a reason why this book was not canonized and placed with the rest of the New Testament. Also, contrary to some who think so, 1 Enoch was never considered for canonization.
He also speaks about another man who claims he heard another had seen two angels and the rest of the congregation were awed by it (@ 17:25).
Hmmm…
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OK, at about 22:00 Ravenhill speaks of “Swaggart and PTL” in a reference to “harlots”; so, this was likely after (and perhaps soon after) Swaggart had solicted a prostitute in February of 1988. While this does not definitively date this, we are getting closer!
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To see more of why it’s important to uncover the history of KCF, see this post of Bill’s on Beyond Grace:
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/09/david-pytches-some-said-it-thundered.html
He has some others on KCF-related “historic revisionism” listed at the bottom of this post.
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Craig, I see you are still doing some great research. This is indeed interesting information about Ravenhill. There has always been some iffy’s on my mental list.
If I come across any teaching materials I will be sure to get them to you. Although I haven’t been doing much research lately.
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Kim,
Hey thanks! I’m specifically interested in anything related to Kansas City Fellowship/Grace Ministries era (’82 – ’90) or perhaps early Metro Vineyard ’90+. I’m not sure exactly when Leonard Ravenhill left KCF/MVF.
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Craig – Have I found a church, yet? Thanks for asking, but the answer is yes and no. 🙂 We go out of town most weekends and have begun attending a church there – so Sunday mornings is it – not involved in any other way. I’m still gun shy – been doing alot of re-evaluating/questioning/searching, etc. but I always come back to Micah 6:8 – ‘He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, and to love kindness and mercy, and to humble yourself and walk humbly with your God?’…
I, too, am surprised to find out that Leonard Ravenhill was involved with Kansas City and company. I’ve heard him mention people like Paul Cain, Dowie, Lake, David Wilkerson, etc.- even Charles Stanley. Hopefully, it was before all the scandals happened/were known. One sermon was a meeting at John Wimber’s church (he had been there for several weeks – preaching 4-5 times a week – but not sure when it was). (Wimber did warn Arnott to bring the ‘manifestations’ under control – and when he wouldn’t he was expelled from the Vineyard churches (1995ish) and Bickle withdrew in support of Arnott)…
That said, Ravenhill seemed to be going around preaching the gospel whenever and wherever to anyone and everyone who would have him – it didn’t matter who or what group/denomination it was. He had a heart for the lost – and was concerned with repentence/salvations/living holy unto the Lord/prayer…He said his opinion didn’t matter – only the ‘opinion’ of the Bible. The Enoch reference is truly bothersome, though! I need to dig deeper…He just doesn’t seem to have much patience for all the shallowness that goes on now – he died (1994) before all the laughing/gold dust/gold teeth/gems, etc. was front and center. I may be wrong about him, but I hope not… 🙂 He says ‘Jesus Christ didn’t come to make bad men good…He came to make dead men live’ and ‘Hell has no exits’… He knew man was a sinner on his way to hell if he wasn’t born again…he wanted to make sure everyone came to a saving knowlege of the Lord Jesus Christ. (but I will definitely be listening to more of his sermons!)
There are alot of other Ravenhill sermons available at ravenhill.org. So sorry! I’m rambling – this has nothing to do with Kansas City audio/videos…I wish I could help you more there. Thanks, Craig, for all your work/research into these matters! 🙂
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Mary,
It’s probably best to take it slow right now. There may well come a time when the true remnant will have to worship away from a church building and go into small home groups instead. We may have to truly go underground eventually.
Ravenhill was very definitely espousing some of the KCF/KCP stuff. He spoke of Branham in a positive light which is most troubling. There’s another series I was shown that I need to look into further; but, I’m just too tired at the moment (been getting about 5 hours or less sleep the past few nights). I’ve been working on a followup to the first part of this post (before the listing of all the tapes) tying more things together. It’ll take a bit more research to complete.
Thanks for showing me the audio of Ravenhill. I truly do appreciate all the help I receive from readers.
BTW, a part of the first Book of Enoch is referenced in Jude.
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My two cents worth:
If Ravenhill passed away in 1994, this would have been around, or before, the manifestations occurred in Toronto. Before those manifestations occurred, EVERYONE was anticipating a giant move of God. Once the manifestations showed up, we clearly had something to judge. I.E., that those particular signs didn’t add up to the hype – and, they weren’t producing broken, repentant hearts, something Ravenhill expected! In my opinion, he didn’t live long enough to be able to judge it.
However, since he was personally engaged in preaching the gospel, it is odd that he didn’t detect the absence of this preaching in these circles. Sadly, his presence went a long way in lending credence to the movement. I just remember him being focused on the heart change aspect of the coming revival. I had forgotten how wowed he was, as well, by these guys. Sigh. What a precious man he was.
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Here’s more corresponding information. In the Fall 1990 issue of the CRI Journal is the following:
As a result of the correction, limitations on public ministry were placed on KCF prophets Bob Jones and John Paul Jackson. Jones’s controversial tapes have been withdrawn from distribution and his ministry is limited to church leadership “behind closed doors.”
1) Given that Jones’ ministry was “limited to church leadership,” why was he ministering privately resulting in his “sexual misconduct,” etc.?
2) This confirms that the Jones’ tapes were indeed “withdrawn from distribution” as a corrective measure which raises questions as to why some of the others were “discontinued.” Why would “The Prophetic History of Grace Ministries” be taken out of circulation if it was “by far our best seller?”:
A4PHG The Prophetic History of Grace Ministries – This four tape series is by far our best seller. This is the album that is often simply referred to as “the history tapes”. Unfortunately, the audio recording quality of the original masters is poor, but the content is the reason we have sold so many of these albums. Mike Bickle recalls and describes both the miraculous events as well as the discouragements and setbacks that surrounded the establishing of Grace Ministries in Kansas City.
Item 2 plus the retraction of “three questionable charges he [Gruen] had brought against the KCF, while affirming the essential accuracy of his documentation” — referring to the “Aberrant Practices” document, not the January tape — will be the subject of a future article once other associated documentation is acquired (in transit) and properly analyzed.
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Mary, you said:
I too, am surprised to find out that Leonard Ravenhill was involved with Kansas City and company. I’ve heard him mention people like Paul Cain, Dowie, Lake, David Wilkerson, etc.- even Charles Stanley.
What proof do you have that Stanley was ever involved in this?
I very rarely comment here or on any Christian websites anymore, but I can’t pass up the reference to Charles Stanley and Ravenhill. After having been raised in Stanley’s church, I can tell you he would be the last person to agree with any of this false prophetic stuff. He simply preached/preaches the truth of the Bible nothing more,nothing less. He doesn’t get into to the gifts or anything else that the hyper-charismatics do,
Just so you know.
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mbaker,
Glad to see you making an appearance. I hope all is well.
Ravenhill makes a reference to Charles Stanley @ 7:35 in the following in which Ravenhill states he was “…on the platform with Charles Stanley…”. I don’t think this can necessarily be construed as a Charles Stanley explicit endorsement though as we don’t know any of the particulars. In this context there’s nothing theologically unorthdox:
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I’ve been meaning to listen to the rest of this series; but, I’ve been busy preparing a follow up article to this one. However, in part 2, there are a number of things:
3:00 Talking once again about a Pentecost that will out-Pentecost Pentecost
6:50 Talking about a billion soul awakening
7:07 Paul Cain– an amazing man; mentions Branham as if he’s OK (7:20)
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mbaker – I agree that Stanley is not involved with any of the Kansas City Prophets et al. I had thought Ravenhill just went around preaching everywhere to everyone (he drops a lot of names) about reaching the lost – the great commission – before the Lord returns. I had not known of his strong Vineyard/Kansas City ties until recently. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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BTW, the Paul Cain site is back up and the audio for the Paul Cain “Stadium Vision” from Anaheim Vineyard is now hyperlinked in the article.
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Even though I know Charles Stanley has not been involved with the Kansas City Prophets, there is some rather troubling information that I posted here where it was more applicable:
New Age/Antichrist/Roman Catholicism teachings are creeping in anywhere and everywhere…Beware!
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Here’s something interesting…There definitely was a drought in the summer of 83. Though some of the dates are still misconstrued by Bickle and/or Gruen.
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Scottie,
Thanks for posting. However, actually, as I read the two articles it coincides with Gruen and the revised version which came out by Bickle (or Deere/Wimber) since there really were drought conditions at that time — “the second lowest recorded rainfall for that period of time in the history of Kansas City.” [Pytches, Some Said it Thundered. 1991 Oliver Nelson; p 90] There was very little or no rain in the immediate KC area in July and August of 1983, except for the .32″ on August 23rd, but June had above average rainfall. There was a drought that summer as the overall rainfall was down. Bickle (or Deere/Wimber) had to tailor the KCF/Bickle false account to match the actual weather.
It’s just like here in Texas in which we are in a drought. In San Antonio we had some good rains last weekend; but, we are so far behind in rainfall for the year that we are still in a drought.
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Craig,
What did the original version say? Why do you say Bickle revised/taylored it?
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Scottie,
In Gruen’s document here referenced as item IA (pp 41-42) is the Bickle account and Gruen’s correction. Also, I noted Bickle’s version in 2 comments on the Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference post dated September 3 at 11:16am and September 8 at 8:59pm. Since I now have Pytches’ original book, I will be posting this in an upcoming article.
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“September 8 at 8:59pm” eh?
Don’t you mean 6:59? How dare you get this detail wrong?! You sir are completely discredited!
Just kidding. I couldn’t resist that 🙂
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LOL, I think I need better glases 🙂
I should have made it more clear: it’s the June rainfall — or, in Bickle’s initial account, the lack thereof — which is the main issue.
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I don’t know…what about Gruen’s account? He claimed there was no drought at all. But history proves that there WAS a drought. Not just any drought either…the worst since the “Dust Bowl” according to the NY Times. Seems to me the prophecy did happen.
Who’s to say that in the excitement of it all, Bickle didn’t just get the dates off? Who doesn’t exaggerate when they’re excitedly retelling a story?
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Scottie,
Given that this prophecy was actually [I should say “purportedly”] given at the end of May in 1983 and Bickle claims it began right away in June, how could he “forget” this in retrospect if this was to provide foundational proof of the legitimacy of KCF? To claim he somehow forgot the details (or “exaggerated” them as in another article which defended Bickle) of something so important to KCF beggars belief. Read the account again:
…so also there will be the total withholding of everything for three months…
In this city everything will be withheld. For three months there will be a drought…
This clearly indicates there will be a 3 month period of NO RAIN which Jones makes absolutely clear:
…But for three months there will be no rain — not until 23 August.
August 23rd was to be the day that the drought — one in which there is to be no [edit: forgot no!] rain — is to be broken. That was the whole point of providing the August 23rd date. And the thing is, there is no proof this “prophecy” was actually uttered in May of 1983. For all we know, it could have been ex post facto — after the fact. He have the words of Bickle and Jones to go by and Bickle admittedly “exaggerated” the fulfillment of the “prophecy” according to Charisma & Christain Life [September 1990 p 42 “Truce Called in Bickle Controversy”].
Yes, the word drought can mean very little rain instead of no rain at all; HOWEVER, in the context of this “prophecy” Jones clearly meant NO RAIN and Bickle stated the same thing. His account is thus proved false.
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Scottie,
As to Gruen’s statement that there was no drought — you miss the point. Gruen’s point was that that there was not a 3 month period of no rain as the Bickle-Jones account stated flatly, though, obviously, there was a drought of less rain than normal at the time.
Did you also miss that the original account as related in the Gruen Document has Bickle stating, “June – no rain…August 23, 6:00 at night, it rains, what, 3 to 4 inches of rain…“?
“3 to 4 inches” compared to .32″ is quite a difference!
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No, I don’t think I missed the point. Craig, I think your own logic defies you. In one sentence you state:
“This clearly indicates there will be a 3 month period of NO RAIN which Jones makes absolutely clear”
In another, a few sentences down:
“the thing is, there is no proof this “prophecy” was actually uttered in May of 1983”
Well which is it? Did Bob Jones make it clear?…Or are we uncertain of the facts 28 years later?
I’m inclined to think that the fact that the actual drought didn’t begin until July actually substantiates the fact that Bob Jones predicted the drought before it actually happened. If indeed he uttered the prophecy during May, then this means when he spoke it, they couldn’t have known that there was a drought about to begin.
I think you may be the one missing the point. How can you be so hard on Bickle and Jones when there is at least one substantial error in Gruens report of the drought as well? He said there was no drought at all! It reads pg 42:
“There was no drought” (How else can this be interpreted?)
To me it seems the error Gruen makes in his report on the drought is farther from the truth than Bickles recounting of the drought/prophecy. Also, at least Bickle admitted to exaggerating and apologized (supposedly).
When did Bickle first retell the events on a microphone? Was it in 1986? (I’m really not sure, but…) If so, this was 2.5 – 3 years after the events took place. It seems understandable that in the excitement of retelling, things could be exaggerated, and dates could be a little misconstrued.
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Scottie, you wrote, No, I don’t think I missed the point. Craig, I think your own logic defies you. In one sentence you state:
“This clearly indicates there will be a 3 month period of NO RAIN which Jones makes absolutely clear”
In another, a few sentences down:
“the thing is, there is no proof this “prophecy” was actually uttered in May of 1983″
Well which is it? Did Bob Jones make it clear?…Or are we uncertain of the facts 28 years later?
Mike Bickle, speaking for Bob Jones made the explicit claims in 1986, “…But for three months there will be no rain — not until 23 August.” and “…so also there will be the total withholding of everything for three months…” and “In this city everything will be withheld. For three months there will be a drought…” It is also stated in the Gruen Document, “On August 23, the drought will end and the rains will come to the city.” From this it is crystal clear: there was to be, in 1983, a three month period of no rain whatsoever prior to August 23 which was to bring an end to the ‘no rain at all’ drought. If this “prophecy” was actually uttered in May of 1983, as purported, it is false. Bickle/Jones got both the original “prophecy” AND it’s “fulfillment” wrong. To subequently claim that the August 23 date would be in the middle of a ‘some rain but less than normal’ drought is to completely change the “prophecy.”
My point regarding the “no proof” statement is just that — there’s no proof the “prophecy” was actually spoken when it was purported. All we have to go on is Bob Jones’ and/or Mike Bickle’s word for it.
You wrote, “I think you may be the one missing the point. How can you be so hard on Bickle and Jones when there is at least one substantial error in Gruens report of the drought as well? He said there was no drought at all! It reads pg 42:
“There was no drought” (How else can this be interpreted?)”
Gruen was not trying to prove whether or not there was a ‘some rain but less than normal’ drought. Gruen was illustrating that the “prophecy” as set forth by Jones/Bickle was false. And he did just that. There, in fact, was not a ‘no rain at all’ drought for a three month period preceding August 23, 1983 with the drought being broken by the August 23 date.
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““3 to 4 inches” compared to .32″ is quite a difference!”
You’re right, this is quite a difference. But what is the bigger difference? This, which could be only excited exaggeration, or the fact that Ernie Gruen stated “There was no drought” when actually there was a drought second only to the dust bowl of the 30’s?
I kind of doubt Bickle would have checked the precipitation levels in the newspaper before making the exaggeration 3 to 4 inches. Consider if the .32″ fell in just 30 minutes, as Bickle says. Would it be so outlandish for it to seem like 3 to 4 inches at the time?
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(Sorry I don’t know how to do italics)
Craig, you wrote:
“My point regarding the “no proof” statement is just that — there’s no proof the “prophecy” was actually spoken when it was purported. All we have to go on is Bob Jones’ and/or Mike Bickle’s word for it.”
Using your own logic, is there proof that the prophecy didn’t happen, or wasn’t fulfilled? All you have to go on is Mike Bickle’s retelling of the events and Ernie Gruen’s report. Unless you were there. Were you there Craig? Ernie Gruen’s report states “there was no drought”, when there was. Mike Bickles report claims a drought that was prophesied, but the only “proof” of any error is in the dates he got wrong, which he admitted and apologized for.
You wrote:
“To subequently claim that the August 23 date would be in the middle of a ‘some rain but less than normal’ drought is to completely change the “prophecy.”
Is it changing the prophecy, or is it changing the retelling of it? Again, Bickle admitted he got the dates wrong and apologized. Also, how can you call it “‘some rain but less than normal’ drought” when it was clearly more than this? It wasn’t just a season of less than normal rain, it was a truly devastating actual 3 month drought (july-oct), one of the worst in history. 2nd only to the Dust bowls.
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Scottie,
First, to do italics or bold: strike the left arrow key (the one below the K & L), strike “i” (without the quotation marks), then strike the right arrow key (the key below the L & colon/semicolon). This opens the section you wish to italicize. To close, do the same thing except add the “/” (backslash)key directly in front of the “i” with no spaces in between the arrow keys or the “i” and “/i”. I cannot show you exactly; however, I’ll subtitute brackets for illustration: {i} text you wish to italicize{/i} For bold, do the same replacing a “b” for the “i”.
The proof the purported prophecy as spoken by Bickle didn’t happen or wasn’t fulfilled is in the statements of Bicke as disclosed in the Gruen Document from the KCF tapes. Corresponding evidence is found in Pytches’ first book. We can go ’round and ’round with this but you apparently won’t concede the fact that August 23rd, which was to be the drought-breaking date preceded by a 3 month period of no rain, did not, in fact, end the “prophesied” ‘no rain’ drought. That’s the real crux of the matter.
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Jut because it didn’t happen *exactly* how they said it happened, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In fact we have the report posted by Worldview Times from 1991 titled “The Vineyard and the Kansas City Prophets, by Robert Dean, Jr.” as evidence that the prophecy DID happen.
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7353
I.A.1. “This involved the reporting in 1986 of a drought during the summer of 1983. Bickle reported this prophecy made by Bob Jones. For various reasons Bickle misrepresented some times and dates. On closer examination the three month drought did occur.”
later,
“However, he [John Wimbur] cites only the drought prophecy as an example of alleged fabrication and shows that Bickle mistakenly reported the facts. The true facts he said still verify the prophecy. “
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Once again, the initial “prophecy” stated there was to be no rain for 3 months preceding August 23rd upon which the drought would end when ‘”the rains will come the city.” That is very straightforward. This did not happen. To change a ‘no rain at all’ drought to a ‘a much less-than-normal rainfall’ drought and, at the same time, to change the “prophesied” ending date to one in which it’s in the middle instead is to completely change the “prophecy” as well as its “fulfillment.”
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Craig,
You’re right. We could go round and round.
Good luck in your accusations. I hope fruit is beared.
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Scottie,
Actually, I’m glad we had this back and forth exchange. It has helped me to see how Bickle has actually changed the account as revealed within the Gruen Document. Looking at the index in the back of the Document, I see there are actually two separate accounts — one dated 1986 and the other 1989. The second one , the shorter account listed (which begins at the end of p 41 and continues to p 42) is from The Prophetic History of Grace Ministries released in 1986 [A4PHG as per the catalog – conveniently “discontinued” in June 1990 as mentioned in this post even though it was “by far our best seller”]. The first one, the longer one is taken from Overview of Our Prophetic History from 1989. If I had put the Gruen Document together, I would have put the earlier account first to illustrate how Bickle changed Bob Jones’ “prophecy.”
In the earlier account from ’86, Bickle is more dogmatic, “For three months there will be a drought in this city…On August 23, God will send a sign from heaven…Cause it was terrible. June — no rain…August 23, 6:00 at night, it rains, what 3 to 4 inches of rain…”
Then in ’89, as Gruen records, there’s a lot of stammering and inherent contradictions once it was apparently pointed out that June did not have “no rain”:
“[Bob] said, ‘Worse than that, we’re goin’ to [have] three months ot total barrenness [ed: which would logically mean “no rain”] He didn’t say that there would be, you know, not a, not a sprinkle of rain. He said there’d be a drought. He said through the city. And ah, I checked the newspaper once and found out that it rained an inch in the north over the summer. But ah, you know, I’m not sure exactly how much, or somebody did – I can’t remember all those details, but we watched it day by day and there was drought through those three months [The “three months” would have begun in June in order to keep the August 23 “appointed time” as drought-breaker as set forth in the “prophecy.” The Gruen Document indicates 5:03″ in the north and 7.37″ rain in the south of KC for the month of June] …’The Lord will break the drought in the natural over Kansas City, and it’s a sign that He will, on an appointed time, break the drought in the Spirit…
And [Bob] told us on the end of May, he said, ‘This drought will last three months in the natural. It will last a number of years in the Spirit.’
…and ah, so much for theories. But there is an appointed time when the drought breaks in the natural as well as in the Spirit. [Bob] said, ‘On August 23, the drought will end and the rains will come to the city. Three months from now, [from “the end of May”] from now, the rains will come…Obviously that took place and that was glorious. And it was a supernatural sign to us. We waited all summer for that. But no rain or such minimal rain that none of us can remember it, let’s put it that way. I’m not ah, haven’t checked all the scientific stuff on it, I just ah, watched it casually…
Are we really to believe Bickle “watched it casually” when there was so much at stake?! This “prophecy” was to confirm the “movement!”
…but ah, then after that, ah, we’re all excited because the rain came on an appointed day…We were gittin’ very discouraged because of the total barrenness in our midst.
So, in the changed account from 1989 “total barrenness” meant “a sprinkle of rain” instead of “no rain” as in the ’86 account to force this “prophecy” purportedly uttered in 1983 as recorded in 1986 to fit in with the fact that there was rainfall in June of ’83. However, once the Gruen Document indicated the 5.03″ and 7.37″ in KC in June of that year, the entire “prophecy” was re-worked to mean a drought beginning on July 1 instead of “the end of May” with the August 23 “appointed time” which was initially to signal “when the drought breaks in the natural,” i.e., the end of the drought, changed to the middle instead. That’s quite an evolution!
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If I may interject something here: there are two types of prophets mentioned in Scripture. True prophets and false prophets.
True prophets of God were imperfect, in that they sinned. However (and this is very important to understand), they never made a mistake while prophesying. God’s words are pure and holy, and God used imperfect men to share His perfect words.
False prophets were imperfect. They sinned too. While they claimed to be true prophets of God and in direct communication with God, they were not sent by God. As such, they foretold false prophecies.
If a man tells the truth 99% of the time, what is he? A liar. How many lies does it take to be a liar? Just one. Therefore, how many false prophecies does it take to be a false prophet? Just one (Deuteronomy 18:18-22). And, no amount of damage control, spin-doctoring, and excuses will change that fact.
Amazingly, there are “honest” false prophets, in that they admit to making mistakes while prophesying. How convenient. But they warn their followers not to label them false prophets, which goes against God’s warnings against false prophets. Indeed, hypocrisy runs rampant within their camp.
I have written it before and will write it again: God has zero tolerance for false prophets and false teachers. There is no fellowship between God, false prophets, and false teachers (Jeremiah 14:14; Jeremiah 23:31-32; Jeremiah 29:9; Ezekiel 13:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1). Unless they repent and are born again, God will deal with them severely at His appointed time (Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 20:11-15).
The world is being bombarded by false prophets, more now than before, just as Jesus Christ warned (Matthew 24:11; Matthew 24:24). God provides easy to understand guidelines on how to spot a false prophet. Needless to say, we would do well to listen to God than to the liars who think they speak for God.
Finally, one can’t be a false prophet and a Christian at the same time. Take a serious look at 2 Peter 2:1-3:
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”
Related reading:
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/God&FalseProphets.htm
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Bud,
Yes, and, for the sake of Scottie (if you’re still reading), I state outright that Bob Jones is a false prophet in Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference. Given that true prophets are to be God’s mouthpiece, so to speak, their forthtellings should line up with the Word of God. Bob Jones explicitly teaches the Manifested Sons of God heresy which violates 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 among other Scripture. As such he is a false prophet.
Here is some verbiage from that post:
This blog post will focus on dangerous false prophet Bob Jones.
Yes, false prophet. I do not state these words lightly. This is stated not just because some of his “prophetic words” with specific parameters have proven false – even though this is true. It is said because, in addition, some of his “words” are downright anti-Biblical, not just extra-Biblical.
Bob Jones is a false prophet and anyone who endorses him should be scrutinized.
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According to the ‘IHOP Abherrant Practices’ by Pastor Ernie Gruen – Mike Bickel received a 4 point ‘prophecy’ from a ‘prophet’ about the ‘movement’ that said there would be a false prophet coming to him (Bickel) – see page 54 of the paper. Pages 57-58 state that Mike Bickel himself thought Bob Jones was the false prophet spoken of – but Bickel was too enamored by all the supernatural signs and wonders, he thought they must be from God….and ignored his own doubts. So from the very foundation of Bickel’s ‘ministry’, things were anti-/extra-biblical…and discernment thrown out the window with deception making a grand entrance.
There is a link to the Gruen document above in Craig’s comment on September 25th at 1:48pm.
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Craig:
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Bob Jones is a false prophet and false teacher. His demonic doctrines have been a major influence within the hyper-Charismatic movement for many years.
In addition to what you have provided, in his 2009 article, “Bob Jones: A Tail of A Prophet,” Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason Ministries details Jones’ influence over Mike Bickle and other major players within the Kansas City prophets/Latter-Rain movement. Oppenheimer also points out Jones’ influence over the ill-fated Lakeland revival, starring Todd Bentley and others within the Prophetic movement ( http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain52.htm ).
Therefore, it is no exaggeration to say that Bob Jones is is a “dangerous false prophet”. Jones is a classic example of what happens to those who claim to be Christian, but have turned their ears away from the truth of God’s written word, and welcomed mythology (2 Timothy 4:3-5).
Bud Press
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here are some links to a couple of items you are looking for (I think :)):
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mike%20bickel%20AND%20mediatype%3Aaudio
http://www.archive.org/details/SpiritualWarfare-BecomingMightyInSpirit
The archive.org site has a lot on there – just a matter of putting in the right keywords… 🙂
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Mary,
Thanks for checking! I am aware of the first one as this was recently uploaded and I was informed by the individual uploading. I don’t know anything about the 2nd one. I’ll have to give it a listen when I have some time.
I would really like to have the original tapes themselves. That may be a bit more difficult – but I don’t think impossible. SOMEONE is holding on to some of these!
Thanks again!
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Craig, I used to attend a Vineyard church and while there I saw tapes of old teachings. You may try visiting or contacting to see if you can at least borrow them. I know it’s kind of a crazy idea, but thought I would throw it out there. You will need to make sure they are Vineyards who believe in these things because I have found some don’t, or only loosely.
Also the Elijah List is very happy to sell and resale old messages. I once got a Bob Jones “word” thinking it was new and later on found it was from quite a few years back! Elijah List will do anything for money it seems.
It is amazing to me that even tho people spoke out quite loudly against the KCP, Toronto, etc., esp Gruen and other pastors and leaders, some of which were involved, we continue to see the apostasy grow by leaps and bounds. Such blindness, and yet Jesus warned “See that no one deceives you”…
Peace and blessings to you all. 🙂
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M’Kayla,
Thanks for the tip!
It is amazing to me that even tho people spoke out quite loudly against the KCP, Toronto, etc., esp Gruen and other pastors and leaders, some of which were involved, we continue to see the apostasy grow by leaps and bounds.
This is why it’s important to keep on bringing out the various problems associated with these things.
And, blessings to you as well. 🙂
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I’ve just confirmed that the Stadium Vision “Joel’s Army” audio available at the Paul Cain website is from the February, 1989 “Spiritual Warfare Conference” with a digitized audio copy of Cain’s message one night (exact date unknown) which contains the portion currently on Cain’s site. Cain, on the digital audio, mentions a conference from January 1989 and mentions this as the previous month while specifying he’s at Wimber’s Anaheim Vineyard.
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For additional information regarding the KCF/Gruen controversy, see these two articles:
https://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/did-ernie-gruen-recant-his-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-regarding-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/
https://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/in-exonerating-paul-cain-is-the-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-invalidated/
THe second one discusses the “drought prophecy” in depth.
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Craig – you’ve probably already gotten this link to some 1988 Bob Jones ‘Visions & Revelations’ tapes from Beyondgrace’s site…but just in case you haven’t…
http://www.archive.org/details/VisionsAndRevelations-MikeBickleWithBobJones1988
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Mary,
Yes, I have. Thanks for the help.
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Did you all ever come up with anymore conclusions about Leonard Ravenhill? And also, was David Wilkerson in KCP? Cause I see reference to his name a lot here. If Wilkerson was involved, he wasnt involved long, cause he -along with Carter Conlon- spoke out against all that weird manifeststions.
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Sarah,
I haven’t really gone any further with Leonard Ravenhill as I’ve taken on other projects. My take is that he was caught up in the exuberance. Yet he still preached on sin and repentance. I’m disappointed that he shared the pulpit with some of these guys and by doing so he gave them credibility. I’d say he was a mixed bag in that regard.
As far as I know Wilkerson was never a part of KCP.
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Do you have digital copies of David Parker’s messages? If so, would you be willing to share them?
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Ken,
Sorry, I do not.
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