The Christ Anointing and the Antichrist Spirit
March 17, 2012 89 Comments
[See also: Bill Johnson's Christology: A New Age Christ?, Part II, Part IIIa, Part IIIb and Part IV (Conclusion)]
In Bill Johnson’s popular book When Heaven Invades Earth is a chapter titled “The Anointing and the Antichrist Spirit”.1 In Johnson’s theology “the anointing” is variously termed “the Christ anointing”,2 “the baptism in the Holy Spirit”,3 “the Holy Spirit’s presence upon” an individual (including Jesus),4 and “the presence of God”.5 The “antichrist spirit” is defined as essentially ‘anti-anointing’ in this chapter and is thus a redefining of this term as compared to the Apostle John’s definition.
Orthodox Definition of the Antichrist Spirit
Here are the Apostle John’s words in his first epistle defining the antichrist spirit:
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. [1 John 2:22-23, NASB]
One must confess that Jesus is the Christ and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John makes it clear that there is only one Christ and He is Jesus, and if one denies the Son by denying that Jesus is the Christ, then consequently the Father is also denied. It’s a flat out rejection of God. However, the one who confesses that Jesus is the Christ and, hence, is also the Son, has the Father.
The Apostle John also commands us to test the spirits providing one more identifying mark of the antichrist spirit:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of antichrist of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. [1 John 4:1-3, NASB]
One must confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This means one must confess that Jesus was the Christ at conception or at least the Virgin Birth [Luke 1:35/2:11; Matt 1:18] thereby precluding any adoptionist or separationist Christology.6 A confession to the contrary is evidence of the antichrist spirit. Colin G. Kruse expounds:
…[I]t is not only those who…remain faithful to the message heard from the beginning and who love fellow believers who claim an experience of the Spirit. There are many others who claim to be indwelt by God, to have received the Spirit, and to speak in his name…[John] warns his readers to exercise discernment when they encounter people claiming to speak in the name of God…Not everyone claiming to speak in the name of God actually does so….7
Kruse continues warning about “false prophets operating within the Christian community” [Matt 7:15; 24:11, 24; Mark 13:22; 2 Pet 2:1, etc].8 He then describes the test:
…The spirit of God is recognized as the one teaching human beings (‘every spirit’) when they acknowledge that Jesus Christ ‘has come in the flesh’…The expression ‘to acknowledge Jesus’ is but a shortened version of the expression ‘to acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’ [ED: from verse 2]. It is important to note that… here…the Spirit’s role is that of witness to the truth of Jesus Christ.
When in 4:2 the author refers to the confession ‘that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’, he uses a perfect form of the verb ‘to come’, indicating that it is Christ’s status as one come in the flesh, rather than simply the historic act of his coming that he had in mind….9
Judith Lieu notes also the Greek perfect tense and explains the phraseology “in the flesh”. It is not merely making reference to the Virgin Birth/miraculous conception (not to be confused with the false view of the RCC known as the “immaculate conception” of Mary) but the entire manner with which His being is made known to us during the Incarnation:
Yet to acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in flesh is not merely another way of saying that he has come into the world. “In flesh” signals not destination but mode and location: the means by which and wherein his presence is known….10
Bill Johnson Redefines the Antichrist Spirit
Bill Johnson initially defines antichrist spirit correctly (though not completely as anti can also mean “instead of”11):
The nature of the antichrist spirit is found in its name: anti, “against”; Christ, “Anointed One.”12
Yet, on the very next page he deceptively redefines the term:
It would seem that with all the significance attached to the name “Jesus,” anyone desiring to undermine His work of redemption might be referred to as “Anti-Jesus,” not “Anti-Christ.” Even religious cults recognize and value Jesus, the man. At the very least, cults consider Him to be a teacher or a prophet and possibly “a” son of God. This horrendous error provides us with an understanding of why antichrist was the name given to this spirit of opposition. The spirits of hell are at war against the anointing, for without the anointing mankind is no threat to their dominion.13
Notice the sleight of hand in the last sentence. While the preceding sentences seem to build the case as to why cults and false religions value Jesus as a man yet not as the Son of God, Johnson’s conclusion totally redefines his own definition of antichrist spirit on the previous page from “against Christ” or “against the Anointed One” to ‘against the anointing’ or ‘anti-anointing’. This revised definition is used throughout the remainder of the chapter such that anyone who is against “the anointing” (as defined in the beginning of this article) has an antichrist spirit per Johnson.
As noted in an earlier CrossWise article in which this same methodology was employed, this is the mark of cultic teaching and bears repeating here:
This is not unlike the way in which cultists work; i.e., making a series of orthodox statements and then concluding with an unorthodox sentence. The mind is prepared for a logical, orthodox conclusion so that when what seems to be an illogical or unorthodox conclusion is reached instead, the hearer/reader may reject it assuming he just did not hear or read it correctly or some other such reason. This is known as cognitive dissonance, the uncomfortable feeling in holding two conflicting views at once, which results in some sort of action to alleviate this feeling in this case which may be either by 1) rejecting the negative thought that the conclusion is unorthodox or illogical while mentally inserting one’s own orthodox or logical conclusion instead; or, 2) just dismissing the conclusion as a misunderstanding on the reader/hearer’s part; or, 3) assuming the speaker simply misspoke.
Yet, just as important if not more so, we see that Johnson has subtly split ‘Christ’ from ‘Jesus’ in his redefining above. By stating “anyone desiring to undermine His work of redemption might be referred to as ‘Anti-Jesus’ rather than ‘Anti-Christ’” and his subsequent explanation and redefinition of the antichrist spirit, Johnson seems to illustrate the very thing the Apostle John warned against – that the antichrist spirit separates “Christ” from the person of Jesus Christ. This redefinition itself could be construed as antichrist in nature. This may be confusing, but please read on.
Johnson Redefines “Christ”
This same methodology above is in evidence in the first two paragraphs which begin this chapter in Johnson’s book – he starts with the correct definition of Christ then redefines it to anointing:
Christ is not Jesus’ last name. The word Christ means “Anointed One” or “Messiah.” It is a title that points to an experience. It was not sufficient that Jesus be sent from heaven to earth with a title. He had to receive the anointing in an experience to accomplish what the Father desired.
The word anointing means “to smear.” The Holy Spirit is the oil of God that was smeared all over Jesus at His water baptism. The name Jesus Christ implies that Jesus is the One smeared with the Holy Spirit.14
In this case, Johnson is absolutely correct with his first two sentences; however, with the third through fifth he is claiming that the “title” of Christ was received in a later “experience” which he identifies as “the anointing”. This “anointing” is consistently defined throughout Johnson’s various works as noted above in the beginning of this article.
The second paragraph continues this line of thought with his concluding sentence making his redefinition clear: “The name Jesus Christ implies that Jesus is the One smeared with the Holy Spirit”. By further logical implication Jesus became “Christ” only after He was “anointed” or “smeared with the Holy Spirit” and, consequently, He was merely Jesus of Nazareth prior to this “anointing”. That this explanation/analysis is itself correct is borne out in Johnson’s own redefinition of antichrist as essentially ‘anti-anointing’. Hence, Christ = the anointing and antichrist = ‘anti-anointing’ in Bill Johnson’s theology.
As noted in the previous article, separating Christ from the person of Jesus is known as separationist Christology and is, by the Apostle John’s very definition above, antichrist Christology.
Further Explications and Implications of Johnson’s “Anointing”
With this sort of linguistic gymnastics one is left wondering what is truth and what is falsehood and what the real definition of other terms are in Johnson’s theological corpus. Which parts of Johnson’s theology can be trusted to be true and accurate?
Johnson carries this same redefinition of Christ as anointing into other works. Here in another book he states that this “Christ anointing” (aka “baptism in the Holy Spirit”) was not only for Jesus but for all in the Church:
…The outpouring of the Spirit comes to anoint the church with the same Christ anointing that rested upon Jesus in His ministry so that we might be imitators of Him…15
He makes a clear distinction between believers who would by necessity have the Holy Spirit indwelling upon conversion and “the anointing”:
The spirit of antichrist is at work today, attempting to influence believers to reject everything that has to do with the Holy Spirit’s anointing….16
Just to be clear, every truly converted Christian believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thereby has the Holy Spirit anointing as per Scripture [Eph 1:14; 2 Cor 1:21-22; 1 John 2:20]. Johnson’s “anointing” is separate and distinct.
With his redefined antichrist spirit, Bill Johnson also claims that it leads to “religious spirits” which are described as
…demonic presence that works to get us to substitute being led of our intellect instead of the Spirit of God…Anything that will take the place of dependence upon the Holy Spirit [ED actually, again, Johnson’s “anointing”] and His empowering work can be traced to the spirit of opposition.17
Here we have one of the many times Johnson promotes false dichotomies – as if the intellect and the “Spirit of God” are mutually exclusive. We worship in Spirit and Truth [John 4:24]. Yes, a person can be led of the flesh and hence his/her own mind; but, as noted by Bob DeWaay, there’s a consistent “anti-intellectual bias” permeating this book (and other works of Johnson). Also, notice how he has, in effect, drawn a line in the sand between his unorthodox doctrine of “the anointing” and orthodoxy by claiming those who allow the Spirit to lead the intellect have the “spirit of opposition” and a “demonic presence”.
He also promotes “Toronto Blessing” style manifestations while speaking negatively on anyone who opposes these.18 Near the end of the chapter in his book he attempts to flip the table on orthodoxy stating more clearly that those who “embrace Jesus apart from the anointing”, once again, have the antichrist spirit:
The antichrist spirit has a goal for the Church – embrace Jesus apart from the anointing. Without the anointing, He becomes a safe religious figure who is sure not to offend us…How can people who love God be offended by the anointing of the Holy Spirit?19
If the reader does not understand that “the anointing” is separate from the true Holy Spirit indwelling, s/he would be left wondering why anyone would reject the Holy Spirit and therefore agree with Johnson.
This illustrates quite clearly that Johnson’s Jesus is not only NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible, Johnson’s whole Christology emanates from an antichrist spirit. His Jesus could be termed ‘Jesus, the one among many anointed by “the anointing”’ (aka “Christ anointing”, “baptism in the Holy Spirit”, “presence of God”). The following words by the Apostle Paul could well define Johnson’s theology and his followers:
4For if someone comes to you and preaches another Jesus other than the Jesus we preached , or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough…13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. [2 Cor. 11:4, 13-15, NIV 1984]
But, it’s not yet too late for Bill Johnson and his followers to repent.
1Johnson, Bill, When Heaven Invades Earth: A Practical Guide to a Life of Miracles. 2003; Treasure House/Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; pp 79-86
2Johnson, Bill Face to Face with God: The Ultimate Quest to Experience His Presence. 2007; Charisma House ,Lake Mary, FL; p 77. Underscore added.
3Johnson, Face to Face; pp 21-22, 58, 77-82, 100-102
4Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 80
5Johnson, Face to Face; pp 21-22.
6Judith M. Lieu [I, II & III John: A Commentary. 2008, Westminster John Knox, Louisville, KY] does an excellent job describing vv 2:22-23 in 1 John by putting it in its original context: “It appears that what sounds like the traditional formula of belief in Jesus as Messiah has taken on a new dimension of sonship…This confirms that the force of the correct confession is ‘that Jesus is the Christ,’ and not, as is grammatically possible, ‘that the Christ [about whom we know] is Jesus [rather than someone else or as not yet appeared]’…The author’s logic is simple and can be understood within its immediate context. His strategy is to start from what matters: the real charge is not about ‘the Christ,’…Rather, it is that the antichrist denies the Father and the Son: this is no longer denial of belief about (‘that’) but a refusal to acknowledge…it is ultimately a question of acknowledging, or denying the Son…the Son is Son only in relation to the Father, and the Father is Father only in relation to the Son; to reject the Son is to reject both, even if this was not the intention” [p 106]. While Lieu refers to “sonship” this explanation works just as well with the respect to separationist or adoptionist Christology. The term separationist as regards Christology is defined in Heikki Raisanen’s The Rise of Christian Beliefs [2010, Fortress, Minneapolis, MN; p 208] and is specifically referring to 1st century proto-gnostic Cerinthus.
7Kruse, Colin G. The Letters of John: The Pillar New Testament Commentary. 2000, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI; p 144. Emphasis added.
8Kruse; p 145
9Kruse; p 145-147
10Lieu; p 167
11Vine, W.E., Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (With Topical Index). © 1996 W.E. Vine Copyright Ltd. of Bath, England, Thomas Nelson, Nashville, TN; p 30 of New Testament section.
12Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 79. Emphasis in original.
13Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 80. Emphasis in original.
14Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 79. Emphasis in original except underscore added.
15Johnson, Face to Face, p 77. Underscore added.
16Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 81
17Johnson, Heaven Invades; p 81
18Johnson, Heaven Invades; pp 81-85
19Johnson, Heaven Invades; pp 84-85
I read this article about Bill Johnson and would like to see it in context of the whole article. Also, the word Christ in the Greek means Anointed One and is a substitute/translation of the Hebrew word Messiah which does mean “The Anointed One.” As I understand it the use of “Jesus Christ” would mean, “The Anointed One” and was used to indicate Jesus the Man who was the Annointed One (and only). The use of both terms in connection was to point out that Jesus was both a Man w/ flesh and BLOOD and stand against the Gnostic heresies that were springing up at the end of the 1st century. It was the BLOOD and the Resurrection that singled out Jesus Christ from all other men, giving proof that he was who he said he was. The Jewish context of the prophesied messiah was not clear to the Jews, they thought two Messiahs might come, one a Kingly Messiah like David and the other a Suffering Servant like Joseph (whose Egyptian name meant “Savior of the World). The Gnostics had different beliefs about Jesus Christ. Some said that Judas took Jesus’ place and others said that Jesus was a spirit and only appeared to die. Both are heresies because it was the blood of Jesus shed for our sins that gives us salvation. When we talk about “Christ” we are acknowledging the Resurrected one and when we talk about Jesus we basically are acknowledging the Son of God when he walked the earth. When Bill Johnson said that the “Anti-Christ” was “Anti- the Anointing” he was in error because the Anti-Christ would be understood in translation to be “the Anti-Anointed One.” Satan is at war with God and the Son of God. Satan hates that the Son of God was willing to provide the atonement to redeem all mankind who were willing to believe, obey and follow the Son.
I have read some of Bill Johnson’s books and did not find them confusing or departing from Orthodoxy but have not recently read any of his work so I cannot judge if his article is representative of his current beliefs or his explaination was not as clear as it should have been.
I suspect it won’t be long before we start hearing about the 10 wise virgins(Christ anointed,extra virgin oil !) and 10 foolish (plain old canola oil) virgins …remember only the ones who brought the extra (anointing) oil got into the wedding! actually I’ve already heard it preached !
Seriously though,one should really think hard about all the ramifications of where they could end up down the road once they’ve embraced this “stuff”, for instance …all the emphasis and attention to the anointing, prophetic words, dreams, visions etc.will and clearly has led to a diminished regard for scripture,and doctrine which have been tested for centuries and still can be tested drawing from proven reliable sources. ALL THAT will be at the mercy of the most anointed,God appointed,new revelation receiving and eventually “unquestionably” accurate present day Apostles and Prophets. all YOUR anointed visions, dreams,words etc. will soon be of little consequence because when the time is right that kind of power and authority in the hands of a few (fallen) Super Apostles will “manifest” itself and that’s when you realize what all this really was about .Remember the “Reformation” …scripture alone!!! not the super anointed infallible apostle ( pope) and his counsel of super anointed bishops. If you think this is far fetched I assure you I know of at least seven ministers who lost their churches or ministries because thought they were free to question the prophetic directives of their apostolic “advisers”
which unbeknownst to them had morphed into something far more then just advisers. If BJ and the other apostles are already calling “us” antichrist for questioning a new concept that they can’t even defend, what do you think they might do if they thought they were the actual manifestation of “Christ” and you as a member of their body had the audacity to disagree with their “revealation”. Yep,could get real cult like real fast.
Kim K. Anderson,
The thing is, it is easy to bypass Bill Johnson’s subtle twists and redefinitions of terms. As I point out in the article Johnson does begin with correct definitions but later redefines these and this linguistic sleight of hand is either lost on the reader or, if the reader does think something is amiss, the reader will alleviate the resultant cognitive dissonance in some way. Most just assume Johnson made a slip of the tongue/pen. But, this is not so as evidenced here. As you point out antichrist should be anti-Anointed One and not ‘anti-anointing’.
If you’ve read his books before, I suggest you pick up your copy or borrow someone else’s copy of WHIE and read this chapter slowly to see if you see what I’ve written in here. The book has been recently been revised, so, I suppose it’s possible he’s changed this section. However, this redefining of terms/concepts is endemic to Johnson’s works.
What you state about the Gnostics and the Jewish expectations of two Messiahs (some agree the Qumaranians were looking for three!) are true. This is why it’s SOOO important to confess Jesus is the Christ. By inference, anyone receiving the “Christ anointing” the way Johnson describes it would become a Christ, or, as some New Agers state “christed”.
“The anointing” is an extremely important concept in hyper-charismaticism. Unfortunately, it has a New Age/occult parallel.
The following Johnson quote from this same book [p 184] is important when viewed within the context of the content of this article:
The presence of God is to be realized in the anointing. Remember, anointing means smeared– it is God covering us with His power-filled presence. Supernatural things happen when we walk in the anointing!
This illustrates a number of things. 1) “the anointing” Jesus received is the same one anyone can receive; 2) when one receives this “anointing” it could be construed that one receives the title of Christ themselves (already inferred in the article but made more clear by using the same “smeared” phraseology); 3) it makes it sound as though one does not have “the presence of God” until one receives this “anointing” 4) supernatural things may not, or even will not, happen unless one receives this “anointing” which implies that the ‘born again’ Holy Spirit indwelt believer may not or will not be able to have God work the supernatural in and through them without this “anointing”.
Craig:
As one who has spent years researching false belief systems, I appreciate your efforts to bring the light of truth to Bill Johnson’s dark and twisted teachings.
Johnson is well-versed in the art of manipulation, in that he has the ability to manipulate people into believing in his manipulated teachings. As a false teacher, Johnson is very subtle. He twists the truth of God’s written word into a doctrinal pretzel, which makes it virtually impossible for the average Christian to discern.
However, Craig, you have reversed the process, exposed the ingredients that Johnson uses in his Scripture-twisting recipe, and have unwound his doctrinal pretzel for the world to see.
I pray that God will richly bless your efforts, and use your vital research to open the eyes of those who have fallen prey to Bill Johnson’s manipulation.
Bud Press, Research Consultant,
Christian Research Service
Craig,
Thanks for Part 2. You wrote, “This is known as cognitive dissonance, the uncomfortable feeling in holding two conflicting views at once, which results in some sort of action to alleviate this feeling in this case which may be either by 1) rejecting the negative thought that the conclusion is unorthodox or illogical while mentally inserting one’s own orthodox or logical conclusion instead; or, 2) just dismissing the conclusion as a misunderstanding on the reader/hearer’s part; or, 3) assuming the speaker simply misspoke.
From my own experience, this very thing happened frequently. I used point #1 to settle the question. For example, it is often stated in our church that God wants to takes us to the “next level”. Of course, the Bible does not talk about “levels” in the Christian life. It does, however, talk about growing in Christ. So I adjusted my “receptors” and understood that term to mean spiritual growth.
But in the hypercharismatic realm, advancing levels in the kingdom means a higher function in the “anointing”. This can mean almost anything from going deeper in “soaking”, more visions, operating in the prophetic, etc. Whereas spiritual growth is learning humility, growing in patience and wisdom and faith, more extensive knowledge of the Word, etc.
YesNa,
Actually, this is not part II as this is sort of ‘bridge’ to part II. It will be referenced as a hyperlink so that I won’t have to make part II any longer than I know it’s going to be.
Thanks for you comment on cognitive dissonance. Interestingly, in New Age there ARE levels (as in Gnosticism as well) as each one gets the individual closer to attaining godhood. Two articles ago I show how Johnson makes it sound as though increasing “repentance” brings one increasing levels of ‘seeing’ the Kingdom. Obviously, a similar concept to what you’ve experienced and similar to the New Age. While doing more research, I found this BJ quote which concisely illustrates this idea:
Many Christians repent enough to get forgiven, but not enough to see the Kingdom.
As I read Johnson I believe this ‘not repenting enough’ means to be ‘merely’ initial conversion; but, once you get “the anointing” you are on the path to increase your ‘seeing’ into the Kingdom. This parallels a New Age concept.
Is this entire blog dedicated to throwing the first stone? What is edifying about anything you say here? If we are called to follow Christ and become love, you can spend all of your time writing about other Christians you find faults with. Does anyone not agree?
It was Bill Johnson who ‘threw the first stone’ back in 2003 with the publishing of this book and it was aimed right at Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. We are called to follow Christ, the REAL Jesus Christ of the Bible, not the one Bill Johnson preaches.
You’re not throwing the first stone at me, are you?
Justin, I invested 15 years of my life in my former church, establishing relationships, kids were baptised there, baby dedicated, etc. I was very involved there as was my whole family. Then the Bethel (BJ) effect hit and in a few short months I finally realized the leadership was not going to reconcider their “new” direction .Things were “happening” and those who protested were to be ignored . Think about it …. how many families across the country (globe!) had to uproot from what they thought was good soil because of the “bethel effect” on their churches leadership. It is not just a minor addition or trivial temp. program tagged on …. IT TAKES OVER THE WHOLE CHURCH !! it affects every ministry and you have to make a choice to go with it or leave.When a church embraces this stuff it more often then not results in a “split”. I really don’t think the folks that express stong feelings about this issue are just armchair critics that like throwing rocks to start fights.
‘Throwing stones’ seems to be another NAR/hyper-charismatic term that is used a lot when talking about those who have anything negative to say about their favorite teachers. When I questioned the the things that were going on in the church that I left, I was accused of ‘throwing stones’ at those whose doctrines I questioned.
I think it’s supposed to be a reference to the biblical practice of stoning, specifically the woman caught in adultery. That’s my guess.
Basically, saying anything negative = throwing a stone
I’d never heard anyone use that term until this fall when I wrote my e-mail about my concerns with the Voice of Apostles web conference that they were offering to the church.
I simply stated my concerns about the teachers that they were going to show (Randy Clark, Bill Johnson, and Heidi Baker) and the doctrines that these individuals taught. They saw my questioning of these people as ‘throwing stones.’
I’m convinced that this ‘stone throwing’ language is being used because of the fact that they do not like critical thinking (and by critical thinking I’m talking about the concept that college professors want their students to use when reading and examining material — basically reasoning — not viewing everything negatively, as some might think.)
I don’t know what these hyper-charismatics would have thought of Paul or Jesus or any of the Old Testament prophets when they questioned the doctrine and practices of people in their time.
Justin, we are called to test everything. We must. Jesus told us to do this — we are commanded to guard our doctrine closely.
Well, I suppose stating that someone is “throwing the first stone” is better than claiming they have a “religious spirit” which results eventually in a “demonic presence” and the individual therefore has an antichrist spirit as Johnson does in this book.
Justin…pillowy, soft, undefinable, esoteric, experiential, flowery definitions of love calling all who don’t give a care in the world about concise doctrine to jump into a tributary of mysticism and ride the waves of error with them into the unknowable areas of the New Apostolic doctrine.
Romans 16
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
In my Bible, love is telling the truth. And you had better be sure of your doctrine because Satan is a master at twisting doctrine for his own agenda. He has ONE agenda and MANY lies.
God has ONE truth and it is Christ. Not the New Age Christ. Not the Anti Christ, not the New Apostolic Christ and not the Christ of our imagination and experience. It is the Christ, the Word, unchangeable, undisputible and unredefinable. Justin…dig into the Word for your wisdom. That’s the ONLY place you will find it….and the truth about love, ours and God’s.
Satan’s agenda. He intends to be worshipped as God. Right now he is worshipped by Satanists and Occultists and New Agers as God and he has prepared the apostate church to worship him as well…by following the false “annointing” doctrine, with hands raised, feelings of ecstacy, the emptying of the mind and iconic worship, etc. These have all been preparations for leading the whole world into worshipping him AS GOD.
We know Satan’s agenda…what I think we are discussing, is How He is achieving it. That is what the discussion on Antichrist is all about. We MUST define GOD, or we WILL find ourselves worshipping some version of God other than the Biblical one, in other words, Antichrist.
I don’t know where you people are, but I am just north of Charlotte, NC where the majority of these people (or the remnants) are headquartered. Rick Joyner & deceivbles are in the old PTL Heritage building, they have spawned “River” movements all over, placing 1 or 2 of their people in churches & trying to take over. This has been going on for about 20 years or more. My sister kept questioning me about this man that was coming to their church and kept giving out ‘prophecies’ all during the service. If the pastor didn’t acquiesce, the member who got the ‘prophet’ there (powerful influence) would show out. I went and low & behold it was Bob Jones….he launched into one of his ‘prophecies’ and it was nothing but blubbering & hogwash. I told her the man was a charlatan, tell the pastor how they felt, if he didn’t stop it they should leave the church. He finally did stop him, big church split, the pastor resigned, Bob Jones moved back to Morning Star and the church was left in ruins. It is so sad people don’t know the word…the biggest problem facing the world today……The great apostasy of 2 Thess 2:3 that signals the end
Rob,
Bob Jones is spriritually a very dangerous man. While he is not the subject of this particular post, Jones is an occasional guest speaker at Bill Johnson’s Bethel church and is specifically listed as a “friend” on one of Johnson’s sites.
Yes, the Great Apostasy.
Bob Jones is one of the common threads that runs through all of these ‘ministries’… he was instrumental to Mike Bickel/IHOP (in fact, when Bickel first met him he felt like he was a false prophet – but ignored the feeling – that would be ‘judging’, I guess), Todd Bentley/Rick Joyner/Patricia King, John Arnott/Toronto, Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, and on and on….they are all basing their ‘way’ on prophecies/words given by Jones to one degree or another.
Mary,
You are correct, of course. Also important, although less so now it seems, is Paul Cain.
While I do believe that God can give someone the gift of prophecy, I strongly believe that it is supposed to be used for the building up of the church, not its destruction.
I think it’s far to easy for people to be lured into the idea of prophecy….and that a counterfeit prophecy (false prophecy) power can really lead people away from God. I think this counterfeit prophetic thing is a big part of why so many people have been deceived.
I mean, if someone seems to prophecy good things about you — things that you’ve dreamed about or would really like to happen, then a person is a lot less likely to test the doctrines of the person who gave such a prophecy. If a person seems to say something and it comes true, or if they appear to have knowledge about someone — that’s very powerful. That’s also the reason that people get snared into following psychics.
Satan will do whatever he can to pull people away from God. That’s ultimately what happens when people start following false prophets and psychics. Instead of trusting God, they are trusting in another person’s “ability.”
Bob Jones and those he has influenced are leading people deeper and deeper into the occult. They are leading people away from the God of the Bible and away from sound doctrine.
That was Vineyard’s mistake. They trusted in false prophets who promised great things for the movement…..and they never fully eradicated this stuff from the movement. I hope they do sometime….I still pray for the Vineyard on all levels.
Regarding Vineyard: Did you see my two part article on the history of KCF (roots of IHOP) and Vineyard?
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/did-ernie-gruen-recant-his-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-documentregarding-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/in-exonerating-paul-cain-is-the-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-invalidated/
Of interest is that James A. Beverley [Holy Laughter & the Toronto Blessing: An Investigative Report. 1995, Zondervan Publishing, Grand Rapids, MI] specifically stated that some of Jones’ ‘prophecies’ were given after the fact as I note in the 2nd article above. Here’s a summation of both at the end of the 2nd article above:
_________________________
Let’s compare this “drought prophecy” to the circumstances surrounding the 1988
“earthquake prophecy.” Jack Deere initially ‘misquoted’ the timing of the
second earthquake, however later he recalled “in vivid detail” the ‘facts’ of
this “prophecy.” As shown above, Deere had difficulty with details of a
“prophecy” of a much more personal nature with both conflicting and added
details coming later, so his memory would seem to be questionable. Mike Bickle
would also incorrectly record the timing of the second earthquake in his 1996
book Growing in the Prophetic. John Wimber later was unsure whether it was
actually predicted or not.
The circumstances surrounding the “drought prophecy” are similarly troubling.
Given that the “drought prophecy” was initially one of no rain with very
specific parameters including a drought-breaking rain on a specified date, it’s
odd that the final Wimber (and/or Deere) version is one of limited rainfall, a
different starting date, and no specified drought-breaking end date but instead
a rather nebulous “early October” ending. To quote Beverley: “…many of Bob
Jones predictions were announced ex post facto”105 – after the fact.
Given the evolving nature of the “drought prophecy,” was it among those announced
after the fact despite the claim to the contrary?
In each case there is no recorded proof either in written form or in audio to
confirm these “prophecies” were given in advance. Given that the “earthquake
prophecy” was to validate Cain’s message to the Vineyard and the “drought
prophecy” was to provide legitimacy to the KCF “movement,” why weren’t these
“prophecies” recorded in such a manner to prove their veracity? Absent any sort
of proof, it would be prudent to remain skeptical – especially given the
circumstances as outlined above in each of these.
If Cain were to have remained discredited in the Gruen Document, this could cast
further doubt on the legitimacy of Cain’s “earthquake prophecy” which would in
turn cast a long shadow on the Vineyard in general as it was Cain’s message
which validated the Vineyard involvement in the “prophetic movement” in the
first place. With stakes this high, the pressure to discredit the Gruen
Document and to exonerate Cain must have been enormous.
______________________________________
Craig,
Yes, I think I did see your articles regarding Kansas City Fellowship/IHop.
I have to say that I am very thankful that IHOP, Bob Jones, Jack Deere, Paul Cain, and many of the other “prophets” are no longer officially associated with the Vineyard. This, of course, does not mean that no Vineyard pastor or church associates themselves with these people. I know that there are Vineyards that do.
In fact, some people in the Vineyard consider Bob Jones, specifically, to be a heretic. (Those same individuals would probably consider the others to be in error as well.)
However, this doesn’t take away the fact that these people certainly played an important role in the Vineyard, at one time. I read the forward to the Hank Hanegraaff “Counterfeit Revival.” If the Vineyard leader who wrote that testimony gave an honest account, which I don’t see any reason to doubt, then the “prophets” had a major role in Vineyard leadership at one point in time.
Since the movement has not been decisive on these things — I have not seen an official recant of the Toronto Blessing or the prophets, and since Vineyard allows a variety of theological ideas, there are churches that are running around that still promote this stuff. There are others that are against it. I really wish Vineyard would speak out about this, and that there would be public repentance for what happened in the movements past. I wish they would say, “these people are false teachers.”
This hunger for prophetic words to be fulfilled really is the downfall of this and other charismatic/Pentecostal type churches. I remember someone prophesying that the Vineyard congregation that I left would get a certain building. People were all excited about it. Then it didn’t happen. There were other prophecies that were given that were similar. I don’t know how people can tolerate false prophecies for years and years and years.
It doesn’t surprise me that false prophets and their accomplices would announce things ex post facto. If they are out to deceive people, then that would be “proof” that they get things right some of the time. However, I do not doubt that false prophets are sometimes given correct words as well — like in the forward to the book — where the “prophets” give specific details about people’s childhoods or their lives.
I know for a fact that Satan can seem to “give” people a sort of counterfeit prophecy. I witnessed this in a wiccan college student my freshmen year. I started college in the fall of 2001. A few days before 9/11, I remember she told me she was terrified because she knew that something really bad would happen on Tuesday. She didn’t know what it was, but she was scared. I believe that she had this knowledge from occult means. This wouldn’t have been difficult for demons to let her know because they could have inspired the people to carry it out.
That is one major reason why I do not doubt a demon’s ability to correctly “predict” something, if the purpose is to lead people away from God — if the purpose is to kill, steal, and destroy. If a person can be deceived into thinking that someone is speaking for God if they can give correct information regarding a person, then I think they are going to do it. I think God allows it because these people have abandoned sound doctrine.
I do not trust any word that has ever come from Cain. From the information you provided, it seems to me that Cain deceived people in the Vineyard regarding the earthquake prophecy, and that people wanted to see what they believed. Since they wanted Vineyard to be special, of course they would read into the prophecy, editing it as they went. This should have proved Cain to be false.
Arwen4CJ:
I have been in a Charismatic church for 17 years. A few years ago I was in a hypercharismatic church. The pastor there said that a (personal) prophecy depends on the person receiving it. For example, if a prophecy states that one is going to walk in greater fullness and see a financial increase, etc., the requirement is for the individual to live in such a way as to receive it. In other words, if it doesn’t come to pass, it is the person’s fault, not God’s. Sure takes the spotlight off the so-called prophet. What deception! I am coming to see things more clearly as I understand law vs. grace. This stuff is all “law”– requirements. And it puts sheep into a great bondage, which is what the law does.
When a prophet predicts an earthquake, hurricane, etc., it now becomes the responsibility of the super anointed sheep to take authority over it and bind it. If the event didn’t happen, they can claim their victory and credit. (Of course, they give God all the credit, but it’s really because we prayed in our new super- technique anointing.)
This doesn’t account for the ex-post facto prophecies. But with all the deception going around, who notices such trivial details anyway? After all, Bonke is growing legs, arms, eyes in Africa and raising folks from the dead. He’s a Christian, after all. Why wouldn’t we believe every thing that is said?
I think, too, that much of this stems from pride/a fear of man. Jesus talked much about faith and the lack of it. Not many works done in His own country because of their unbelief…faith to move a mountain…faith of the Centurion, etc. We have to prove our faith, so we’ll believe for great, impossible things. The stakes are high. Peoples’ lives are in the balance. We must pray the cancer away. If you don’t have faith to believe in a miracle healing, don’t come to the prayer service or visit the person in the hospital. No unbelief allowed here. (Actually had that told to me.)
Of course, we must pray in faith believing. However, there is balance. But we have long ago gone over the edge of this spiritually destructive cliff. I was raised in a Baptist church where I heard so many glum and defeated prayers. I understand there is a prayer of faith, hope and expectation. But there must also be an acceptance of God’s purposes in grace.
This hurts the youngest sheep the most. One boy needed surgery for a congenital defect. The parents asked for prayer. Another member got up and rebuked the church for not believing in a miracle. The entire service was wrenched away and a great “move” of prayer and praise for God’s miracle that was “already accomplished in the Spirit”. I did not join in. Because of other circumstances the surgery was cancelled only to be rescheduled 2 weeks later. What did it do to the little boy’s heart and faith in God?
Similarly, another boy was born with a debilitating disease very similar to cerebral palsy. From the time of his infancy until he was about 10 or 11, the children of the church were taught to pray for his healing. What did it tell him? “There’s something wrong with you. You need to be fixed.” The youth of our church in this age group are extremely rebellious and disrespectful of all authority. Could anger against God and spiritual leadership be part of the cause, because the boy has never been “healed”? My heart breaks.
YesNaSpanishTown,
At the time of some of the prophecies in the congregation that I’m speaking of, the people were not really hyper-charismatic…at least not in the sense that we see in Bill Johnson and similar ministries. Yes, there were people giving personal prophecies to individuals, and some of them were false words.
The first three years I went there, I ignored the false prophecies because it wasn’t a huge part of the church. The pastor preached orthodox doctrine and every sermon led back to the gospel. He confronted real sin in his sermons, etc. I liked the church a lot even though there were a few people who gave prophecies way too often, in my opinion. Now, there weren’t prophecies given every week or whatever, just at certain times — like when they were trying to figure out what to do with getting a new building.
I do believe that the way they handled prophecies was wrong, and I think that they needed to put more restriction on them, but they were not what people focused on at that time in that church. I do see, however, how specific people in the church did put too much focus on this stuff. Those who did began to feel discouraged. There were also individuals in the church who thought that it should be more hyper-charismatic, but the pastor must have had some guidelines in this area and didn’t have an anything goes policy.
Well, that pastor’s wife died and ended up getting remarried. When he got remarried, he left the church. There was a period of time between his leaving and the new pastor coming in which there was no senior pastor. It was during this period of time that the whole “revival” in Florida happened with Todd Bentley. Some in the church tried to bring that into it, however it wasn’t something that they brought up during regular worship, but it was at an extended time of worship that very few people attended that they brought it up. I was there, and I walked out when they invited people forward to receive an ‘impartation.” I couldn’t stand it. I wanted no part of that “revival.” I wrote an e-mail to some of the leaders in the church and shared my concerns with them. They prayerfully considered what I said, and they made a decision that they wanted nothing to do with Todd Bentley or the revival. I wasn’t there at there discussions, but that was the ultimate outcome.
Well, in late summer to early fall of that year, they hired a new pastor. This new pastor is the one that I have written about before. He is certainly more hyper-charismatic than the previous pastor, having once attended Dutch Sheets’ church. He is slowly bringing in NAR doctrine and practices. That’s why I ended up leaving the church. The gospel was no longer being preached and the pastor wouldn’t take my concerns seriously. In effect, they showed me that they were going to follow this new pastor in whatever direction he led the church. The pastor called me an elder brother, said something must be wrong with my relationship with God, and said I had taken it upon myself to be doctrine police.
So…there’s actually a continuum in regard to things like prophecy. With the old pastor, there was no sort of explanation for why a personal prophecy might not come true. There was no blame given to anyone. There was no faith language used. I would guess that this is probably the way it is in most churches before they accept all the hyper-charismatic doctrine.
Hyper-charismatic doctrine forms on an as needed basis. Some early in the movement probably were feeling discouraged, so an explanation was created for why things didn’t happen. The church I left isn’t quite there yet…or wasn’t the last time I was there.
What I’m trying to say is your description of what happened in the hyper charismatic churches you’ve been a part of isn’t necessarily how all people in all charismatic churches think.
Arwen4CJ:
Yes, I agree with you. I wasn’t trying to say that it is how all people in Charismatic churches think. However, as we well know, once these “teachings” get started they spread and it becomes more common or the standard. “Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 1 Cor. 15:33.
I made the statement by way of information–just another way of opening the door for false teachers and prophets to spread their lies.
Thank you for the clarification. I do appreciate the explanation. It does demonstrate the lengths that some leaders will go in order to try to justify false teachings. It certainly makes the false teachings and practices even worse by turning the recipients of the false prophecies into victims.
I think that your comment is valuable in showing what is going on in some hyper-charismatic churches, and why it is so hard for some in these churches not to leave — instead of judging the prophecies from biblical means, they assume that the fault was with them instead.
Your explanation does help to explain why a large number of people in this movement do not leave due to the false prophecies given. I wondered how so many people could still follow after Bob Jones and Dutch Sheets and the others.
It’s really good to hear the perspective of others and hear about their experiences because it does help make sense of things.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood your response earlier.
This is good, I too come from a life long Charasmatic background I have experienced dynamic miracles multiple times ,I believe in the gifts-all of them but being Charismatic by no means requires me to accept the NAR teachings on it.The scripture tells us there must needs be herisies (divisions ) among us in order that the Truth might become known more clearly. We must hold on to that which is sure and reject the false…but not throw the “baby out with the bathwater” even when discovering the right balanced perspective seems so difficult. that is a key benifit to blogs like this one. keep diggin’ cause those who read this will be much more alert to that… and remember we will always have THE more sure word of prophecy (as long as its king james of course..lol)
Hi Guys. Good comments. May I chime in with a couple of thoughts.
Re: the pastor that said that you had taken it upon yourself to be the doctrine police. That’s nonsense. We should all be doctrine police. There would be less doctrine criminals.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Do these people know what they are doing? I believe that there are three kinds of people in the church.
The first kind are deceivers who are deliberately trying to push a New Age agenda of Paradigm Shift by prophetic chaos, Catholic mystical practice and/or Babylonish whoredom. They are tearing down all the old ways in order to bring about this transformation. And of course they are being led by the spirits of antichrist.
Secondly there are those pastors that are caught up in the mileu with an appreciation for the excitement of numbers, the climate of change, the atmosphere of being part of something big and a sense of going places…success in their chosen field.
And thirdly there are those who have no idea what is happening…they are being slowly and most certainly indoctrinated while having their latte, watching the latest rock concert in a church building and/or rolling on the floor, too intoxicated to think about anything but the ecstatic moment.
Jeremiah 6:15-17 (King James Version)
15Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
Reminder to us all: There is One who sees all, as a matter of fact, he sits in the heavens and laughs at those who conspire against him. Ps. 2. We can know that nothing escapes his notice. But our one hope is to tie ourselves to the old paths, the word of truth and remain standing when everyone else around us is falling. Incidently…anyone know much about shaktipat? It’s a study in itself but it describes what’s happening in the church with the laying on of hands and people falling backwards under their (anointed) touch. We, on the other hand need to stand!
Right about saying we should all be doctrine police. I think you are correct about there being different types of Christians out there. However, only God knows which category they fall into. I cannot judge people’s hearts.
I guess I would state it a little differently:
Type 1 = People who are knowingly in allegiance with Satan and demons — they would purposely be trying to lead the church away from God and get people to contact demons. These people know what they are doing. The New Age ideas just happen to be part of false spirituality, which is inspired by demons. The problem isn’t the New Age itself, but rather where those beliefs lead a person — to ultimately follow after Satan. These people may say they contact “angels,” and they would know full well that they were demons. They would try to trick other people down that path, and they would do whatever it would take. It wouldn’t matter if the people knew they were actually following demons or not. Maybe only the people in leadership would have to know. Yes, these would be informed deceivers.
Type 2 = People who do not know that they are actually contacting demons or participating in occult activity. These people might sincerely believe that they are following after Christ and they may have good intentions. However, they are deceived themselves, and thus they deceive others. Yes, they may care about numbers and excitement and whatnot — but I think that they are sincere in that they want to see God move. They are fascinated by the supernatural and think they are not seeing power, something is wrong. They promote experiencing the supernatural at the expense of doctrine.
Type 3 = Same as type 2, only more extreme. These people may or may not have the intention of wanting to follow after God. Perhaps they just want a party scene, and they see hyper-charismatic functions as a place to get the next high.
Type 4 = True Christians who have been brought into this movement because of their sincerity of following after God. They are on fire for Him, and they think that He is moving at a particular church. If they are true Christians, then it won’t take them long to realize that the doctrine taught doesn’t line up with Scripture. They will either leave the church or they will become deceived themselves.
Arwen4CJ – It is good to see other’s perspective on what kind of people are in the apostate churches. Actually, there are many more than just 3 or 4 groups and everything in between. I guess my point (and yours) is that there are those that are “in the know” and those that are clueless followers, there for whatever reason. And then there are the true Christians who aren’t sitting in pews anymore. The sifting process has taken them out of the way of sinners and mockers and set them somewhere where they can meditate on the things of God and still be salt and light in this world until they are taken out of the world to be with the Lord forever.
YesNaSpanishTown – what you are describing is witchcraft. The people have to perform some ritualistic (law) in order to get what they want. Performance and speaking the right words brings the desired results. Alternatively, God wants us to ask him for what we need. Simple as that.
The reason we fall into these Satanic teachings is that we are asking God for what we need without faith because we are ignorant of the Word (and Satan’s devices). Therefore, we have the cart before the horse. We don’t know WHO God is and what he wants. Consequently, what becomes all important is what WE want. And how to get it is the next logical step. How to get it (without knowledge of God) is always based on works of the flesh be it “the law” or witchcraft (which is positive thinking, law of attraction, word of faith doctrine, secret societal doctrines, occult rituals etc.) What we do or say is central.
Whereas when we know who God is, we can trust him, we can wait patiently, we can see things fall into place as he determines, we can cry to him and he will deliver us, we can acknowledge all his works to the children of mankind and have our faith built up, we can know the enemy that surrounds us and not be afraid because we know that he who is with us is greater than he that is in the world. The list is endless, but you get the picture.
When we put the horse in front of the cart, everything is as it should be. Isn’t our God great!?
Ok just for the sake of discussion or to make us think, and I hope I am not being redundant…but to go along with my question of “Do these people (leaders in the churches) who are changing things in radical ways know what they are doing” I will follow it with another question: “If the leaders don’t know what they’re doing how is it that all the jargon and practices of the New Age are ending up in the church?
Is it because:
a. the leaders think words like paradigm shift, connect, goddess, transformation, change your DNA, convergence, awakening, Ascension, Lightening, Portal, …etc. ad infinity are cool and they just like to name their churches and conferences after them?
b. is the world’s indoctrination via television, music, movies, media and books so pervasive that these words have quietly crept into their subconscious thinking and become part of their vocabulary?
c. or have the leaders come in as hypocritical liars, deceivers, angels of light, wolves in sheep’s clothing who are changing things at level of evil conspiracy, and consciously and systematically
dissolving the old order of Christianity so they can bring in a blasphemous work of the enemy of Christ?
d. are the leaders who are working as children of disobedience knowledgeable of the hidden and secret meanings of the New Age symbols and phrases, numerology and secret language they are using or are they getting their ideas from outside marketers to grow their churches?
e. is the seemingly chaotic thing that is happening in the churches, rather, an ordered, planned and diabolical invasion of darkness?
Well, of course, the answer is yes to all the above. Obviously, there is a mastermind behind all that is happening in the churches. Those apostate Christians, in name only, who do not have the Spirit and have laid down their Bibles will continue to operate by the spirits of deception and under the principles of darkness as the diabolical orders are given and the planned ascension of Lucifer to his throne plays out. The dots of this kingdom of darkness are being connected with exponential speed.
Although we don’t know individual’s motives, there is a Mastermind who does. It is the Living Word of God, the discerner of all things, by whose light we are able to see what is happening and where it is headed. He will divert us around the craters of deceit, as well as guide us to avoid the traps and enticements of evil both in ourselves and our leaders. As a great encouragement to us today:
Hebrews 4 (King James Version)
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
I agree that we do not battle against flesh and blood, but rather there are evil spirits that are deceiving people. If New Agers, pagans/wiccans, and certain “Christians” are all hearing from the same sources (demons), then it makes sense that those in these movements would come up with the same doctrines. These are doctrines taught by demons.
Now, I do think that we need to pay more attention to the actual doctrine that is being taught by these groups rather than specific words or phrases that are used. This doesn’t mean that we should ignore the similar words and phrases, but I also think that we should be careful not to make assumptions based off of a word. Many words have more than one meaning, and it all depends on the context. I only say this because I’ve seen some very poorly done apologetic sites in which the author says, “The New Age uses this term and so does X group. Therefore they are teaching the New Age concept.”
Now, if in context, they are using the word or phrase the same way that the occult does, then certainly expose it. If there is a practice that is done in the occult, and there is the exact same practice done in a Christian group, expose it.
Now, as examples you brought up the following list:
“paradigm shift, connect, goddess, transformation, change your DNA, convergence, awakening, Ascension, Lightening, Portal”
Connect, transformation, convergence, and paradigm shift could be used to mean different things from what they mean in the New Age.
I myself don’t like using the term ‘paradigm shift,’ but it has found meaning outside of the New Age movement. Many academic disciplines have begun using the term to mean a change in thinking in their particular field of study, such as a different theoretical model. I don’t like a pastor using it in church, but a pastor using it doesn’t mean that he’s using it in the New Age way. Maybe the pastor is trying to explain a different model or approach to evangelism, Christian education, service in the community, etc.
Transformation is in itself a biblical concept — so it all depends on how it is defined and how it is used by a church.
Convergence is a little odder, but it can be used in a sentence intelligently to mean something other than how the New Age would use it. If a pastor is using it, then he probably has a more educated congregation in which he could use a larger vocabulary. It isn’t a common word, and it isn’t used much in church, but I wouldn’t flag someone as a New Ager just because they used the term. As with the other words, I would need to see it used in context.
Well, awakening and lightning or lightening might be used as an illustration to mean something non-New Age. They might say something like “When someone trusts in Christ, then that person often finds that the load they have been carrying around is lightened,” or something like that. Again, context would be essential.
Hey, and ascension could definitely be used in church if the pastor is talking about Jesus’ ascension into heaven after His resurrection.
Context means everything, which I’m sure you already know
I just say that because of what I’ve seen on other people’s websites. If we’re going to have a discussion about that, I just wanted to make sure to point that out.
Also, it might be helpful to the discussion if we used the term ‘occult’ rather than just ‘New Age’ because occult is broader, and it encompasses the New Age. I also think that using the term ‘occult’ keeps it in the front of our minds that we are dealing with demonic powers. That’s just my opinion. If others want to use ‘New Age,’ that is all right with me. I’ve used it before, but I’m going to personally try to use ‘occult’ most of the time instead.
Oh, one quick question. Are some churches really using the term ‘goddess’ in a positive way? I think I’ve heard of certain hyper-charismatic leaders using all of the other terms in occult ways, but I haven’t heard of them using the term goddess.
Carolyn, there’s an article written by Albert James Dager called “Kingdom Theology”
( http://www.harvestnet.org/revref/kingdom1.htm ) that I found extremely helpful in regards to the origins of many of the common themes and terminology ones encounters in this maze of mixture we are up against. Its a bit of a “read” but well worth it even for someone who came out of this “stuff”. I found the info on “Franklin Hall” and of course “William Branham” most intriguing …gold dust ,glory cloud, extreme fasting etc. its all there and a bucket load of new age, occultic ,teaching ta’ boot. I wish those who think we’re crazy for opposing this “stuff” would read this too and realize how far amiss the “movement ” they defend really is! nothin’ new under the sun…
Tim,
I’ve got a section on Branham here since both Johnson and Kris Vallotton promoted him. Here’s a snippet:
Branham also taught that all Christian denominations lacked full revelation (Branham’s, that is), that denominations were the mark of the beast [Rev 13:16], and, thus, all those attending denominational churches were not really saved and are, in fact, antichrist.8 All congregants of denominations are actually the pale horse, death, of the fourth seal of Revelation [Rev 6:7-8] and will be killed off by the collective white horses made up of Jesus and the ‘church’ [Rev 19:14].
Notice a pattern re: antichrist?
Also, in this article on Paul Cain and Kansas City Fellowship is something on Branham as comparison:
Cain’s admitted association with and promotion of William Branham as “the greatest prophet that ever lived” raises an associated question as there are those who believe Branham was an agent of the occult. Kurt Koch relates that Branham was limited in his healing: “if my angel does not give the sign, I cannot heal.”42 The following, in his book Occult A-B-C, provides more indication of occultism:
Another evidence [of spiritistic (occult) healing] is the fact that…Branham [was unable] to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of [Jesus] Christ…When he [Branham] spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers in the audience – including myself – who prayed along these lines: “Lord, if this man’s powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him.” The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, “There are disturbing powers here, I can do nothing.”
__________________________________
Disturbing powers?
Tim,
The material you reference of Dager is available in his full length book Vengeance Is Ours which is available at Media Spotlight. I highly recommend the book as an overall view of hyper-charistmaticism, its roots (Latter Rain, occult, etc), Theosophical roots of parts of ‘Christianity’, etc. I’ve referenced Dager’s work on here.
Wow….that article that TimBain linked……
That is exactly the kind of thing that I’ve been looking for — a good article by someone who believes that the spiritual gifts are still for today, but who also is disturbed by some of the stuff going on, coming to the conclusion that some of what is done by hyper-charismatics is demonic in origin.
Very good stuff! I’ll have to read that book, since Craig has informed us that it is part of a book
They don’t believe they can be deceived – ‘we don’t worry about what the devil does’. They think because there are all the signs and wonders going on around them, that they must be on the right track. They have each others’ new revelations that they stand on as gospel – ignoring Paul’s warnings about not going beyond what is written.
Sin, repentance, salvation doesn’t matter anymore – it’s all about the kingdom and signs and wonders. Jesus is on the level of man and man is on the level of God. Because Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration with Moses and Elijah – they too can converse with the ‘dead’ – and ‘absorb’ and get ‘recharged’ with their annointings from their graves…Everything is spiritual to them – and spiritual means from God. They also see themselves as equal with Jesus – the older brother – forgetting that He is God – that He is unique – and not the same as us.
They say eat the meat and spit out the bones – only they don’t define what bones are. They also quote 1 Thes 5:21 “test all things, hold fast what is good”…only they need to have the same definition of ‘good’ that God does. Just because we think something is good – doesn’t mean God does. His thoughts are higher than ours and if we are calling something good that is actually evil then woe to us. Matthew 7:21 speaks of those who prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name and did many wonders in His name – and yet, Jesus will say to them He never knew them….something was missing – they were doing good – but not God’s ‘good’. In fact, Jesus said they were practicing lawlessness!
In my opinion – because the ‘power’ appealed to their pride – lust of the flesh – (like Simon the sorcerer), they probably took classes on these subjects (how to heal, prophesy, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc.) but they were not born again – We remain in the kingdom of darkness until we are – He doesn’t know us if we are not born again. And since they rarely, if at all, mention sin and repentance anymore, so as not to offend, they remain in darkness. Even Satan and the demons know Jesus and tremble. I do believe that these signs and wonders follow us as we preach the gospel – by the sovereignty of God as He works through us – not because we ‘know how to do it’ – for without Him we can do nothing.
…they probably took classes on these subjects (how to heal, prophesy, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc.)…
You mean perhaps like BSSM (Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry)?
In occult lingo the devil (in Alice Bailey, the “Black Lodge”) is actually things of God. Everything is flipped on its head. Isn’t there a Scripture about ‘right’ being ‘wrong’ and ‘wrong’ being ‘right’ near the end?…
Craig, Thanks for the book reference,I may just purchase a couple copies…I’m one that comprehends best when I look at things from the broader perspective, Dager sure covers that!
You… went to a Branham meeting ?( for a moment there I felt “young” again ) My dad was at the Sharon Bible School in 48′ and my folks followed Jim Watt after he left N.Battleford…I was just a lad at the time but got plenty of “exposure” growing up in those circles. My Dad really took it hard when his “hero’s” of the faith started being exposed…kinda shut down in `a manner of speaking. I pray this generation isn’t lost to the same deception and blame God for it… so MANY of them.
anyway … I was just thinking with regard to William Branham,the fact that he is held in such high regard by Johnson and the others demonstrates how desperate they are to “qualify” their actions, they seem to always have to Push it or Pull it to make things “work” can’t just trust and rest in a finished work.
If only this generation was more aware of things that happened what seems like just a short time ago. We’ve been debating things that took place 2000 years ago when just 50 could make a huge difference as well.
Tim,
No, sorry to confuse – I did not go to a Branham meeting, I’m much too young. I was quoting from a book by Kurt Koch (see link in the comment for full context).
Craig, yes, I should have put quotes around ‘classes’.
Also, your point about ‘cognitive dissonance’ explains so much about why those who have been believers for a long time and are staying in the whole Bethel/Toronto ‘group’. They are filtering what Johnson (& others) say through their own understanding and assume that that’s what he/they meant instead of what he/they actually said – or they doubt themselves that they may have heard wrong – but are afraid to stand up and say anything (not wanting to appear ‘picky’) – peer pressure is huge in this – no one wants to look like they just aren’t ‘spiritual’ enough to ‘get it’ – which leads to more ‘classes’…(‘classes’ that are saturated in eastern mysticism).
Just for quick reference, Isaiah 5:20 – “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;” – Again, it’s imperative that our definition of ‘good’ is the same as God’s. Just like a child would think it was ‘good’ to have ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner – we as adults know it is not (I know, bad example?
). In the same way, we may think it’s good to heal the sick, etc., but God says it is lawlessness….(because they ‘learned how to’ in eastern mysticism/doctrines of devils).
Craig, I guess that’s what I get for staying up so late last nite (thinking you had been at a Branham meeting…) and eating too much ice cream! as my kids say “my bad”
Tim,
LOL
No problem. Sometimes I do put a LOT of information out which I’m sure can be confusing if one skims the material.
FYI – Sorry to abandon the discussion…just recovering from a raging migraine. I’ll be back tomorrow to add my 2 cents worth. Thanks for replies. Skimmed some posts but not much can sink in.
Ugh, sorry about your migraine. I pray you’ll be well soon.
Thanks Craig. Much better today. I can tell you that the last thing I wanted to think about for the last two days were the ins and outs of the occult and the New Age.
Tim, I have bookmarked the article…thanks and I will read later. Looks like a long one.
Arwen4CJ – What you will not get from me is a finely-articulated point-form apologetic masterpiece. Although I would like to be able to write that way, it’s just not there. I do appreciate those that can and of course, Craig is one of “those” kind.
Where to start…there is so much.
Regarding the words that are appearing in church advertisements and billboards, and conference ads, etc; true they could be just everyday words but many times they are accompanied by symbols that are secret occult symbols. You might see a man pouring out a pitcher which is a New Age symbol for the Age of Aquarius or some waves. Or you might see the word Fusion together with a triple helix. Once you know the meaning behind some of the symbols, it causes you to do a double take.
Satan’s so called dark secrets of fusing the heavenly with the earthly, as above so below, mixing the seed of the angels with the seed of men and/or transforming the old DNA with a strand of new and so making us into immortals and trans humans is becoming the accepted hope for mankind among the New World Order. Rather than the hope of the ages which is Christ Jesus, the world is opting for this alternative, evil plan of Satan’s.
You didn’t see the word goddess in church ads. The whole “goddess” idolatry, also known as Mystery Babylon, aka Isis, aka Diana, aka Ashthoreth, aka Ishtar, aka Queen of Heaven, Mary the Mother of God, aka Sophia, aka Shekinah, aka the Divine Feminine in the Godhead, aka the Holy Spirit aka the Annointing is being swallowed by the disciples of the New World Order as well as the Apostles of the New Reformation.
For the sake of space…here’s just one example of the goddess showing up. I saw her in an advertisement for a Women’s Conference called Sophia Logos 2011 put on by Crossroads, Women of Worth WOW (website). As it turns out they have ties to the Pensacola Revival.
The goddess, Shekinah…well….you have seen her showing up in many churches. According to some ministers, it is the ritual of a husband and wife coming together that will birth the Shekinah glory of God. This sexual obsession in the pulpits and billboards…where is it going? How quickly will we get to the place where the pagan sexual rituals performed by temple prostitutes to signify and seal one’s initiation into godhood will be accepted? The idea has already taken root by leaps.
Another place where Shekinah shows up…is where God, the divine male, joins together with the divine spark within man causing the “Shekinah” (the divine feminine) glory to be released, the Anointing to be “released”, “birthed”, “born again”…where have we heard that before?
There is a flood of New Age, occult spiritual wickedness spreading through the assemblies of Christendom. Where once there was purity of faith, there is now this mixture with paganism. The goddess doctrine is nothing new to Catholicism. Those who don’t check out their doctrines with the Bible, are just going with the flow straight back into the arms of Catholic and pagan idolatry.
What can we do except blow the trumpet, sound the alarm…
Tim: Being raised Pentecostal, I witnessed the same thing with my dad’s spiritual heros of the faith being exposed. Particularly PTL with Jim Bakker. Wow, my parents sacrificed what little they had to go to their meetings and support them and they got their paraphernalia ….sort of like teenage groupies. My mom flew to William Branham’s meeting down in Chicago in desperation to get a healing for her special needs (Downs Syndrome) baby. She was disappointed, of course, but continued to follow these occult personalities…Kathryn Khulman, Benny the HInn, Oral Roberts, Norman Vincent Peale and Morris Cerello…her favourites. The poor working class reaching out to the “stars”.
Well, I haven’t yet sorted out my Pentecostal roots. My charismania evolved deeply into Word of Faith Doctrine and then NAR and shortly after that involvement, through a chain of events, my ill-fated Pentecostal paradigm went up in flames. (A blessing in disguise). My whole life was turned upside down and the only thing left standing for me was the Word. I can’t adequately describe the situation.
But since that day, I find it easier to listen to people who have their feet firmly planted in the soil of common sense and who factually and logically live by the light of the Word. The cult of the personality is dead for me, as is any attempt to get close to God through efforts of fasting, long prayers, vain repetitions or trying to find God through mystical practices.
My salvation was to get Word oriented. Those that are still in the movement, (old friends) are still as mystical and deceived as ever. No….., MORE mystical and MORE deceived than ever. I can’t reach them because they are not in the Word for themselves. Being raised with Bible stories and Pentecostal dogma, they are a law unto themselves, a society of elite worshippers.
As an ex Pentecostal, I believe every born again Christian has the gifts of the Spirit fully in operation as the need arises and as Christ directs. I don’t believe you have to speak in tongues to prove you have the infilling of the Spirit. There is nothing to be done to increase our spirituality but to seek him with all our hearts and be hearers and doers of the Word. The bondage is gone, simplicity reigns.
As the article by Dager relates, it is sad to see how Pentecostalism and the Latter Rain movement have transformed themselves into something so dark and disturbing. But considering the occult roots….could we expect anything different? It’s been a journey of evolution…and I’m in the generation that has seen it evolve. Will it now assimilate with all other religions into Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots and Abominations?…Come out of her my people, so that you will not share in her sins.
Carolyn,
I have greatly appreciated your comments here and would like to correspond via email if you are willing. I will post my email if you agree.
YesNa,
You don’t have to post your email. If Carolyn agrees I’ll send your email to her. This will keep it off the net and protect your privacy.
Thank you so much Craig!
You’re quite welcome!
Absolutely, send me the email address, Craig…..and thanks!
Mary,
It would appear that you are correct — most of them do not believe they can be deceived. Some do acknowledge that they can be, but these are people that haven’t fully given themselves over to deception. (The associate pastor of the church I left even preached on not being deceived. She said that every one of us can be deceived — but that was before the new pastor came. I think that she still believes that she and every other Christian can be deceived, but she doesn’t have as big a role in the church anymore. Even the senior pastor of the church I left sort of talked about not being deceived, but I don’t think he actually meant it as applying to what he himself was teaching. Rather, he was talking about not getting caught up in worldly stuff that occurred outside the church.)
Hmmm….In the two churches that I’ve had experience with, I would say that they still care about sin, repentance, and salvation. However, these things are very much downplayed– the senior pastors don’t talk much about these issues. The kingdom and sings and wonders took precedence over the gospel. The emphasis was completely flipped from the way it should have been. I heard the pastor of the church in my hometown emphasize the essentials of the faith at a baptism ceremony, which was good to hear. The problem is that he hardly ever actually preaches on the topic.
The pastor at the church in my graduate school town gave a twisted sermon on Easter several years ago. I remember him saying that it saddens him that many Christians do not live like Christ has been resurrected. He explained that many Christians don’t heal people, live in signs and wonders, etc. To him, it almost seemed like that was why Jesus rose from the dead — so that we could do signs and wonders.
I never heard him explain the gospel even once. The previous pastor explained the gospel in almost every sermon, and was very solid in what he taught. Why can’t there be more pastors like that previous pastor?
Wow — I guess that does make sense for them to use the transfiguration as seemingly giving a biblical okay to converse with the dead. But it’s hard for me to imagine that they are using the transfiguration passage to justify the idea of absorbing or get recharged with anointings from grave. The only possible way they can explain it using that passage is if they really are twisting the meaning and the events of that passage. They are ignoring the fact that God condemned the practice of talking to the dead, and Jesus was not instituting a sacrament when He was talking to Moses and Elijah. He did not instruct them to communicate with any dead person.
Yes, I’ve come to realize that for hyper-charismatics spiritual means that it is from God, and that it is good. Yeah…they do seem to think they are equal with Jesus, and that they can do everything that He did.
Yep — learned the ‘eat the meat and spit out the bones’ quote from the senior pastor of the church I left
And you’re exactly right — neither he nor the elders of the church defined what bones were, nor what to do with it. They never brought up the subject of spoiled meat or bones that had hardly any meat on them. They never drew any sort of line of how much false teaching should a person be subjected. I agree — they seem to be calling good bad and bad good. There is not much reverence for God in their worship services. In fact, they seem to view reverence for God as someone having a ‘religious spirit.’
I do think that there is pride involved in these churches, but I also am convinced that at least some of these people do honestly want to take classes like the ones you listed because they geuinely want to be used by God. I don’t know whether or not they were born again, only God does. I do think that there is a huge problem with not talking about the gospel, and if all the information they know about the Christian faith and Jesus comes from these churches, then they would not be born again. However, if some of these people were exposed to the real gospel in another setting, then some of them could be saved.
Yes, I’ve come to realize that for hyper-charismatics spiritual means that it is from God, and that it is good.
This goes back to Gnostic Dualism from the 1st/2nd century – the false dichotomy that all spiritual is good, all material is evil. Bill Johnson suggests this in the various quotes used in this article:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/learning-etymology-with-bill-johnson-a-new-age-repentance/
Carolyn,
I’m not suggesting that everyone here write a finely-articulated point-form apologetic masterpiece. What I meant by ‘bad apologetics that I have seen on other sites’ is the sort of site that says, “X uses the word Y, and the pagan group Z uses the word Y. That must mean that X belongs to pagan group Z.”
All I was trying to suggest is that we try to be fair, and that we don’t jump to conclusions without justification of it. I’m simply asking that we take context into consideration so that we can fairly evaluate things. This has nothing to do with whether or not someone is able to write a fairly-articulated point-form apologetic masterpiece.
For example, let’s take the subject of pagan dancing at some hyper-charismatic meetings. I have heard from multiple sources that the NAR leaders have this kind of dancing at their meetings, and that they encourage it. They state that that kind of dancing was originally from God, and now they are taking it back from Satan. They say they know it is pagan or occult, but it’s okay because it was originally from God. Okay — that is a clear example of them practicing something that is occult. Based on that, we can say that they are engaging in occultic practice. They know it is occult, and they condone it. Taken in context, they are meaning to do pagan dancing.
So, what we need is evidence that they are using a word or practice in an occult/New Age/pagan way. That, or we need to show that a spiritual practice that they do (in the context of their worship) is identical to an occult spiritual practice (in its context.) This doesn’t need to be elaborate — just a sentence about each and how they connect. I believe that everyone who reads this blog is capable of writing such sentences.
The hyper-charismatic folks give us plenty of examples of their occult practices without us needing to connect the two, apart from the context.
So…what I’m asking is this:
If someone says, “The hyper-charismatics are using the term paradigm shift, so they must be New Age,” then I’m asking them to take it a bit further. I would want them to provide an example of how the hyper-charismatics are using the term (in context) and then how New Agers use the term. That can be done in a few sentences. That way the people that are trapped in these teachings won’t just write us off as a bunch of conspiracy theorists or whatever, and they would be more likely to take us seriously.
Of course no one has to do what I suggest, but I think it would be a better discussion if we did.
Thank you for taking the time to provide more of a background to your case. Still, though, it seems to me that there is a weak case for saying that hyper-charismatics are all part of some New Age conspiracy. Sure, it is possible. However, I’m concerned that innocent Christian groups might be misjudged as having some secret New Age symbol just because they have a wave graphic or the word Fusion or some other word or picture on an ad.
Unless the people responsible for making these advertisements actually comes out and says, “Hey, I know that we are using New Age symbols, but we’re really just taking back what Satan stole,” as they do with their pagan dancing and other occult practices, I’m not going to buy that there are secret symbols they are using. If it is an exact replica of a New Age picture, or symbol, then that would be another thing. This is one area that I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt on because to do otherwise would seem unfair. This in no way means justifies their doctrine. Again, they themselves can show that they are practicing and accepting occult things just by their own statements.
Yes, Satan is at war with God and with humanity. Yes, he does have his own plans, and yes, he seeks to pull people away from God and get them to worship him instead. Yes, Satan is at work in New Age spirituality. However, he is also at work in paganism, wicca, Eastern religions, atheism, etc. Yes, Satan wants to take the attention off of Jesus Christ. Yes, there is doctrine from demons all over the place.
As for the goddess list, I’m not sure how you are meaning this…but you included the Holy Spirit in the list? Please explain what you meant so that I know how to respond. Thank you.
As for Shekinah….I don’t know Hebrew, but isn’t that a Hebrew word that is in the Old Testament? I am aware that those in the NAR crowd use the term in a weird kind of way, but I think the term itself might actually just be a word in Hebrew that doesn’t carry any weird connotations with it.
I thought that Sophia was a gnostic concept having to do with wisdom or some weird Christ consciousness stuff by modern occultists. I haven’t heard hyper-charismatics make a reference to this, but I believe it would be in keeping with their teachings. Please explain how they use this concept. I don’t know Greek, though. Maybe sophia means wisdom, without any gnostic or occult connotation.
As for Mary the Mother of God, I’m not Catholic, but I think it is supposed to be a term that reflects back on Jesus. I think it’s acknowledging Jesus’ deity, and is simply a statement that Mary was His earthly mother. Yes, I know that they revere Mary, and their reverence of her certainly goes beyond Scripture, but I don’t think that they are meaning to call Mary a goddess here.
Ashtoreth is certainly a pagan goddess that God forbad Israel to worship — and it may very well be that Isis, Diana, and Ishtar are all variations of this false goddess. I haven’t heard hyper-charismatics make a reference to any of these in a positive way.
The idea of Queen of Heaven certainly goes beyond Scripture, and does sort of make Mary into a sort of goddess. However, I don’t think that most hyper-charismatics use this term.
New World Order? Please explain what you mean by this. I have heard some people talk about it, but I want to make sure that what I’m thinking is what you actually believe about it.
Hmmm….without knowing anything about the conference or without knowing what they meant by the term “Sophia” in the conference title, I really think it is hard to say that they are actually meaning the gnostic/occult concept of sophia. Sorry, I just can’t make the leap without real evidence.
Again, I thought that shekinah might be just a Hebrew word that is in the Old Testament. I don’t know about pastors using it in connection with sex, but it is possible. Still, that would take a big leap to then suggest that these pastors would want to institute pagan sexual rites. Since I don’t know of this actually happening in any hyper-charismatic church, it is unfair to use this argument against them.
“Born again” is a biblical concept that Jesus used in John chapter 3. I don’t know if some hyper-charismatics have twisted the concept. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if they did. However, we can’t say that because a church uses the phrase “born again” that it is a New Age church. If we did that, then we’d be labeling most orthodox churches as being New Age!
I agree that the obsession about “releasing” things and “birthing” that is in many hyper-charismatic churches is disturbing and strange. However, I think that saying that it is connected to some gnostic or pagan group’s twisted concept of a male God and a female goddess mating is going too far with it. I don’t think that Dutch Sheets and the others who talk about birthing are meaning to connect it with the gnostic concept. It certainly is unbiblical, but let’s not take a gnostic concept to it unless the NAR crowd says that’s where they got the concept from.
Yes, there is a flood of New Age and occult spiritual wickedness spreading. However, I think that there has been mixture for a long time. (Why do so many people knock on wood superstitiously? Many Christians do this without even thinking about it. Many Christians read their horoscopes or trust in superstitions.)
Although I do not agree with all of Roman Catholic doctrine, I have several friends who are Catholic. I don’t agree with all of their practices, but I’m not convinced that the ones I know are actually idolaters. I asked them what they think about Mary and why they pray to her. I asked them about their saints. Although I don’t agree with the practice, I do believe them when they tell me that they do not worship Mary, nor do they see her on the same level as God. In their mind, they are praying to these individuals in order to ask them to pray for them, like how we ask people we know to pray about a situation. I think the practice goes beyond Scripture, and I think it is hindering their relationship with God, but I believe them when they say they worship God. They also told me that they believe they can pray directly to God, and they do so as well. I can’t speak for all Catholics (some probably do worship Mary), but I do trust my friends.
“Born again” is a biblical concept that Jesus used in John chapter 3. I don’t know if some hyper-charismatics have twisted the concept. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn if they did.
Bill Johnson does. To him one can literally ‘see’ the Kingdom in the here and now after being ‘born again’:
Through Christ, God has made it possible for every person to see the kingdom. Our conversion experience gives us access to that realm, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’ (John 3:3, NKJV). However, it is our responsibility to develop this capacity, to train our senses to perceive God through renewing our minds and feeding the affections of our hearts on the [ED: esoteric] truth. [Face to Face with God; p 89-90]
Being ‘born again’ is the first step towards literally ‘seeing’ the Kingdom right now. Then, through ‘renewing our minds’ / ‘repentenance we progressively ‘see’ more of the Kingdom:
Most Christians repent enough to get forgiven, but not enough to see the Kingdom.
“Progressive repentance” I call it. I’ll explain the esoteric meaning of this in a subsequent article.
Arwen4CJ – wow. That was a long one. And after all that, I probably won’t change the way I write as I’m not convinced I should. Most, if not all of what I say is based in fact and can be backed up at a moment’s notice. It’s extra wording that is dispensible since so much of it what goes on is common knowledge or can be easily referenced by some research on the reader’s part.
In this case I will do the research for you. There is no shortage of information on this goddess. Here is an excerpt from what Etta Jackson has to say in her piece on The Goddess, the Whore, The Shekinah.
“Who is she? She is the symbolic representation of the Creative Force of the Universe— the Third Aspect of the Divine Trinity— The Holy Spirit— The Comforter —the Dark Mother—the Great Ocean, and also known as the Chief Feminine Elder of the Temple. She is the Pentecost, the Shekinah, and the Holy Ghost
She will assist humanity in removing the guilt and shame of life, which unfortunately, has been placed at the feet of women! This Dark Mother, the Feminine Principle, is the Whore, as well as the Virgin; she is the daughter and the mother; she is the midwife and the one who gives birth. She is the barren sister. She is the mother of your father and the daughter of your brother. She is the queen upon her throne and the beggar woman on her stool. She is in every woman, and she gave birth to every Man. She is the Feminine Power and Creator behind every created thing… she is indeed the Shekinah!!!”
Here is another link to enlighten you as to who Shekinah is.
http://www.crystalinks.com/shekinah.html
By the way Shekinah is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. In the Kabbalah, yes.
Just google Shekinah if you want more information.
With regards to Mary Worship, let a former Catholic nun give you her perspective on the topic at hand.. This is very interesting. Some North Americans may not think they are worshipping Mary but…well, I’ll let you read it for yourself.
BTW I haven’t made any specific references to Dutch Sheets and his birthing language. You are making me say something I didn’t say. I said there is an obsession in the pulpits and signage that is connecting sex to something spiritual. And if you have your ears and eyes open their is plenty of proof that it is going in a direction of cultic and occultic weirdness. I said how long will it be before we come full circle back to the temple prostitutes.
In reality, we all think in different ways, we learn in different ways and we put our ideas forth differently and there are times and seasons when your interest is peaked in one area or another. I put my thoughts out there a bit creatively. Generally, I have already done the homework. I compare what’s happening in the world and in the church to the Biblical perspective. And the rest is up to the reader. If something strikes their interest or strikes a chord or sounds an alarm bell…they can easily find out if I am telling the truth. If its going right over their head and they don’t see the point, then I rest my case.
All is well. Good talk. We should do it again sometime. I appreciate the effort you put into your rebuttal/debate. There’s still room for discussion. Maybe I’ll revisit it when I’m less tired. Till the morning…God Bless!
Carolyn,
Thank you for your comment. Providing links definitely helps, so thank you for that as well.
Hmmm…maybe I’m going to have to ask you direct questions in order to get the information that I need from you for more discussion. That probably would help both of us, as I can ask you questions to clarify certain points, and you will be able to respond without really changing your style
My next question to you is do you believe in the Trinity (including the Holy Spirit)?
The reason I’m asking the question is that I’m trying to determine whether or not you are saying that the Holy Spirit is an occult concept, or if you are saying that some churches have interpreted the Holy Spirit in an occult way. There is a huge difference, and I need to know from which position you are speaking from.
After you have answered this, we can discuss the website and the concepts that you have brought up.
I am aware that certain theologically liberal churches and theologians have begun referring to the Holy Spirit as a ‘she.’ I’m not sure about hyper-charismatic churches — never seen the subject breached in anything that I’ve read of them. It’s possible. More on that topic once you’ve answered the above questions for me.
Do you have a link to a page about the former Catholic nun talking about Mary worship?
In regard to Dutch Sheets, I apologize for any misunderstanding. That was my own reference — I wasn’t trying to suggest that you said anything about him. I brought him up because I know that he teaches on birthing. It was his work that the senior pastor of the church I left referenced when he gave his sermon on birthing. Dutch Sheets isn’t the only one who speaks on the topic. When you brought up birthing, I made the assumption that you were referring to that type of birthing. Maybe I was wrong about that, and if so, then please clarify what you meant.
Arwen, I know a great site for info on Mary worship ,( http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-radio) click on ” tube” at the top of the page and there should be a series of four interviews with Mike Gendron at the top of the list . Seriously all four are incredible I was amazed at how far the vatican has gone with their “revealations”. also, when I started my personal research on NAR and assoc. I found Chuck Pierce to be probly the most engaged in new age,kabbalah etc.and he is the second in command of all the NAR apostles (!!!) right next to Dutch Sheets…(ie. one of the teachers at his school of ministry (Joanne McFatter) stated that she had a conversation with trees ! (she may have removed it from her site by now but I made a copy). We’re told to avoid even the appearance of evil not see how close we can get with out getting burned, these guys are constantly inviting the young of the flock to play with fire…strange fire.
Arwen4CJ Heres the link:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm
Yes I believe in the Trinity…I feel a little like I am on trial here rather than the topic at hand….
My reference to the Holy Spirit being part of the “also known as” the Feminine side of God (which of course there is no such thing) But many churches are teaching that and I don’t know if they are hyper charismatic or not. Are we limiting our conversation to hyper charismatics?
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
This is who I am talking about when I talk about the feminine deity, Babylon who has changed names throughout history but remains the same Luciferic doctrine. If I’m losing you, you will have to do some historical research and then come back with specific questions. As it is you are nit picking without any evidence that I’m wrong.
Concerning calling Mary, Mother of God. It’s not what you think the Catholics mean by calling Mary Mother of God. Its the pagan cult that has filtered through history…the pagan feminine deity. Read up on it. Yours or my opinion is not what matters to God. It’s certain blasphemy.
Jeremiah 44:19
And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
The Feminine Goddess, Deity, whatever you want to call her….the Bible calls her The Queen of Heaven and is specific about about the word worship.They were worshipping her. The whole chapter of Jeremiah 44 goes into detail. And you can find her in Jeremiah 7 as well.
You have raised questions about what I have said but you haven’t come back with any proof that what I said was false. You are sowing seeds of doubt but without concrete challenges to my comments. Once you have researched for yourself what is going on in the churches and not just hyper charismatic (why pick on them only) and have compared the words, phrases, definitions, symbols and some of the history behind them to what is going on in this generation that we live in, we will talk again. Your arguments need a little more than “maybe this or that” or “my friends say”. or “I thought that… Sophia was some gnostic concept”.
The New World Order? Google it. I’ve been reading and studying it for years. Just assumed everyone knew what it was.
That’s all she wrote….for now.
Carolyn,
I just did a quick google search on Etta Jackson, and I definitely will have something to say in regard to the information that you obtained from her. I’ll leave that, though, until you’ve answered my above question.
Once you have answered it, I will give you my take on things.
I think I might understand where you are coming from now, but I need to check to be sure. That’s why I am asking you specific questions.
FYI – My dear, I used Etta Jackson, not as a Christian example of the knowledge of the Divine goddess but as a worldly example of the ideology that is out there among the confused worldlings.
Arwen4CJ – I am not your enemy. I don’t think you can listen to what I say and misconstrue my intentions and my beliefs as a true born again believer, unless…
Let’s stick to attacking the message, not the messenger. agreed? I am perplexed as to why you are deflecting the conversation from Mystery Babylon to casting doubt and making innuendos about my Christian beliefs.
Ask me nice and I’ll tell you again. I do believe most definitely in the Trinity.
Carolyn,
Okay — thank you for answering my question. What you wrote was what I was looking for. Sorry if it appeared like I was putting you on trial — it was just that I wasn’t clear what direction you were coming from, and I needed to make sure that I understood you.
All right, good — so you were saying that some churches and people have turned the Holy Spirit into an occult goddess concept.
I can agree with you on that. As I said before, I know that some of the liberal Christians have done this because they are trying to avoid conceptualizing God as all male. Those who hold to occult spirituality also do this, as the Etta Jackson lady you referenced does. This is going on, yes.
There are some churches that teach this false doctrine, but I don’t think that the majority of churches teach this. It is only the extremely theologically liberal ones who do.
I have been to the jesus-is-savior.com website before. I have found it to be extreme on some issues, and wrong on some things. Some things are good, but I’ve found that I need to be really discerning in looking at information from this source.
Thank you for the link, though. Let me just go read the article now….
Okay — I have read it. Assuming the information on the website is legitimate, it does seem that the Catholic church officially encourages the worship of Mary. This doesn’t mean that all Roman Catholics would agree with the official teaching.
It is true that there is apostasy outside of the hyper-charismatic churches — definitely. I know of pastors and leaders of churches who deny the essentials of the Christian faith. Yes, we need to keep in mind that there are churches like this out there. The theologically liberal Christians are not true Christians, and they are heretics and false teachers because they deny the essentials of our faith. However, Craig’s blog seems to deal primarily with the hyper-charismatic variety. I think we should mostly limit our discussion to hyper-charismatic stuff, so as not to get too far off topic.
Until I figured out that you were speaking of the universal church rather than just the charismatic ones, I thought you were only talking about the hyper-charismatics, since that’s what I understood everyone who was commenting to be discussing.
Again, sorry if it seemed like I was nit picking. I just required a bit of clarity from you so that I could know which direction you were approaching these things from. You have clarified that for me in your most recent comment, so thank you. I didn’t want to misjudge you in regard to what you were saying.
I wasn’t trying offer proofs that you were wrong so much as I was trying to get clarity from you. I needed to know what your position really was. All I was trying to say before was that I thought that we should not be quick to label a group because of their use of a word.
Now that I know what your argument actually is, we can communicate better.
Here’s what I get when I look up Shekinah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah
“Shekinah (alternative transliterations Shekinah, Shechinah, Shekina, Shechina, Schechinah, שכינה) is the English spelling of a grammatically feminine Hebrew word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling divine presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem.”
In and of itself, the word seems to be just a word that means dwelling of God. I see nothing wrong with the concept itself.
However, I do acknowledge that just as with the Holy Spirit, some people have twisted the concept to make it a femine deity or aspect of God. This use is bad — and I can agree that anyone who is doing this is engaging in a dangerous, sinful practice.
Here is a Jewish online source that I found:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13537-shekinah
Although I only briefly skimmed this article, I don’t see them actually believing it is a goddess.
So, what I’m saying is that it is true that certain theologically liberal individuals might interpret the concept that way, and so would pagan/occult individuals. But not everyone else — only those who are goddess followers view the term this way, or those who have an occultic view of Judaism and Christianity.
Sophia does mean wisdom in Greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_%28wisdom%29
Although there is definitely an occult concept of Sophia that is like a goddess type thing, the concept of sophia isn’t in and of itself occult, since the NT writers, who were writing in Greek, used the word.
See the NT references on the wiki page.
As for the New World Order concept, since you didn’t tell me what your thinking was on it, I’ll have to assume that it’s the same thinking as what I’ve heard and seen on various websites. Most of what I’ve seen has been a bunch of conspiracy theories. I find the concept to be a bit far-fetched, so we probably should not discuss it any further.
I think we can agree, though, that as it gets closer and closer to Jesus’ return, that there is more and more apostasy in the universal church. This has shown up, and continues to show up in theologically liberal churches in the denial of essential doctrines, and in the acceptance of occult spirituality.
In the hyper-charismatic churches, there is still a denial of essential doctrines, but it looks different than in the liberal churches. The hyper-charismatic churches are also accepting occult spirituality, but again, how this happens and how it appears is different.
The theologically liberal leaders and the leaders of the hyper-charismatics do not appear to be working together — in fact, the leaders from these groups would probably not get along at all. However, I do think that demons are behind both group’s false teachings. People are being lead astray in both groups.
Can you agree with me on these things? If so, then I think we can call a truce
Carolyn,
You wrote:
“FYI – My dear, I used Etta Jackson, not as a Christian example of the knowledge of the Divine goddess but as a worldly example of the ideology that is out there among the confused worldlings.”
My response:
Thank you — I understand that now, but not at the time that I asked. Since messages have to be approved by Craig before they are actually posted here, there is a delay. I didn’t see your new message until after I made the post you responded to — I think our posts were approved (and thus appeared) at the same time.
You wrote:
“Arwen4CJ – I am not your enemy. I don’t think you can listen to what I say and misconstrue my intentions and my beliefs as a true born again believer, unless…
Let’s stick to attacking the message, not the messenger. agreed? I am perplexed as to why you are deflecting the conversation from Mystery Babylon to casting doubt and making innuendos about my Christian beliefs.
Ask me nice and I’ll tell you again. I do believe most definitely in the Trinity.”
My response:
Again, I apologize for misunderstandings. I questioned your belief in the Trinity not because I wanted to attack your faith or you as a person, but because I was looking for clarity as to what you meant when you said that the Holy Spirit was connected to the goddess concept.
I have encountered individuals online who have tried to convince me that the entire Christian church is pagan, and thus they call everyone who is in a church a pagan. I was trying to see if that was your position or not. I was not trying to question your intentions or beliefs or trying to suggest that you weren’t a true born again believer. All I was trying to do was figure out what your position actually was.
Again, I was seeking clarity of your position, not trying to cast doubt about your Christian faith or trying to make innuendos about your Christian beliefs. I am really sorry if it came off that way. This is one reason it can be hard to have online discussions with people — maybe the fault here is entirely mine. I may not be the best at explaining things or wording things well.
I wasn’t trying to deflect the conversation from Mystery Babylon, but rather I was trying to understand where you were coming from before we could discuss anything further.
Once more, I didn’t actually see that you answered my question until after both your message and the one you just responded to were posted.
Arwen4CJ,
I’m one of those of the opinion that there is a concerted effort to unite into a one world government with the UN as the focal point. It makes sense Biblically with Rev 13:16-17 in mind. For the sake of simplicity, I use New World Order (NWO) for the political aspect and New Age / New Spirituality for the spiritual. In reality, it’s all part of the same. I speak on this here:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/misplaced-trust-part-i/
With the latter portion of the 1st part and the beginning of the 2nd part touching on the political aspects:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/misplaced-trust-part-ii/
Rick Warren is immersed in both as a well-known ‘pastor’ who is also on the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR). He partnered with Tony Blair’s Faith Foundation (he’s on the board) which refers to Christianity, Judaism and Islam as the “Abrahamic” faiths – as if we all share the same basic heritage. Warren is currently embroiled in controversy surrounding his attempted bridging of Islam and Christianity, even though he denies this. He was one of the many signatories on a similar ecumenical bid back in 2007 as shown here:
http://www.yale.edu/divinity/news/071118_news_nytimes.pdf
Note that some Vineyard spokesmen are signatories as well.
Craig,
Yes, I think there will be a one world government someday. Yes, this is a biblical concept. This may or may not be with the U.N.
However, I don’t think of that as being the New World Order.
I guess what I think of when I see the term New World Order are things like this:
http://www.infowars.com/about-alex-jones/
Sorry, not trying to start a fight here.
I was thinking of all these videos on youtube that were posted by people who spoke about the New World Order. The concept, as presented in those videos, seemed far-fetched to me. It seemed like a conspiracy theory.
The concept of a one world government ruled by the Anti-Christ is biblical.
Alex Jones has what appears to be useful information and disinformation. One of the ploys of the enemy is to put seemingly like-minded individuals in place to confuse. Jones could well be one of them.
One other thing: the term conspiracy theory has sadly become a pejorative term when in actuality it’s merely descriptive. Conspiracy theories can be bogus, built upon erroneous info or info from a too broad brush, or a conspiracy theory can be backed up with valid data. They are just that – theories.
Craig, I’ve been hoping to bring Rick Warren and his P.E.A.C.E. plan into the equation ,you may already know that he was mentored by none other then (chief Apostle) Peter Wagner and Peter Drucker the managment guru at Fuller Theological Sem. There is an excellent article (series) on Warrens Peace Plan on Bob DeWaay’s web site (cicministries.org)- its found under Redifining Christianity – click on “radio series”. Warren and Wagner, Drucker and Blair are easily connected and the “pyramid” just grows from there. I cant think of anything I’ve read that sounds more like an AntiChrist system then Warrens Peace Plan. Bob Dewaay also does an excllent job exposing the Emergent Church movement(.again in his radio series).The common denominators in ALL these “movements” seems to be an extreme postmillenial view- dominion,reconstruction,age of aquarious,etc. and mixing (oh… just a” little” leaven) with New Age /New Spirituality. Yes… I do think there is a definite “conspiracy”, no way the numerous similairities are just coincidence…just no way.
What I find very interesting is that of the two “E”s in Warren’s acrostic not one of them is EVANGELISM.
Arwen4CJ,
One of the ploys of the enemy in general is redefining terms and concepts. One of the most diabolical is the reappropriation of Christian terms and using those esoterically. As Hannah Newman, a Jew who has exposed the anti-semitic nature (and other things) of Alice Bailey’s writings, so aptly termed this, it’s a “trojan horse of semantics”. “New World Order” is a term I’ve heard (and have video) of both Bush’s as well as many other heads of states. Now the term is primarily used pejoratively to denote whacked-out ‘conspiracy theorists’. NWO has now been replaced by global governance.
The term fundamentalism now is used to describe religious extremism. From my perspective, I’d call myself a fundamentalist Christian BUT I’d define as one who adheres to historic orthodox Christianity as determined from Scripture and the ecumenical creeds. I mean really now – the term fundamental merely means something that is basic. Fundamentals in math are addition, subtraction and times (X) tables. What’s wrong with using the term like that? Well, nothing of course, but liberals like to redefine terms/concepts to keep everyone guessing.
Tim,
Yes, and Tony Blair’s Faith Foundation has a plan remarkably like Warren’s. It openly states its goal is to further the UN Millenium Development Goals which are decidedly un- or anti-christian. Just like the Agenda 21 being pushed by the UN. Or the Alliance of Civilisations (AoC).
I don’t want to get this discussion too far away from the subject of this post. These are valid discussions which should be best posted in the Misplaced Trust articles.
Now, going back to the subject at hand: I’m busily preparing part II of the “BJ, A New Age Christ” article. It should prove to be an eye-opener.
Craig,
You’re right about the term conspiracy theory meaning several different things, and that it can be used in various ways.
I also understand what you’re saying about the redefinition of terms. I agree that fundamentalism has been redefined so that it now has a negative connotation. The same thing is now happening with the term evangelical. It’s getting a really negative connotation now.
I don’t know what any group of people might be planning, and it’s really hard to sort through some of the information that is available. Some of it is just made up, while some of it is probably true. I don’t know who is planning what. I do know that eventually there will be some sort of peace plan that the world will swallow, and it will be the Anti-Christ’s government. I don’t know exactly how that will play out. I’m not going to say any more on the topic.
I am sorry to have steered us so far off topic.
I’m just going to call a truce on all of this.
Arwen4CJ/all,
No harm done at all. I was only suggesting to all on here – no one in particular – that the topic of NWO would be better served on another thread. And, I don’t mind talking about Rick Warren – just that we do this on the other thread noted above.
The written word is an imperfect medium as it’s difficult to convey tone. For example, I try my best to write in a tone devoid of any emotion although that doesn’t always come through. So, it’s natural that written exchanges may be miscontrued by the parties.
I don’t necessarily disagree with what you wrote re: NWO; I was merely trying to explain that there are some who are doing a good job in trying to sort out the global governance thing and others who do it quite poorly and that there is disinformation put forth for a purpose.
Your contributions on here are welcomed as are everyone’s. I think the conversation with Carolyn was merely one of a misunderstanding of each other’s position. It’s one of the problems inherent in the limitations of written exchanges when they are not always in real time due to the delay of releasing comments.
Craig,
Understood
Thank you.
And I agree that NWO stuff would be better served on a different thread. You are also right that there are some who are doing a better job than others in trying to sort out the global governance thing, and other sources that do not. I don’t really have any first hand knowledge in this area, so I’m uncomfortable really delving into the topic. I’ve mostly seen bad examples of the topic explored, but there are sites and videos that have made me think. If I knew someone in government that was a Christian, and that I knew I could trust, I would ask them about this issue to see what they had to say.
I agree that the conversation with Carolyn was one of misunderstanding each other’s positions, and that written exchanges are prone to misunderstandings sometimes.
Part II of the “Bill Johnson’s Christology: A New Age Christ?” is now posted:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-christ-part-ii/
Pingback: Bill Johnson’s Christology: A New Age Christ?, part IV (Conclusion) « CrossWise
I disagree with this article. I think scripture makes it clear that we should be like Jesus. Apart from the meaning of terms (such as defining Christ, Anointing, extra Anointing, is intellect an antiChrist) terminology isn’t important, it’s what you mean. I think we are supposed to be like Christ. So that’s the goal. I’m not looking for an “anointing” or to be recognized as an “apostle”, I’m just going to give my all in being like Christ, and God will give me an anointing if he wants, if he doesn’t it doesn’t matter. Like the apostle Paul says, “We make it our goal to please Him.”
Omar,
Just so I’m clear: Do you disagree with the analysis within the article; or, do you disagree with what Johnson is stating re: Christ as anointing and antichrist as anti-anointing?
2 Tim 4:8
“8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
Bill Johnson loves the appearing of the Lord. So do I. What about you?
Yessy,
Are you actually going to engage in the conversation; or, do you just like to say your piece while mostly ignoring others. Frankly, that’s rude. Any further comment that goes off the topic into another area will just be deleted.
Once again, you take Scripture out of context, this time 2 Timothy 4:8. Did Bill Johnson, or another one of your favorite teachers, apply this verse in the manner you are doing? Take a look at other translations:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20tim%204:8&version=NKJV;NASB;CEB
This verse is speaking of when we see Him in the future. However, Eastern (and Western) mystics love to “soak in His presence” aka practice Transcendental Meditation (TM), contemplative prayer, etc. However, this is not an orthodox Biblical practice. Did you know that in Transcendental Meditation, one communes with the ‘god within’ in order to eventually become “one” with this ‘god’ which is actually communing with demons? Do you know that the Western practice of “soaking” and contemplative prayer is essentially the same thing? Think about it: this particular practice is seen as the way to increase one’s knowledge of God (just like Gnosticism) which exactly parallels the TM in the East. Of course, if you were actually reading the material here instead of making knee-jerk reactions to defend your ‘guru’ Bill Johnson, you might actually start to see this sort of thing.
Here’s the bottom line: either I’m wrong or you are. What if I’m right? Is there any sort of possibility that I’m actually right on this? What would be the harm in you reading the material here, comparing the Bill Johnson quotes I use to his own material (to see if I’ve taken him out of context), comparing what I’m writing to Scripture (by looking at more than one translation AND putting in full context)?
Frankly, the research which goes into these articles takes a LOT of time and effort. That’s not to mention the actual writing of the material. I don’t get one dime to do any of this (yet just imagine how much money Bill Johnson receives for his books and other materials, his conference appearances, etc.). So, why do I do this? My love for people, to warn against the very real and present dangers of these teachings. Very lives are in the balance! It would be much easier if I just posted the articles and deleted any dissenting voice while allowing those who agree with my position. I could get much more done without responding here.
You want to ‘commune with God’? Get in His Word, pray to Him giving praise and thanksgiving and, yes, even ask (not demand or command) for things.
“Frankly, the research which goes into these articles takes a LOT of time and effort. That’s not to mention the actual writing of the material.”
Craig, if you allow it, I would also add that it takes a mighty gift of discernment and understanding from the Holy Spirit of God. I am very humbled when I come on your sight and see the degree of care and research you give to this work. As it is me saying this about you and not you saying it about yourself, I hope you allow it.
In Romans 12, Paul gives a list of “gifts” of the Holy Spirit, a list that many charismatics do great violence to in their hunger to surround themselves with “those who hunger after the works of God”:
“We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him to it cheerfully.” (Romans 12:6-8)
The person who was trying to get me to participate in the Healing Room kept bringing books and dvds and cds to me from all sorts of “teachers”. She would call me to see if I had read or watched or listened to them. I actually tried to do this, but every time I would begin something would seem “off”; and I would put the material away and get back in my Bible. This is also a gift of the Holy Spirit; His wise counsel in all things, and His gentle correction when we are in error. Anyway, one day she called me and sounded a bit frustrated with my lack of progress. I responded that I was happily sticking with God’s Word and learning about healing there. She stated that “you can’t learn about healing in the Bible”. That is absolutely chilling.
She now carries several titles behind her name and has a high position in the organization. It suits their purpose, however; you need people pushing your books, dvds, and cds if you are going to make any money. You don’t make money running a healing room, although you do need to pay an annual fee–if this hasn’t changed–to the organization. They also suggest that you purchase their books and materials, which they gladly sell to you at a discount, to sell in your healing room to help fund it. Even if you don’t sell a book, they have profited.
Yessy, you stand on such perilous ground.
“For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” (2 Tim 4:6-8)
I like the Amplified version of verse 8:
[As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor's] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day–and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).
If you are busy admiring the crown on your head, you have no time to wash your robes:
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (Rev 22:12-16)
At the end, when the Righteous Judge does appear in truth (an event that will be seen by all on the earth…as lightning that comes from the East is visible even in the West); you will not be able to use Bill Johnson as a scapegoat. You will stand or fall based solely on your own love for God’s Word (his Son in the flesh) and His place in your heart.
Yessy,
Did you read any of the comments in the other thread, in response to what you wrote about the Anti-Christ? I think that this particular thread is a better place to discuss this further.
What do you think of early gnosticism as being a backdrop to what John was confronting in 1 John?
I will quote part of my previous posts in this thread:
“Let’s look at a study Bible’s introduction of 1 John.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-john/
This intro is similar to the intros that I find in all intros that I’ve seen.
Let me highlight a few of the points made in this intro:
“Date
The letter is difficult to date with precision, but factors such as (1) evidence from early Christian writers (Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria), (2) the early form of Gnosticism reflected in the denunciations of the letter and (3) indications of the advanced age of John suggest the end of the first century. Since the author of 1 John seems to build on concepts and themes found in the fourth Gospel (1Jn 2:7-11), it is reasonable to date the letter somewhere between a.d. 85 and 95, after the writing of the Gospel, which may have been written c. 85 (see Introduction to John: Date).
Gnosticism
One of the most dangerous heresies of the first two centuries of the church was Gnosticism. Its central teaching was that spirit is entirely good and matter is entirely evil. From this unbiblical dualism flowed five important errors:
The human body, which is matter, is therefore evil. It is to be contrasted with God, who is wholly spirit and therefore good.
Salvation is the escape from the body, achieved not by faith in Christ but by special knowledge (the Greek word for “knowledge” is gnosis, hence Gnosticism).
Christ’s true humanity was denied in two ways: (1) Some said that Christ only seemed to have a body, a view called Docetism, from the Greek dokeo (“to seem”), and (2) others said that the divine Christ joined the man Jesus at baptism and left him before he died, a view called Cerinthianism, after its most prominent spokesman, Cerinthus. This view is the background of much of 1 John (1:1; 2:22; 4:2-3 and notes.
Since the body was considered evil, it was to be treated harshly. This ascetic form of Gnosticism is the background of part of the letter to the Colossians (Col 2:21,23 and notes.
Paradoxically, this dualism also led to licentiousness. The reasoning was that, since matter — and not the breaking of God’s law (1Jn 3:4) — was considered evil, breaking his law was of no moral consequence.
The Gnosticism addressed in the NT was an early form of the heresy, not the intricately developed system of the second and third centuries. In addition to that seen in Colossians and in John’s letters, acquaintance with early Gnosticism is reflected in 1,2 Timothy, Titus, and 2 Peter and perhaps 1 Corinthians.
Occasion and Purpose
John’s readers were confronted with an early form of Gnostic teaching of the Cerinthian variety (see Gnosticism above). This heresy was also libertine, throwing off all moral restraints.
Consequently, John wrote this letter with two basic purposes in mind: (1) to expose false teachers (2:26 and note) and (2) to give believers assurance of salvation (5:13 and note). In keeping with his intention to combat Gnostic teachers, John specifically struck at their total lack of morality (3:8-10); and by giving eyewitness testimony to the incarnation, he sought to confirm his readers’ belief in the incarnate Christ (1:3). Success in this would give the writer joy (1:4).”
Specifically, what do you think about this part:
In the intro I found on 1 John, it says this:
“and (2) others said that the divine Christ joined the man Jesus at baptism and left him before he died, a view called Cerinthianism, after its most prominent spokesman, Cerinthus.”
My thoughts —
The divine Christ joining the man Jesus at baptism seems to be the exact argument that Bill Johnson and others make when they claim that that was when Jesus became Christ!!!
It seems that some aspects of the Cerinthianism form of gnosticism have survived intact from their early gnostic days. It seems this same teaching is what most New Agers and New Thought adherents believe as well. Nothing shows the origin of this demonic teaching clearer.
Do you not see the connection that this same Cerinthianism form of gnosticism has been passed down through time, and it has become one of the central parts of Bill Johnson’s theology?
If you don’t understand Johnson’s theology to be compatible with Cerinthianism, then how do you explain Johnson’s many quotes about Jesus not being the Christ until after the baptism? Or the quotes about how important the “anointing” is, etc. Craig has list some of these quotes in the above article.
So, how do you respond?
Yessy,
It’s time to define terms again. I asked you in the other thread, and I’ll ask you again…….how do you define what the second coming is?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ will physically return? Or do you believe that Jesus spiritually returns in believers?
What do you think the appearing of the Lord is like? Is it an event that you believe already happened, is happening now, or will happen in the future?
The Lord said to him, “Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” (Exo 4:11)
Peter said to her, “How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. (Acts 5:9-11)
Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.” Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. (Acts 13:9-11)
Paul, in Acts 27 is stuck on a ship in the middle of a storm “for many days”. Does he command the storm to stop as Jesus did? No, he waits in faith for the deliverance that God has promised. Did God end the storm? No, He wrecked the ship, but spared the souls aboard, sending His angel to encourage Paul and inform him of the plan. How wonderous and unsearchable His ways!
There the LORD made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them. He said, “If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I WILL NOT BRING ON YOU ANY OF THE DISEASES I BROUGHT ON THE EGYPTIANS, for I am the LORD, who heals you. (Exo 15:26)
“I will heap calamities upon them and spend my arrows against them.
I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;
I will send against them the fangs of the wild beasts,
the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.
In the street the sword will make them childless;
in their homes terror will reign.
Young men and young women will perish, infants and gray-haired men.” (Duet 32: 23-25)
In the clip above (around minute 4:30 or so), Bill Johnson does great violence to the passage in Galatians dealing with a “different gospel”.
Bill Johnson, “If I, or even an angel comes to you and preaches a different gospel, you are to reject it……
….What gospel is it? It is the gospel of Jesus. The gospel of the Kingdom….(deep sigh)”
What did Paul actually say? (Galatians 1:1-9)
“Paul, an apostle–sent not from men not by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
Paul’s statement is a far cry from simply telling the Galatians to reject a different gospel; he eternally condemns the person who brings it, not once, but twice. What gospel is he referring to? The verse before it lays it out, doesn’t it? The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age; Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
Has anyone ever counted all the books, dvds, cds, and other miscellaneous things for sale on ibethel?
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The subtle serpent is let loose. The wounded dragon is angry. Lucifer has intensified his endtime deception, knowing that the end is near. We must arise as the endtime army of Jesus Christ and stand to defend the truth with our life and works. Apologetics and criticisms will not be enough. Witnessing and wrestling with the weapons of the word and the works of Jesus Christ is all we need. Jesus is coming sooooooon!
Ekene,
Could you kindly show me in Scripture where it’s indicated there shall be an “endtime army of Jesus Christ”, besides the one in Revelation 19:11-16?