By Whose Power Does Bill Johnson Perform Healings?
July 21, 2011 377 Comments
“What have I done? This guy thinks he hobbled in here…wait until he tries to walk out!”1
- Bill Johnson, 2009
Let me state from the outset that I’m not a cessationist. God still does perform the miraculous in this day and age. Frankly, I don’t see how anyone can take an honest look at 1st Corinthians 12-14 and deduce that somehow these gifts of the Spirit are not for today. However, having stated this, I must admit in having difficulty with continuationism given all the excesses I’ve seen/read about. I am in a sort of mediated position believing it’s the Spirit who gives to each one “just as He determines” [12:11; NIV 1984] on an individual and case by case basis.
God can heal through elders of a local church praying over and anointing with oil the afflicted individual [James 5:14-15]. He can heal through the fervent prayers of the saints. He can heal through praise. He can heal through the hand of the skilled (and, even the not-so-skilled) physician or surgeon.
But, does the enemy heal? There are purported accounts of healing in the Eastern religions. There are also claimed healings in Santeria and other religious traditions. There have long been accounts of healing in Christian Science, New Thought and Unity.2
Bill Johnson on Healing: The Long and the Short of It
Bill Johnson, of Bethel Church in Redding, CA, in his 2009 book Release the Power of Jesus recounts a few instances of healing regarding legs that were purportedly either too long or too short compared to the other. The first account involves a contractor who had broken his leg 25 years prior resulting in the injured leg healing and somehow remaining 1.5 inches longer than the other. The gentleman asked Johnson if he’d ever seen a leg shrink.3
Recalling a purported prior healing of a pastor who was injured in a snowmobile accident in which the clergyman had a similar problem, Johnson responded to the contractor in the affirmative (it’s not specified whether it was the formerly broken or the presumably uninjured leg of the pastor that was shrunk).4
Johnson explains his resultant thought process at the time just prior to the attempted healing of the contractor:
…Then I paused for a moment and a thought occurred to me, “Should I shrink the long leg or lengthen the shorter leg? Most people wouldn’t mind being a little bit taller.” I caught him (and myself) completely off guard when I said, “Right leg, grow in Jesus’ name.”
The right leg began to grow out slowly. Then all of a sudden it shot out past the other leg three or four inches and the guy screamed in pain! It was as though years of growing pains were hitting him all at once. On the outside I’m sure I looked very calm, but on the inside I was wondering, “What have I done! This guy thinks he hobbled in here…wait until he tries to walk out!” 5
Notice all the “I” phrases: “Should I shrink the long leg,” “when I said,” “What have I done!” Is Bill Johnson claiming this botched healing for himself? Perhaps Johnson really meant it was he himself being used as a vehicle through which God worked? Of course, Johnson did say “in Jesus’ name” – if that’s any indication.
There are a number of options I can think of regarding this ‘healing’:
1) It truly was the Holy Spirit working through Johnson
2) It was Johnson himself
3) It was the enemy working through Johnson
4) It was Johnson’s imagination
5) Johnson was stretching the truth, as it were
Personally, I have a hard time with #1 as I find it very difficult to believe that God would inflict pain, especially to the point an individual would scream out as such, in the process of divine healing. As to numbers 2 through 5, I’ll let the reader decide.
Continuing this account:
I began to search my heart to figure how to pray when I remembered studying the word shalom. It means “peace.”…soundness of mind, health, prosperity…I thought, “This situation has to be covered in that word.” So I prayed, “And now Lord, just let the shalom of Heaven, your peace, rest upon this man.” His right leg then shrank back to perfectly match the other one…6
So, after the contractor screams in pain because of the previously uninjured non-broken right leg’s sudden burst in length in response to Johnson’s initial attempt at healing, the leg subsequently responds to Johnson’s “shalom” prayer and shrinks back to match the man’s left leg. Was this second healing a true divine healing while the first attempt was not?
Bill Johnson recounts another leg length disparity healing which purportedly occurred six months after the contractor’s. In this case, a 27 year old woman with back problems told of how she had a metal rod put in the place of a cancerous bone which was removed when she was 15. The account does not specify whether it was the femur or the tibia/fibula. The rod was made such that the leg would be one inch longer than the other one on the assumption that the unaffected leg would grow to the size of the one with the metal rod. Unfortunately, the woman did not grow any taller.7 Johnson relates his methodology on this particular healing:
Because of my recent experience, for which God covered me, I took her leg and commanded the one with the metal rod to shrink. It yielded to the command…8
Note his words, “for which God covered me.” Is Johnson admitting that the initial botched healing of the contractor was done by himself rather than God? It would appear that way. Given that it apparently was not God involved in the initial attempt at healing the contractor, which of the remaining options – numbers 2 through 5 above – do you think applies? Or, is there yet another option I’ve just not considered?
1 Johnson, Bill. Release the Power of Jesus. 2009, Destiny Image “Speaking the Purposes of God for this Generation and the Generations to Come,” Shippensburg, PA; p 107. Emphasis added.
2 McConnell, D. R. A Different Gospel. 1988 (4th printing, 1991), Hendrickson, Peabody, MA; pp 30, 44-48
3 Johnson, pp 106-07
4 Johnson, pp 106-07
5 Johnson, p 107. Ellipse in original; bolding added.
6 Johnson, p 107. Bolding from italicized original.
7 Johnson, p 108
8 Johnson, p 108. Bolding from italicized original.
I should also add that when I was a kid my brothers and I had a ouija board and we even hosted seances (this was in the late ’60s / early ’70s) at the house. There was DEFINITELY spiritual presence which I did not always find uncomfortable or unpleasant. HOWEVER, I was NOT a Christian, either. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14-15)
Omar,
Since you concede doctrine is important (glad to hear that!), I think it important you read this particular post in which Bill Johnson defines and then re-defines both Christ and antichrist in his popular book When Heaven Invades Earth:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/the-christ-anointing-and-the-antichrist-spirit/
Omar says:
September 1, 2012 at 10:15 am
You referenced a quote by BJ on this thread. IMHO, Bill Johnson has misquoted/mis-interpreted the verse that I believe he is referencing. He seems to be focusing on Mark 16:17 but JESUS preceeded that with this statement to the 11 that were sitting there with Him… Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Jesus didn’t say to seek the signs and wonders but said “..preach the Gospel…” and in this verse(s) the things that would follow those who believe, He was speaking to the 11 first, as they went out and preached the “doctrine” of the gospel these things would also accompany them.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I don’t believe (correct me if I am wrong Craig) that Craig is saying that “signs” cannot happen, but, it is by Jesus words first, that the “gospel” must be preached and then, (I believe) that if these signs are needed, they will occur. These signs are not for believers but for un-believers. Those who do not accept the gospel. Those who believe are in no need of the signs, for they believe by faith, by hearing and THAT is salvation. Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Signs and wonders IS NOT the way of preaching the gospel, but rather the “extra” God uses, when needed, 1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
I don’t know if Bill Johnson will be saved. That is NOT MY CALL or Judgement, but by golly, what if, just what if this whole area falls under the judgement of Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Where is the FEAR OF THE LORD in these matters? Where does the line get drawn? When do we really look at what Jesus said and take it seriously? Who do you think these people could be in the verses of Matthew? Is it not even possible to be those IN the church?
IWTT,
Your assumption about my stance re: ‘signs’ is correct. I did state that somewhere here in these growing number of comments.
@IWTT, I understand what you are saying. Your concerns are reasonable. I disagree with your interpretation of Mat 7:22. I don’t think Matt 7:22 was put in the bible (by God) to keep the charismatics in line (lol). I think Matt 7:22 is saying “if all you want is the power, and never grow in brotherly love or community, you are worthless to me”, there are many charismatics who function in the power, but are not decent people overall :/
If that’s the case, if Matt 7:22 is God’s way of keeping the charismatic fire down, then why are their verses like “Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit” and “In the last days, many that are religious will deny the Power thereof” and “the Kingdom of God isn’t interested in words, but displays of Power” and look at the book of Mark, its a book of miracles…
This is my point, you can’t take a miracle working Jesus out of the bible. You can’t “put the miraculous in it’s place”. It’s obviously something. Now a good christian will not chase miracles, he will strive to be faithful, and the Holy Spirit’s gifts will catch up with him. This is, in my opinion, the most honorable path to the supernatural. But you can’t say, the miraculous isn’t necessary, or its not the way God WANTS to operate. You have to, in my opinion, you must (on basis of scripture) admit that God is a supernatural God, who tends to and DESIRES to work in that way- supernatural ways, there just isn’t much of it these days. And Bill Johnson is tapping into God’s power. Okay. I’m not a hardcore Johnsonite, he’s not my preference, but God is doing stuff at Bethel and I say “Yahoo God” to that. You guys say “it’s not God” and I say “you missed the Kingdom, it passed by”.
I’m not sure if this verse supports what I’m saying, but I like it, and it may support my point. Luke 5:17.
Also, I my stance on Matthew 10:7-8, is the same. The Holy Spirit is for a believer, available (a present help?- Luke 5:17). Waiting to be used, like it was used by Jesus. I believe Matthew 10:7-8 is a command to those who would “make room for it” to use this power. Why? To help others and bring glory to God. Therefore, it is arguable not biblically wrong for Johnson to say “what have I done?” when Jesus would tell his disciples, in essence, “you do a miracle now.” Hey, this may ruffle you, but its in the book!
Omar,
To answer your question posed in the 2nd paragraph, Matt 7:22 is speaking of individuals who are NOT using the power of God in the first place. This is why Jesus closes this section with “I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!” [NIV 1984].
The Holy Spirit points to Christ and NOT to Himself. Those who “deny the power thereof” are either working by the flesh or they are working by another power altogether and their emphasis, by looking at the full context (as I mentioned earlier), is greed.
You seem to miss the whole point here – we are NOT Jesus! We imitate His humility in coming to earth as God while assuming the limitations of man (while yet still functioning as God and being fully God) in order to serve others. We imitate Him in our service; we are not to imitate Him as a miracle worker. Miracles may or may not attend the preaching of the Gospel; and, as IWTT states, miracles are signs for unbelievers, not believers. This does not preclude miraculous healing by God’s sovereignty. His ways are not our ways.
Jesus came to make Atonement for our sins. His miracles were signs the He was who He said He was (John 10:37-38). He came to ‘heal’ mankind of our ‘sin sickness’ in order that we may have life. The hyper-charismatic claim that all are to be healed is proven false on a number of fronts. The Apostle Paul had sickness. Timothy had sickness. Most importantly, they all eventually died and were not subsequently resurrected – resurrection being the ultimate in healing.
God will not be mocked. If someone is preaching a ‘different Jesus’, God is not going to be there.
Omar,
Really now. Look at the context of Johnson’s quote.
“What have I done? This guy thinks he hobbled in here…wait until he tries to walk out!”
Then, Johnson admits that he made a mistake with his comment “God covered me”.
I don’t understand your disconnect on this one. In my view, this is one of the easiest posts on CrossWise to understand regarding the aberrant practices and theology of Johnson.
“Miracles may or may not attend the preaching of the Gospel; and, as IWTT states, miracles are signs for unbelievers, not believers. This does not preclude miraculous healing by God’s sovereignty. His ways are not our ways.”
Understand Omar, that I am coming from the premise of predestination. If God makes some vessels for honor and others for dishonor or if he has predestined some since before time, then all I have to do as a believer, (one saved by hearing the word of God, faith being appropriated or better said as referred in my earlier post, Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God) is be obedient to what JESUS SAID that being, (Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature).
When I say that signs are for unbelievers that is because some will hear and not respond, but there is always that chance that a sign to follow the preaching might help build their faith to believe if the sign is manifested at the will of the Holy Spirit who will always point to Jesus and why He came to earth as a bondservant.
You see I am not a cessationist, I am a continuist that follows reformed theology. I have been there and done that, a worship leader for a deliverence ministry and was part of the beginnings of starting Harp and Bowl and my church. I was into prophecy, was called upon to pray and prophesy over the graduates of the young peoples (sort of like) Masters Commission. Taught many a group on prophetic worship, until one day I believe the Holy Spirit gave me a caution a “red flag” and I began to look biblcally what I was taught, what I taught in return and what I was getting involved in. I was brought to my knees in repentence and to this day I will stand for or “contend for the faith” with those who think Bethel or IHOP or any other hyper-charismatic-NAR-istic, group is “teaching/preaching” a true gospel.
Omar…just had a chance to read your comment. In reply to your question:
But I think the question here is, should a christian hunger for more? More relationship and
more encounters with God? If so, what is wrong with the charismatics, who hold prayer meetings and worship until they feel the King’s presence? Not the weird charismatics… I mean, what’s wrong with say a church that holds a once a month encounter-themed worship meeting.
To hunger for more of God is not wrong…of course! But what is real food and real drink?
John 6:54-56
New International Version (NIV)
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
As Craig said Keep in mind that Jesus Christ IS the Logos, the Word, the Message, made flesh. It’s the Word, not encounters that feeds our spiritual hunger.
I bring you back to just after Christ left the earth. What was the first thing that the apostles did with the 3000 new converts? Notice the order of first, second and third:
Acts 2:41-43
New International Version (NIV)
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
It’s precisely the cart before the horse if you seek Him through encounters. First things first.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
In conclusion, I think we aren’t seeing a lot of spiritual reality today because we aren’t eating real food…that is, devoting ourselves to the basics of the faith. We’re being fed a diet of junk food that has temporary highs and terrible cravings for highly-sensational-encounter-type fructose snacks with the inevitable crashes into a brain dead functional paralysis until the next junk food high encounter starts the cycle all over….
Let’s hunger for God…his Truth, his Way, his Life. And accordingly, we’ll see a different result.
Carolyn, I agree with what your saying. That’s how I feel about it. Like Paul said, “We make it our goal to please him.” I see the teenagers, and Jesus Culture-ites begging for an emotional experience, which I don’t look down on… but Jesus himself said “they except the Word with great joy and then after a while wither away”. So yes, we agree on that. This is where we differ, try to follow me, I think those emotional lifting experiences are a part of serving God. God doesn’t mind giving those things, of course that’s not our goal, “our goal is to please him”, but what type of gifts do you think the Father gives to his servants? “The Kingdom of heaven is righteousness, peace, and joy”- those are readily available. Why do i say this? I’ve gotten high on God in my room, I’ve gotten high on God in worship meetings, I’ve gotten high just talking about Jesus to friends. Once I saw a guy at a bus stop and asked if I could pray for him, and he said “I can feel God right now” and there has been other occasions. What am I saying? It’s not our goal, but it happens, and it should… but its not our goal, but its readily available, but its not our goal… so don’t frown upon it, let God frown.
IWTT,
I’m sorry that you have had bad experiences with charismatics……… I hate the term charismatics (I used to like it) but what else do you call christians that practice the gifts?- new testament saints?……. anyway, I’m really sorry that you broke away from God’s plan for you, and became a pharisee. Listen, the gifts are readily available. You don’t have to be like the nut jobs out there, you can use your gifts that God has given you with better character than the maniacs you’ve seen before. It doesn’t have to be weird…….. well, lots of prophetic preachers say “it doesn’t have to be weird”, but Jesus was a little strange at times…….. anyway, it doesn’t have to be extremely weird. But, guess what, the gifts used right are encouraging. Who says the gifts aren’t ever for believers? Why in New Testament did a “prophet” give Paul a prophecy, and etc. If the gifts are for unbelievers, then God would have spoken to Paul directly. Or when Peter was freed from jail because people prayed for him. At one point God shook Paul’s prison and the doors swung open, and Paul didn’t even leave. The bible says “desire the greater gifts”, so if you don’t want to be miracle-seeking, the least we can agree on is not to be miracle-hindering.
Omar,
I see we’re at least a bit closer to agreement. I am not opposed to emotional experiences at all; I have had emotional experiences in a variety of ways: in worship meetings, when a door is opened to preach the Gospel to someone (not by something I would have contrived), when the answer to a perplexing theological question is answered “out of nowhere”, etc. However, I think we demean God by using the phrase “got high on God” – I think you mean well, but it sounds a bit sacrilegious to me. Let’s use the Scriptural terms you used, “righteousness, peace, and joy.”
You wrote, “…let God frown.” I see your point – but only to a point. We are to defend the faith as Jude was diverted into doing (Jude 3-4). However, certainly, there will be tares amongst the wheat and goats amongst the sheep. Scripture says we are not to ‘pull out the tares’ but rather to let them grow with the wheat. However, we are also told to separate from the Godless. We can only separate from those “who have secretly slipped in among you” (Jude 3, NIV 1984) by identifying them. We identify them by their faulty doctrine and practice – not that all are expected to have perfect theology, of course. But, when there is evidence straight out of their mouths of either a false/occult healing or a fabrication about a healing as we have here in this article, then it is our duty to expose it for the sake of the sheep.
Craig, I disagree with your stance, brother. You say “we are not Jesus”. That’s a bad statement, man. I hope God will correct the attitude that generates that statement. Doesn’t the bible say “we are being transformed into his image” and “He is the first of many brethren”? So if the bible makes it clear that I’m supposed to look to Jesus as the example of who I am to be… how can you say, in bold, you are not Jesus.
Jesus himself said “you don’t know the power of God”. Basically, Craig, when you read the bible and see the things God is willing to do, you say the power comes from the Holy Spirit. Then when a believer commands someone’s leg to be healed, you say the power comes from a demon. Well, how can you read the bible and then not believe its fulfillment? The bible pointed to Jesus, then Jesus came to earth and all those versed in the bible denounced him. How is that even possible? How can people so versed in the Word, be so stumbled by the manifestation of what is written about? These guys studied the bible night and day.
The bible is extravagant, God just does huge things in the bible for his pleasure. We are recipients of God’s pleasure. The verse “a father gives good gifts” isn’t a small scale verse, it means “the Father gives amazing things”. So lets not have a small scale about what God wants to do and what his plans may be. I think the scale should be big, the God in the bible is big, so I’m anticipating that God in my life will be big. They say “don’t put God in a box”, I think we should at the very least not hinder him.
Also, don’t reprove the Gospel. Its big, its supposed to be big. We were made in God’s “image”, Jesus came in “display” the Father. The least we can say is Man has potential, through the cross and the Holy Spirit. The bible says one of the gifts of the spirit is a pension for miracles. Not all christians are the same, some have been equipped to do miracles, by the Holy Spirit.
Phillipians 3:10, and Romans 8:17: “If we share in his sufferings, we also share in his glory”. You may say, God alone is worthy of glory, he doesn’t share it! Well, we aren’t worthy, and its a new covenant. So guess what, Jesus was glorified, and any believer is in a position to receive the same glory as well, according to the Father’s pleasure. So don’t reprove the bible.
Omar,
Perhaps you haven’t noticed that I use the term “hyper-charismatics” – this is to differentiate between them and “charismatics”. In theory, or at least as per Scripture, all NT believers should ‘practice’ the gifts. By that I mean:
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. [1 Cor 12:11, NIV 1984]
Let’s dispense with the pejoratives, Omar. No more name calling, i.e. “pharisee”. First and last warning on that.
Omar,
Not a single person will ever be the theanthropos, the unique God-man, God the Word in the flesh. We are to imitate Christ in service to others, humble ourselves as Paul states in Phil 2:3-7. The problem with many is they want to go from being a mere man and become God and simultaneously demote Christ from God to man, while Christ who was/is God added humanity to Himself for our benefit.
You make the assumption that Bill Johnson is a true believer. I don’t start with that assumption as I cannot know who is and who isn’t a believer. What I can do is study an individual’s doctrine and practice. If these don’t line up with the plumb line, then I have ‘reasonable doubt’about their position in the Christian faith.
No, you are mistaken; Jesus was not glorified as if He didn’t have glory commensurate with the rest of the Godhead – He always had the same Glory as the remainder of the Trinity, even if was veiled under flesh during His earthly ministry. We share in His glory as partakers of the divine nature; HOWEVER, we do not actually attain the same glory as the Godhead and by sharing in the divine nature we don’t actually become divine.
Omar,
I’m pulling this quote out because we are going ’round and ’round on this and I want to put it to rest. You wrote, “Craig, when you read the bible and see the things God is willing to do, you say the power comes from the Holy Spirit. Then when a believer commands someone’s leg to be healed, you say the power comes from a demon. Well, how can you read the bible and then not believe its fulfillment?”
You draw faulty conclusions based upon an agenda or blindness.
1) I look at a person’s doctrine and practice and if they don’t line up with Scripture, I have reason to doubt their position in the Christian faith. For anyone with eyes open and ‘ears to hear’, this short article, using Bill Johnson’s own words, provides serious doubt as to Johnson’s position in the Faith.
2) Given Johnson’s words that “God covered me” for his (Johnson’s) mistake, then, logically, Johnson is claiming HE, rather than God, is the one who initially botched this healing. This is very plain.
You claim you’re not a Johnson follower yet your continued defense of him seems to contradict your words. Johnson’s statements are clear; so, either his initial healing which God subsequently “covered” was an occult/false healing or Johnson is fabricating. You can take your choice between one of these two options as there flat-out are no others. Which will it be, Omar? Do you believe Johnson is fabricating this, or do you believe Johnson’s initial healing was of the occult?
I want a straight answer to this question before I will release any more of your comments.
Omar,
I’m sorry that you have had bad experiences with charismatics……… I hate the term charismatics (I used to like it) but what else do you call christians that practice the gifts?- new testament saints?……. anyway, I’m really sorry that you broke away from God’s plan for you, and became a pharisee.
1st) – You are sooooo off base here. Nobody has hurt me. I haven’t been offended by anyone. You have just used the oldest response in the book. You have assumed that I had been offended by what people have done, and then label me a Pharasee. Slap your hand, you bad boy! Frankly, IF I were to be offended, I should be offended with God for taking me out of a situation that I whole heartedly was involved in, believed in.
Nobody hurt me, no body, offended me, no body did me any wrong, personally. I have been free-er in Christ since I left (as Craig said, notice the word), HYPER-CHARISMATIC camp and just allowed the Holy Spirit to show me truth from His word. I am more in love with the One who saved me than I ever was being involved in, what was suppose to be the moving of God.
I have had more REAL moments with the Lord and seen real miracles in my 44 years as a follower of Christ that I cannot deny, but I can also say with peace, no blame on anyone else, that I have seen the FLESH become more important than the Lord in many churches today.
Those who have taught me the things that are unbiblical I Love and they are wonderful people and I pray for them often, but what they have taught is wrong. I hold no animosity at them. I was deceived as they are and only God can rectify that. My responsibility, “rightly divide the word”.
I hate the term charismatics (I used to like it) but what else do you call christians that practice the gifts
2ndly – I, personally have no problem with the term charismatic. When I first came in contact with that, I can truely say that many were teaching a word that was truth, so being charismatic is not the problem. It’s people letting the flesh rule.
3rdly – People DON”T practice the gifts. They are used in the gifts as the Holy Spirit wills. Here is the mistake that many make. You and I have nothing to do with it. We don’t go to some Supernatural School of Ministry to learn the gifts because unless the Holy Spirit manifests them then it is all flesh. There is no need to practice a gift. The Holy Spirit is already perfect and can do just fine without our help. We on the other hand abuse these gifts by thinking that WE can learn how to and daily use them. You realize that scripture actually speaks of the abusiveness of the gifts and how services are run, right? Paul wasn’t applauding the Corinth Church but chastising them for what they were doing. Look at the book, it was a correction, was it not?
Craig says:
September 3, 2012 at 9:30 am
Thank you Craig…
Omar says:
September 3, 2012 at 9:03 am
Who says the gifts aren’t ever for believers? Why in New Testament did a “prophet” give Paul a prophecy, and etc. If the gifts are for unbelievers, then God would have spoken to Paul directly. Or when Peter was freed from jail because people prayed for him. At one point God shook Paul’s prison and the doors swung open, and Paul didn’t even leave.
I’ll concede this point to you. I was making the statement in light of a point I was trying to make. The gifts ARE for today and can be mainifested for believer and/or non-believer.
I’d like to ask this, Is Bethel method of the “supernatural” for real evangelism, of turning a wicked heart, sinful heart of the sinner to believing and following after Jesus in obedience? Do they REALLY preach “Christ crucified” or are they just expecting that the “experience” or “encounter” of some supernatural event is enough? What differenciates that from the pagen “supernatural” event? How do you really know the difference? What if God, in reality, has taken His hand off of these “experiences” and they are no more than “flesh” yet man says they are of the Holy Spirit? How can you tell the difference?
People say they want to be a fool for Christ. I say, being “foolish” for Christ is biblically the opposite of what these folks are doing.
Proverbs 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
Proverbs 15:14
The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, but the mouths of fools feed on folly.
Isaiah 35:8
And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
In response to Craig, what went wrong with Bill Johnson’s “botched” miracle. In my opinion, in that particular situation, God gave Bill a gift of power. What Bill spoke would occur. So Bill said “right leg grow” and it did. Then he told the other leg to grow and it did. Christians already know that words have power, they say “speak over your situation”, well this is what we already know just to a higher degree. Also, I believe, God is intellectually involved in the miraculous, He “sets us up”, He has certain things go a certain way for a higher reason. That’s my opinion. Remember when Elisha told those bears to kill those kids? You think God wanted that? I doubt it, the power just went out with his words. Elisha probably learned something that day too.
[Omar, I'm letting this one through since 1) it's an apology for an offense you caused; and, 2) IWTT can address the rest.]
IWITT, well I apologize if I was wrong about your being offended. In truth, I’m astonished that God told you to step away from charismatic circles. I prize revelation in my life and others… and for you to get revelation, from God, to step away from using the gifts… that really doesn’t vibe with my belief system (lol). I’m going to seriously think about that.
Two more things, if I may, where do you guys get your doctrine from? I know the bible alright, but I don’t know formal Doctrine very well. Where do I learn Doctrine?
Also, what are you guys’ views on the verse “desire the gifts, especially that you may prophesy”? The bible says to want the gifts, making it not quite an option.
Omar,
With all due respect, you have a very seriously distorted view of God’s sovereignty. God doesn’t give anyone power (stated correctly, it would be the Holy Spirit’s power working through the person) unless it’s in accordance with His will. Johnson purportedly attempted to ‘grow’ a perfectly good leg, while the other leg which had been broken, resulting in it being 1.5″ longer than normal, was left alone. Why would God ‘fix’ a leg which was not injured? And, the point you keep missing is that Johnson said “God covered me” – indicating it was NOT God in this initial healing at all. Additionally, Johnson’s account specifies the man screamed out in pain. If you think that God would inflict pain in healing, again, you misunderstand God’s nature. God doesn’t make someone worse in a healing attempt. How does that glorify Him?
God is not obligated to do anything that we ‘command’ or ask. He alone is sovereign. I’ve prayed in Jesus’ name, fervently, and some of those prayers went unanswered – at least in the way I thought they should. His ways are not our ways; but, He will not go against His character.
A related question: Do you believe that the enemy can do the miraculous (as Scripture makes clear as I’ve pointed out earlier)?
I will not release any other comments of yours unless and until you see this clearly; so, please do not post any more until we hash this out.
A true story: I prayed specifically for the healing of an individual as it was made clear to me I was to do so. It had been on my heart for a while; and, when the opportunity presented itself, nothing happened…except…Immediately after I laid hands on him (as per what I truly felt I was to do), he turned to me and said, “I know why I’m sick. It’s my prejudice…” He went on about his prejudiced beliefs. I told him God could remove that belief system if he would pray about it. I’ve asked him a few times afterwards and he has never prayed about it. And he’s still not healed.
Just after I did what I felt God wanted me to do in that circumstance, my burden for him lifted. It’s now on him to repent and pray about it.
You wrote, “Christians already know that words have power, they say “speak over your situation”, well this is what we already know just to a higher degree.” You are entrenched in the faulty Word of Faith aka Word/Faith theology. I’m sure you don’t realize this, but this is what occultists do. They believe ‘as above, so below’ – that what happens in the natural affects the spiritual and vice versa, that we can command things to be. And there are demonic powers who are glad to oblige them.
Yes, there is ‘power’ in the tongue as James says. But, it’s because words can either build up or tear down an individual. We must be careful with our words.
Craig, I like that you were obedient to God, I find that exciting, cool. But sometimes you say things that seem to clash with scripture… you said “as above, so below”, that’s not occultist… that’s the Lord’s prayer. I’m not familiar with the occult or New Age stuff, as far as I know.
Let’s look at the Lord’s prayer, the first part:
Father, may your Name be glorified (the number one way God receives glory is through miracles, Psalms 77:14),
Your Kingdom come (God’s Kingdom is purity, a feeling of peace, and a feeling of joy; Jesus said “Declare that the Kingdom is now and then heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, and cleanse the lepers”),
Your will be done on earth as in heaven (as above, so below).
You can’t deny that there’s truth in that.
Also, do I think the Devil can perform miracles? I do. But only with God’s permission and only for the purpose of eventually “stealing, killing, or destroying”. I do not believe that Satan is free to bring restoration to families or beneficial healings, for the purpose of misleading. I think he’s a stealer, killer, or destroyer. If the fruit of the action isn’t destroying something in this life, the Devil wouldn’t do it. I don’t see the Devil on a long chain, doing as he pleases, I see him defeated. Easily crushed. If a miracle brings healing to someone that was suffering, the Devil didn’t do it. God did it. There’s nowhere in the bible that the Devil is shown to be that powerful and cunning, to actual heal a person in order to promote a false doctrine. In the bible, healing is the main miracle/sign that Jesus was Christ. Restoration is God’s M.O.
As above, so below is from The Emerald Tablet of Hermeticism:
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/below_above.html
The phrase is NOT akin to “on earth as it is in heaven” even though this is in Eugene Peterson’s New Age perversion The Message.
For commentary on the Lord’s Prayer, see here:
http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=mat++6%3A9-10§ion=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1
Click on “Study Resource List” on the right. Most are orthodox, but some are a bit more liberal than others.
You’re getting closer with your understanding of the enemy. But, pay particular attention to this one:
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. [II Cor 11:14-15]
This implies that Satan will do many of the things true Christians would through his ‘servants of righteousness’. Also, keep in mind Matthew 7:15-23, especially taking note of the last line, “I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!” Our adversary is not omniscient, but he’s much more crafty than any mere human. We can never match wits with him in our own strength. This is why we are primarily told to “stand” in Eph 6:10-18.
There are reports of occult healings all over the globe in various false religions, some of them claiming it was “jesus” or “the holy spirit”. And, of course we know the enemy has done the miraculous in Job 1-2 and Exodus 7:10-12 (turning staff into snake) and again in 7:22:
20 Moses and Aaron did just as the Lord had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.
22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
I suggest you read over the actual post (it’s short) taking note of the things Johnson states in his book. So, is it an occult/false healing or is Johnson pulling our collective legs?
Well, I’m not sure about Bill Johnson then, your comments cause me to question him. I heard a sermon he preached last month on Jesus’ Blood, which cleanses us of sin… so he’s not all bad. At times he preaches things that are surprisingly basic. Like he preached once on how reading the bible changes you, your changed just by reading it. And he preached another time on us being pure, and how we should hate sin, and how our hate for sin is connected to our love for God. I was surprised to hear him preach like that, because he usually has some kind of new insight. So he’s not all bad. I think some of the other guys at Bethel are more out there, they say things I think are plain incorrect at times.
Sorry, I kinda went off on a tangent there, I wanted to ask you what charismatic preachers you agree with? How about Graham Cooke, or John Wimber?
Omar, I accept your apologies…
I prize revelation in my life and others… and for you to get revelation, from God, to step away from using the gifts… that really doesn’t vibe with my belief system (lol). I’m going to seriously think about that.
I DID NOT get revelation from God to step away from the gifts. I got direction through His word to step away from the false teaching of those that are a part of the hyper-charismatic camp (see that word again?) What I also got from the Lord was to put the gifts in their proper perspective and I got that from His word.
Look, I have a whole testamony of how God did this. I had to bring it before the leadership of my church as I questioned the teachings. It was with a different ministry but Bethel Church falls in the same camp, therefore, the same scripture applies. I met with the pastor(s) and I typed up 2 or 3 letters at their request of why I was so concerned. I did and guess what? The leadership of the 4Square Church I went to agreed with me. They said yes, these guys are teaching a theology that was and is considred a heresy.
I eventually did leave this church, under no duress or animosity from any one or myself. It was the leading of the Holy Spirit and it hasn’t been the 1st time that the Holy Spirit has led me away from one body to another.
You and I probably won’t agree on this but I believe that Deuteronomy 29:29 clearly states that the secret things of God belong to Him and that anyone who says they are receiving secret revelation/knowledge outside of what is written in His word is not receiving knowledge from God. All we need to know is from His word, studied in proper hernmanuetics in context of the whole of scrirpture. If single verse are used to support a belief, it is improper discernment if that verse. If the bible is silent on a matter then so should we.
I share these verses with you…
I Timothy. 11 “I urge you… Command certain men not to teach false doctrine any longer nor devote themselves to myths and endless geneologies These PROMOTE CONTROVERSIES rather than Gods work…” “… which is by faith. The goal of my command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience…” “… and whatever else is contrary to SOUND DOCTRINE that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.” (Paul)“…watch your life and DOCTRINE CLOSELY. Perservere in them because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” “… Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from Godless chatter and the OPPOSING IDEAS OF WHAT IS FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE, which some have professed and in doing so have wandered away from the truth.”
Matthew 24: 4 & 24 “… And Jesus answered them, ‘”Take head that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray’”… “…For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect…” (RSV)
II Timothy 4:1-5;
“In the presence of God and of Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word: be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Titus 1:9;
“He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.”
Titus 2:1;
“You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.”
False teachers don’t always teach falsely. If they did, it would be obvious that they are a false teacher. They mix good with bad. They may have a few sermons which are spot on. Then, they may say something like, “Did you know Jesus was born again?”
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/11/07/bill-johnsons-born-again-jesus-part-ii/
And:
Many believe His power exists only to help us overcome sin. This understanding stops very short of the Father’s intent for us to become witnesses of another world. Doesn’t it seem strange that our whole Christian life should be focused on overcoming something that has already been defeated? Sin and its nature have been yanked out by its roots…”
“…Many in the church are camped on the wrong side of the Cross…I don’t need power to overcome something [sin] if I’m dead to it”
Basically, Johnson – and many other hyper-charismatics – teach that Jesus did everything by the power of the Holy Spirit only. Given this faulty perspective, they’ll say that if you totally submit to the Spirit, you too can be sinless. That just is not true.
Here’s another Johnson doozie:
…It’s the Spirit of God that makes this thing [the Bible] come alive to where we actually have the privilege of the Word becoming flesh in us again, where we become the living illustration and manifestation of what God is saying.
There is only one Word made flesh and He is the second Person of the Trinity, God the Word/Logos.
Please don’t try to answer for Johnson on any of these quotes; they’re just to get you thinking about him overall. Let’s keep this thread on point. So, back to the subject at hand, given the numbers of biblical passages warning of false teachers/prophets, what about the question I keep asking regarding this post:
Is it an occult/false healing or is Johnson pulling our collective legs?
As for “revelation”, I have an occult book by Alice Bailey titled Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle in which she advocates the same practices as hyper-charismatics to get “new revelation”
The truly telepathic man is the one who is responsive to impressions coming to him from all forms of life…but he is also equally responsive to impressions coming to him from the world of souls [spirits] and the world of intuition.
and:
The thought-directing energy has for its source a Thinker Who can enter into the divine Mind, owing to His having transcended human limitation; the thought-directed receiver is the man, in exoteric expression, who has aligned his brain, his mind, and his soul.
Esoteric thought claims that the word repentance means “going into the larger (divine) mind”. Look at Johnson’s definition of repentance:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/learning-etymology-with-bill-johnson-a-new-age-repentance/
Yet, Scripture states we’ve already received all the revelation we need – it came in the Person of Christ:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. [Heb 1:1-2, NIV]
You had asked about prophesy/prophecy in 1 Corinthians 12-14. In it simplest form, to prophesy is to speak for God, to speak the very words of God. That is, it is to be God’s spokesperson. It can mean, as in the OT, to foretell future events; but, in the NT that is no longer needed as Christ has given us all the revelation we need in the form of the Biblical texts of the NT. We prophesy by being led of the Spirit and preaching/teaching the Word in context and in His timing to individuals who need to hear this particular word at that particular time (see I Cor 14:3-5 and 14:19 – “…I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct…”; and 14:9 – “…Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue…”).
Now, again, I direct you to answer the question posed earlier regarding this specific post before you ask any more.
Omar,
A suggestion: Stop reading any and all the books you have for a time and stick with strictly the Bible. Pick a particular book, say, Galatians, for example. Start by reading it all the way through the first time. Then go back and read more slowly a chapter at a time; in this way you get the full context. If there is something not clear, try:
http://www.studylight.org/
Once you plug in a particular passage, for example Galatians 4:19-20, you can find associated commentary:
19 My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you— 20 but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.
OK, what does it mean “until Christ is formed in you”? Click on the STUDY RESOURCE LIST on the right for answers to that. Try the MHC – Matthew Henry Commentary:
“…and the great thing which he was in so much pain about, and which he was so earnestly desirous of, was not so much that they might affect him as that Christ might be formed in them, that they might become Christians indeed, and be more confirmed and established in the faith of the gospel….”
Interestingly, according to Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, there is a Jewish idiom: “If one teaches the son of his neighbor the law, the Scripture reckons this the same as though he had begotten him.” Apparently, this is what the Apostle Paul had in mind in describing himself as being in “labor” (or “travailing” in KJV) for “my dear children.” Presumably, the Galatians would be familiar with this idiomatic phrase; so, the point would be made. This metaphor is also used in I Corinthians 4:14-15:
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
If you don’t have a good study Bible with parallel passages in the middle, I suggest you get one. For example, in my NIV (1984) Study Bible, for Galatians 4:19 it refers to 1 Thess 2:11, Romans 8:29, and Eph 4:13. This helps to see how the Bible answers itself- how it’s one cohesive whole – with Scripture interpreting Scripture.
“But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, ‘This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.’” [Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15, etc.]
HOW CAN WE TELL BY WHAT SPIRIT BILL JOHNSON PERFORMS, OR HAS PERFORMED MIRACLES?
Those of us who question the “anointing” as promoted by Bill Johnson (among others), or who cast doubt or even refute the notion that such men are acting by God’s power, should expect to be called “Pharisees”. Anyone who questions Bill Johnson’s version of the “facts” should expect to be called an “anti-christ”. What defines “anti-christ”?
The Scribes and Pharisees were the most learned men of the day. They not only had the history of their people and the prophets as recorded in the scriptures to study, but they had practical experience with a variety of surrounding pagan traditions. They believed and taught that the prophets performed miracles by the power of God. But they also understood that people who practiced sorcery did not perform supernatural works by their own power, nor by the power of God, but with the help of demonic forces.
The Pharisees claimed Jesus was a sorcerer. They claimed Jesus was acting by the power of the devil. They had to try and prove their claim because the only other possible explanation was that Jesus was doing these things by HIS OWN POWER AND/OR BY THE POWER OF GOD. They tested Jesus against scripture, and tried to trap him by demonstrating he was acting contrary to the law and the prophets. But they could not find/prove any discrepancies because Jesus was indeed the VERY WORD OF GOD.
If the Pharisees had acknowledged that Jesus could do such things by HIS OWN POWER OR BY THE POWER OF GOD, they would have had to acknowledge HIS DIVINE AUTHORITY and accept the claims He and his disciples were making. This they refused to do even though Jesus passed every test they threw at him.
So what makes my/our accusation against Bill Johnson any different from the accusation the Pharisees made against Jesus? Does Bill Johnson actually pass the test of scripture, the test of a prophet, but we are acting like blind guides (Pharisees) by stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the truth?
Shaman’s study the creation (cosmos) looking for ways to gain influence over it, and spend a large amount of energy trying to convince others that they have acquired the ability to tap into, or “channel” supernatural power. A shaman may even claim such power emanates from God, but that does not make it so.
Craig has written many pages explaining how Bill Johnson’s “Christ” differs from the Christ of Scripture. Contrast this with the Pharisees who failed to demonstrate that Jesus was acting contrary to the Law, or that Jesus did not match the prophecies and the scriptures perfectly. Jesus not only fulfilled all the prophecy and all the law, but with the NT as our witness, He did it so all those whom believe on Him, could experience grace, mercy, redemption, hope, and eternal life.
Neither Jesus, nor the disciples, needed to practice channeling in order to perform miracles. Jesus needed no helpers, no angelic beings, no hidden forces to do what He did. Jesus needed no “partner”. As Christians we believe that Jesus performed all the miracles/works that are recorded in our Bible BECAUSE HE WAS GOD.
The disciples also performed miracles. Did they claim to have the power to do these things in and of themselves? Did they claim to be tapping into or acting in “partnership” with God? NO! The disciples were able to do the same things Jesus did because Jesus gave them HIS DIVINE authority for the purpose of glorifying Him. Jesus was the source for every healing, every dead raising. It was all about who Jesus was/is, and what He was doing /has done for us.
Can people still be given these same gifts today? Sure, but it’s always for the purpose of glorifying God. The disciples were not given Jesus’ authority and power to build up their own ministries, or demonstrate some sort of special “anointing”, or to fulfill their own destinies, or construct the Kingdom of God on earth.
I submit to the reader that there is enough factual information and scriptural comparisons exhibited on this blog to convince any sincere individual the truth about what kind of spirit is behind Bethel’s “anointing” and specifically, Bill Johnson’s ministry.
Sorry to just jump in to the middle of a great conversation, but just one thought in case it’s one that hasn’t been shared recently….
My feelings about Bill Johnson aside, I think his game is far simpler than potential sorcery…his brand of “miracles” are more about prosperity. In short, I think that the belief he is performing actual miracles in the name of any power is giving him far too much credit. Calling him a heretic or sorcerer assigns a level of importance to him that requires the rank and file at Bethel to defend him without question…you’re throwing stones at their Papa Bill. I’m not saying stop, or that he should be ignored, I’m just saying that a solid opposition is as simple as pointing out the fact that no actual miracles are coming out of Bethel. I read a lot of hearsay accounts, have seen plenty of questionable videos, anonymous testimonies, have been told time and time again I just have to trust the unimpeachable sources, and most recently saw a still picture of a gold tooth courtesy of Healing Herald that was evidence of a “dental miracle”. For a Bethel miracle, all you apparently need to prove that your arm grew back after a car accident is a picture of you with both of your arms. For such a tech and social media savvy organization, they put zero effort into providing an accurate accounting when it comes to the miraculous. You can purchase Bill’s latest works on Kindle, but miracle reports are relegated to Big Chief tablets, I guess.
Granted, it’s not as interesting as discussing doctrine when they start in with the “trying to prove a miracle can put you in such an analytical frame of mind that it minimizes God’s glory” argumentation, but it cuts straight to the heart of the matter. If I were in leadership at Bethel, I’d breathe a sigh of relief to see people arguing doctrine as long as it kept them from auditing the miracle reports. Miracles don’t have to actually be happening at Bethel for the organization to prosper, you just have to create a cult of personality complete with theme music that SAYS miracles are happening and sell a concept of faith that says “as long as good things are happening and we keep growing, how can the miracles NOT be real?!?!”.
zeemanb,
I don’t disagree with your opinion on this. However, it becomes a non-starter as those who support Bethel make all kinds of claims, believing the hearsay. And since there IS no documentation one way or the other, those on the ‘pro’ side believe them carte blanche while those skeptics among us sit in disbelief. Bethel refuses to provide documentation when pressed citing HIPAA laws or claiming we just don’t believe in God’s power. But, hey, if it were me who was healed, I’d be telling EVERYONE, providing proof, etc. to give glory to God. But, that’s just me I suppose.
This sort of thing has been happening in Benny Hinn’s ‘ministry’ for years. Are there any bona fide, proven miracles? Nope.
My main reason for doing this article is to show that with this particular one there is no middle ground. There are only two options: either this botched healing of Johnson’s is of the occult or he’s pulling our collective legs. Either answer is not a good one. Once the reader recognizes the possibility of occult healing and that this ‘healing’ account does not align with Scripture, they may well defer to the side of fabrication instead. Again, either way, it’s not good.
Z,
You believe there is no evidence for any of the claimed “supernatural miracles” at Bethel Church. Fine. I certainly do not dispute what you are saying. I applaud your reasoning and fact checking. You may be absolutely right.
The question then is this: What if feathers and/or gold dust actually materialized and fell on you during a Bethel worship service? What if Bill Johnson or one of his minions actually manifested power to do something supernatural, something no one could explain rationally? What if supernatural stuff was really happening at Bethel church, or began happening tomorrow?
Would this validate Bill Johnson’s version of Christ? Would this prove Bill Johnson was a prophet of God?
My point is that sooner or later, no matter how skeptical you/me/we are, we will have to deal with real signs and wonders, and not be deceived by the show of power.
Hmmm. It seems I read zeemanb’s comments a bit too quickly. In doing so, I thought the point was strictly about the ‘healings’. But, now I see he’s not believing any of the signs and wonders. While I’m unconvinced of the reports of miraculous healings, I do recognize the possibility of either true or false ones.
However, I don’t disbelieve the gold dust and ‘angel’ feathers falling at Bethel; I just don’t know if they’re dubious or a false sign. Of course, there ARE no angel feathers. Bud Press checked another claim of angel feathers with samples provided to an ornithologist (bird expert) who found them fowl instead – bird feathers. And, I’m quite sure in this case that birds of a feather, flock together…
It’s getting hard to keep up with this convo now, because everyone is at different levels.
So I just wanted to say this. Bear with me. The Pharisees knew the bible better than the back of their hands. They had it memorized, and they even decorated their clothing with bible verses (they had cords with bible verses written on it, hanging from their clothing.) But when Jesus came they didn’t recognize him.
Jesus said “You search the scriptures, but I am the scriptures” and Jesus was furious with them. Now follow me… the bible says “The Holy Spirit leads us into truth… anyone led by God’s Spirit is a child of God”.
Therefore, you got to be lead by a spirit, God’s Spirit (by God’s decree, you’re going to be led by a spirit anyway you look at it… just choose to let it by the Holy Spirit). The bible alone is not good enough, you need to be led by God’s Spirit! And I love the bible, but thats what the bible makes clear: be led by God’s Spirit in addition to searching scripture. I mean, this is concrete stuff, its the words from the Word.
Also, you say a bible verse out of context can not be used to imply a revelation? Acts 1:20, Peter takes a Psalms out of context to apply to the situation of finding a new 12th Apostle. My point, you CAN use scripture out of context IF the Holy Spirit is leading you to. (Sorry for the caps, I’m just trying to clarify my point).
And I’m not trying to sound occultic or whatever, I’m telling you what the bible makes clear. I hope I said it alright so that you won’t be stumbled by the wording I used.
Omar,
I don’t see the Acts 1:20 verse as taking other verses (two different Psalms) out of context. It’s merely making application of those verses. But, here’s the deal: the NT is already canonized as Jesus was the last Prophet (of a foretelling nature) as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes clear. Now Jesus speaks to us through his Word – the complete Bible.
Yes, the Pharisees had their Bibles memorized; however, their hearts were not in it as Jesus well knew. They added to the Bible via their oral traditions and made these a burden no one could possibly bear. Just their mandates on the Sabbath show how ridiculous they took one of the commandments. They were hypocrites, not living by the Law of Moses they proclaimed. They were not led of the Spirit of God.
John 6 makes it clear that no one comes to the Son unless the Father enables them (John 6:27,44,65). The Pharisees in Scripture (excepting Saul turned Paul) were not drawn by the Father. This doesn’t mean that all Pharisees were not enabled (again, except for Paul) – only the ones we read about in Scripture.
[FYI, to make bold, use the left arrow key below the K, type b, then use right arrow key to start bolded section; to finish, use left arrow, /, b, right arrow. I can't show the example here since it will default to bold text without showing the html tags, so I'll substitute brackets instead: [b]bold portion[/b] (again using left-right arrow keys instead of brackets) = bold portion. The same for italics except use i instead: [i]italics[/i] = italics]
Omar,
Your point on being led by the Spirit in order to ascertain the truths of Scripture is a very good one. With this in mind, why do we have Johnson proclaiming a different Jesus from Scripture on numerous occasions as this blog shows in myriad articles? Using your own (correct) words, wouldn’t you conclude that Johnson wasn’t led of the Spirit?
As just one example:
The outpouring of the Spirit also needed to happen to Jesus for Him to be fully qualified. This was His quest. Receiving this anointing qualified Him to be called the Christ, which means “anointed one.” Without the experience [“Christ anointing” by the Spirit after water baptism] there could be no title. [Face to Face with God; p 109]
So, Jesus couldn’t be called the Christ until the ‘experience’ (anointing) of Baptism?! I’m sure you’re unaware, but this is precisely what some occultists teach. As but one example:
The word Christ means “the anointed one,” and then it is an official title. It means, The Master of Love. When we say ‘Jesus, the Christ’ we refer to the man and to his office; just as we do when we say…Lincoln, the President…Lincoln was not always President, and Jesus was not always Christ. Jesus won his Christship by a strenuous life…we have a record of the events of his christing, or receiving the degree Christ. Here is where he was coronated…
Both quotes contained in this article:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ-part-iiia/
Of course, if these occultists who are perverting Scripture truly did understand the Scriptures, they’d understand the gravity of their actions and not do so and repent of any previous doings in this regard.
Therefore, you got to be lead by a spirit, God’s Spirit (by God’s decree, you’re going to be led by a spirit anyway you look at it… just choose to let it by the Holy Spirit). The bible alone is not good enough, you need to be led by God’s Spirit! And I love the bible, but thats what the bible makes clear: be led by God’s Spirit in addition to searching scripture. I mean, this is concrete stuff, its the words from the Word.
Omar, above is quoted from you from earlier post… I will approach this small testamony based on what you have just written.
I was in a deep discussion and disagreed with something that a dear brother in the church wanted to get involved in. We were in deep prayer… looking for God direction for us.I want to share something from a journal entry I made regarding the direction we were looking at…
Journal 1/17/07 –
I wrote a pretty clear letter to { }that I could not attend the seminar on “Growing in Christ” nor lead the worship for it. I felt that my warning and request to hold off until all research could be done was a good compromise. Why teach things to a group of people that could be potentially wrong thereby “leading the elect astray”. Why not search for truth and then when all are satisfied teach in the things that are sound and true. Later, I was beginning to feel pretty bad what I had written and sent to { } by the time bed time came along, but I had to just leave it in the hands of the Lord.
Then this morning I awoke at 4:45am and started praying as I lay in bed asking God to show me if I had made a mistake. I began to get a small thought, which I believe to be through the Holy Spirit “..read I Timothy”. I finally got up and began to read. Here is what I believe to Lord showed me…
Chapter 1:3-11 “I urge you… Command certain men not to teach false doctrine any longer nor devote themselves to myths and endless geneologies These PROMOTE CONTROVERSIES rather than Gods work…”
Apparently one of the signs that Paul writes to us to look for when false teaching is presented is CONTROVERSIES. There is a great deal of controversie between { } and I and in the church at large over the teachings of { } and the { }. Paul goes on to say,
“… which is by faith. The goal of my command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away…”
At this point Paul specifically talks about the teachers of the law. He then describes what and who the law is for and he finishes this specific thought with,
“… and whatever else is contrary to SOUND DOCTRINE that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.” (Paul)
Chapter 2 – Instructions on Worship
Chapter 3 – Overseers and Deacons
Chapter 4 – Instructions to Timothy
Timothy is told in this chapter verse 16…
“…watch your life and DOCTRINE CLOSELY. Perservere in them because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
After further instruction Paul finally closes his thought with verse 20-21 of the last chapter,
“… Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from Godless chatter and the OPPOSING IDEAS OF WHAT IS FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE, which some have professed and in doing so have wandered away from the truth.”
I think this morning has been a clear indication from the Lord that I just might be on the right road when it comes to my discernment that something is not right about the foundational teachings and beliefs of { } and those who teach it and the { }.
Omar,
I sought the guidence of the Holy Spirit,, and He guided to the the truth… the bible… how do I refute this word of scripture when I sought the truth from the teacher of truth and He takes me to the the truth His Word….. was I not lead by the spirit, God’s Spirit ? How do I argue this and also the leading to 2 Peter 2 in the matters of Bethel AND other such ministries? Are these lies from God? I think not.
Well IWTT, what you are saying is actually exactly the point i was making. Be lead by the Spirit, so yes that’s what I’m saying. But sometimes being led by the Spirit goes beyond the type of instance you’re talking about. For example, you may be wondering if you should buy a house, and you pick up the bible and you read a verse like “Jeremiah bought the potter’s field”. Or you might feel like you should talk to someone, or you might get a word of knowledge about someone and feel led to pray for them. Being led by the bible doesn’t always take you directly to doctrine, but it always vibes with whats in the bible (which is doctrine, as I understand the word doctrine). What I guess I’m trying to say is being led is, biblically, action orientated. Many Christians I think are constantly checking in with God, “Am I 100% right? Am I 100% right?”, but I think sometimes God’s heart is in spreading something. Spreading restoration, spreading knowledge. I actually believe that action takes precedence over correct doctrine. Although, correct doctrine is vastly superior to incorrect doctrine. When we get to heaven we will know everything, right now we won’t. The Great Commission is action orientated, not “get it 100% right”.
Somewhere in there is my point, good luck finding it.
Omar,
I won’t disagree with your comment here as I do think people are led by the Spirit in various ways, although there are those who attach prophetic signficance to just about anything. As regards ‘perfect doctrine’, take a look at this very short post:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/are-you-a-heretic/
The Christian faith is certainly not some sort of exclusive club only for those who can intellectually grasp the finer points of doctrine. I know of individuals whose faith I do not question, but their knowledge of some pretty basic doctrine is very minimal. No one is saved by perfect theology; however, bad theology can well be the mark of someone worshiping ‘another Jesus’.
But, again, when a pastor/teacher is putting forth doctrine which is strictly at odds with Scripture regarding the Person of Christ (such as the quote of Johnson I used at 7:26 on 9/4) I have to seriously question whether they are in the faith. A slip of the tongue is one thing, but continued teaching which perverts the Person of Christ and His work puts one by definition outside the faith. Certainly, you’d have to admit that the Spirit leads us into Truth about Christ as that’s His primary role (John 14:26, 15:7, 16:8-11); we are not saved apart from (the real) Jesus. How can one pray ‘in Jesus’ name’ while having a basically faulty conception of who He is?
So, then, a prayer for healing ‘in Jesus’ name’ in which a teacher has a faulty conception of Jesus Christ (as in He didn’t receive His title of Christ until Baptism) resulting in an initial botched healing in which a man screams out in pain would be highly suspect, would it not?
Omar,
I got your point and I don’t disagree with you. But I also agree with Craig. It’s been said to me that in reality one’s theology drives whom they are preaching about and share the gospel.
There are many theologies out there, Purpose Driven Model Churches, Dominion Theology, Manifest Sons of God, Word of Faith, etc. etc., and when you really become berean about what they are teaching, the question has to become, “Is this the same Jesus as in the scriptures?” It really does make a difference.
I was given a clear warning, being Spirit led to stay away from these teachings that we are discussing, not only here, but other sites who discuss issues about these same camps. I have to be obedient to what I have been instructed through the very Word that has been given to me. I believe that the Lord was showing me through His word that Bethel is full of false teachers, false prophets that are teaching damnable heresy. The following verse was given to me as well at the same time I wrote that jounal entry.
2 Peter 2:1-9
English Standard Version (ESV)
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
I am not just some fly by guy in this. I have been there, done that and did this for 30 some years before my eyes were opened. I have to say Omar, you have come to this site, hopefully read the posts/articles and haven’t you wondered why God has brought you here?
Is it possible that God is trying to save you as it states in the 1 Timothy “…watch your life and DOCTRINE CLOSELY. Perservere in them because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” We are told to seperate ourselves from such as these. Is it possible God is trying to tell you to STOP and move on to a better way?
Matthew 7:22 I take very seriously….21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Look at this, He calls those who performed many miracles “in his name” evil doers. I would think that would put the fear of God in any one who walks this road of the “signs and wonders” camp. Apparently, even those who are mentioned in this verse thought they were doing the “works” in the name of the “right” Jesus. I guess not.
Indeed, it’s been an interesting discussion here…
I am interested in doing research on the gold dust cloud formations claimed to be signs of “the presence” at Bethel Church. Supposedly some of this gold material sprinkles down upon the onlookers, so I’m thinking somebody out there should have some of it in their possession. I understand that the feathers have been tested already, and they turned out to be less than angelic. Anyway here’s a video of Bill Johnson discussing one of these “clouds”:
Please note: Pastor Bill says this sort of thing is increasing in frequency to the point of being quite common at Bethel. He even promises the crowd that it will begin manifesting in people’s homes and places of business. Hmmm…..interesting.
So if anybody has any of this golden cloud material laying around, please send me a vial. Place your name on the container, date it was collected, and return address on it. If it’s really gold, I’ll let you know, but I won’t promise to return it. Gold is just way too valuable these days. If it turns out to be something else, I’ll send it back. Maybe.
All joking aside, I do have a theory. From some angles the clouds at Bethel appear gray in color, smoke-like, while first hand accounts describe the clouds as sparkly and golden in hue. I think it is very likely that this material may turn out to be some sort of fine ash that glitters like gold under certain lighting conditions.
I think Bethel’s “gold dust” may actually be very fine ash. I say this because ash is very light and easily blown about and can reflect light and appear golden, red, or any other color depending on lighting. I fought forest fires so I know this is a fact. Just watch a smoke obscured sunset during the forest fire season for examples of brilliant coloration.
Another interesting fact is that ash manifestations are very well known occurrences surrounding the devotion of certain Indian gurus, specifically Sai Baba. Ash is cheap and easily produced, but it is also a very sacred material in the Hindu cosmology.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba
The ash is called “Vibuhti” for those who may be interested in this sort of thing. Click on this Youtube video link of the guru Sai Baba as he gets his hands dirty cranking it out:
Now for those who think all this smoke and mirrors stuff is just a bunch of cheap parlor tricks, all I can say is you may be right. Or you may be wrong. However, we cannot discount the possibility that something “supernatural” is indeed really happening at Bethel. Of course, even if there are real miracles happening, as I’ve said before, that does not mean it is of God.
For all the skeptics out there, let me just say that I knew a woman once who actually met Sai Baba at his ashram in India. The floppy haired guru was gracious enough to pull some “holy ash” out of thin air and sprinkle it into her hand right before her eyes. She wore a vial of the stuff around her neck as a token of the miraculous power of the swami. She was convinced it was sacred stuff.
As for me, I’d rather have real gold.
Steve,
I’ll tell you something, take it how you want. I have a friend who goes to this Healing Ministry, called a Healing Room. It’s christian, all about Jesus and using Jesus’ name to bring healing to people who really really need it. So I went once, not for prayer, but just to get to know the guys there….. so to try to make this story short, the leader told me they prayed for my friend and when they opened their eyes she had gold flakes all over her clothes.
I asked my friend, she said it was true, but she didn’t want to tell anyone because she didn’t want to be prideful (haha). So I believe this stuff happens. With Bethel its on such a big, flashy scale that you want to doubt it. But this stuff happens, I believe.
Another thing, I went to that Healing Room another time, and they prayed for me. I didn’t feel nothing. And the man there hit me in my forehead with his palm and I was startled and fell backwards. Lol, I don’t considered this a legitimate slaying in the Spirit. So when it was all said and done I felt normal, completely normal, and I thought “these guys are kinda weird”. Okay? But here’s the interesting part: When I left the building to walk to my car I felt soooo… the word I would use is “groggy”, I’ve never felt like that before. My mind was just dull, I felt like my thoughts had slowed down. Felt like I had molasses in my brains because my thinking was just really slow. And I felt super calm. I don’t do drugs so the best word I have for this feeling is “groggy”.
So my point is that, God does stuff. I think the problem is that when we assess the world and what is possible, we forget one variable: the Holy Spirit. We say, people are like this, and the laws of nature are so, and there are consequences…. and we have a world view that is missing one powerful variable: a mobile Holy Spirit that does what it wants according to an intellectual plan, and enormous love for humanity.
Omar,
M’Kayla here was formererly a part of the ‘healing rooms’. See her testimony:
http://mkayla.wordpress.com/a-trip-in-charismania/
Pastor Paul Gowdy was involved in the so-called “Toronto Blessing”; see his testimony:
http://iftruthbeknown.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/the-toronto-deception/
Okay, but if you’re terrified by all the deception in the world, you’ll just stay in your room with your bible- because everyone is deceived and all the spirits are out to get you. Jesus called us to the offense, not the defense. We have armor, we have the word of God, Jesus said go out and do damage to enemy territory. The question is: does Jesus want to come back to a pure, novice-in-warfare church, or a bloody-stained church that’s victorious in battle. Neither is completely right, but a person has to decide what God wants to see when he returns.
Another thing, the scriptures say “You lack nothing as you await Christ’s return”. Therefore, I believe that I lack nothing. I’m not hiding from the enemy, terrified about being deceived because I may lose my salvation. I’m going out to the front line. Jesus gave a call to arms. The bible says “be anxious for nothing”. If you don’t have faith, everything is going to scare us. You can’t be planting these seeds of doubt in everyone’s mind. We’re called to fight and win. I’m not scared of Bill Johnson or Latter Rain, I read my bible and let the words and the Spirit teach me.
I’m not afraid either. And I will be visiting Bethel (again) in the not to distant future. Lord willing.
Steve,
This may sound random, but I get the impression that God is happy about you. He likes you. There’s lots and lots of scriptures all over the bible saying “seek God”. God likes people that are out to find Him, its one of his favorite things. And He seems to be pleased with your decision to seek Him.
Also, I want to suggest that maybe you should ask God a question and then patiently wait for an answer. I think many people ask God a question and then wait 30seconds, God is silent and they say “okay there’s no God”. But we need to be patient with God because He is patient with us. So I think you should ask him for whatever your heart is really desiring to be revealed to you, and wait an extended period, like a week or a month, or even a year. And you may even want to set a specific time frame, “God… I’m only human, so I can only stand to wait two weeks to see if [blank] is true about you. Show me what you have in store for me.”
And God is pleased by faith, so believe what he has already shown you.
Yep, we learn to wait upon the Lord… Did that because I was given a personal word from the Lord, never told anyone about it but my wife and waited. The word was a three part word and two have come to pass and the third is close at hand.
You see most of us here are not afraid for we know whom we believe in. We know about the armor and that Jesus has defeated the enemy all ready. We keep our eyes on HIM and we learn about the wiles of the enemy from Gods word and we know how to do spiritual warfare, biblically.
Tomorrow I want to ask a question with a following thought. Time for bed..
Good night all
Steve: about the video. This is an excellent example of empty, meaningless talk. Why, I dare say, Spongebob has more substance than this silly message. Bill Johnson thinks that the offences we must bear are watching feathers come down around us and trying to explain gold dust clouds to potential converts? Come on! What??? How??? do people get saved from experiencing some feathers settling down around them? What a mockery of the gospel!!!
It’s the offence of our sins that the Bible is concerned with…not feathers and gold dust:
Isaiah 59:11-13 (New International Version)
12 For our offenses are many in your sight,
and our sins testify against us.
Our offenses are ever with us,
and we acknowledge our iniquities:
13 rebellion and treachery against the LORD,
turning our backs on our God,
inciting revolt and oppression,
uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
and the offence of the cross is our hope for redemption for the offence of our sins:
Galatians 5:10-12 (New International Version)
10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Paul had some serious warnings for preachers who abolished the offence of the cross because of a wrong emphasis:
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
The cross is the central message of God’s grace and Satan has this counterfeit “offence” that he portrays as something important. This man is deceived and deceiving others…
Omar: I no longer have an appetite for heresy. On the other hand, I am excited about what the Lord is doing…, but this is not it. This is deception. You are wasting your time trying to persuade me that Bethel has some good things happening. Even if an angel with feathers flying in all directions, preaches any other gospel than the one you have accepted…let him be accursed!
Emotional lifts are not the thing. Faith is the thing. Facts, faith and feelings….in that order. We’ll get our emotional lifts if we keep it in God’s order. Otherwise, we get the cart pulling the horse again.
Yes, I got up this morning, was going to ask a question about the healing Rooms, knowing what the answer would be, and then bring some scripture to the front to make a point. BUT…
I was syncing my iPad this morning and it dawned on me that what these people do is nothing more than another form or POWER EVANGELISM. I suppose this would be the steps..
1) A non-believer would visit Bethel
2) Bethel would have a “worship” service
3) emotionalism is attained
4) “supernatural” manifestations” would occur (feathers, gold dust, glory cloud, gold teeth)
5) non-believer would get caught up in the “experience”
6) Bethel will attribute the “experience” to the “manifest presence” of God
7) Non-believer would decide this is “real” based off of the “experience”
Oh look, I will be “prophetic” here. The decision to “believe” falls on gods perfect number 7. This is “supernatural” it must be the holy spirit that has done this. (yes I am being suficious here)
8) new convert (hasn’t heard the gospel) gets involves and goes to
a) Supernatural School of Ministry – must learn how to be “supernatural” as well so that power evangelism will occure through them as well
b) Sozo will be attended so that they can regress to their past and re-interpret the “hurts” so as to be healed of these hurts.
c) Why not throw a “Cleansing Stream Ministry” (a deleverence ministry) in there so that we can learn to blame satan for all of our addictions and sins. That way we won’t have to take responsibility for our own “sinful heart”.
9) Go to more Bethel services so continue to “experience” the “supernatural” and continue the cycle.
I have been there, I have participated in this stuff, I rarely hear the gospel in these types of service.
Boy, I can’t tell you how thankful I am that I have a close relationship with my Lord, that He would see fit to save me from this stuff. I feel absolutely “free in Christ”, I enjoy being able to pray with others, fellowship and study the scriptures that are powerful even unto salvation, meditate on His word, and know without a shadow of a doubt whom my identity is in. I have been made new in Christ, my mind is being transformed into the mind of Christ on a daily bases, I see Gods wonders and miracles all around me everyday and the Holy Spirit is alive and well guiding me and directing my paths. HE trueling has started a good work in me and HE will bring it to completion one day. I am an ambassador of another Kingdom that Christ reigns over. My faith is in Him and He will providentially fulfill His purpose in me as I trust in him each day.
Halleluia
Good comments IWTT. I think you have the steps down in perfect order.
This morning I read this commentary off DITC by Larry DeBruyn:
http://guardinghisflock.com/2012/09/06/getting-high-on-god/
which fits in well with what we are talking about in that: the fleshly nature of souls, have in the fleshly nature that is their soul, become duped on dopamine![38]
How can we make sure our spiritual experiences are genuine and not some cultic/occultic counterfeit that has transcended our real needs only to fulfill some mystical entrancement of our soul?
Although we should have a healthy fear of being duped by dopamine and/or mystical ministry, what we should fear most is the dishonesty and darkness of our own souls and the end that awaits us if we neglect so great a salvation. The Word/Logs promises to identify and cleanse us from our sins if we will but confess them as they are exposed to us by the Holy Spirit. That is true freedom and true transcendence!
Carolyn,
I read that as well. It was linked by Beyond Grace site. How can we make sure our spiritual experiences are genuine and not some cultic/occultic counterfeit that has transcended our real needs only to fulfill some mystical entrancement of our soul?
Isn’t this really the 64 million dollar question? I mean , I can certainly answer some of this but when you have a bunch of people who are looking for a “tangable experience” it’s hard to get them to get both feet on the ground and really think about what they are doing. And if there has been no real discipleship going on before their “experince”, (assuming they are believers at the time they experience this stuff) then how can they know the truth? What they experience IS the truth to them. It’s hard to show that there is something amiss.
I took post graduate bible courses in my earlier walk and I still fell in the trap. I was taught from a man that had a real handle on the scriptures yet, when I started having “experiences” they over rode my sense of right regarding the truth of scripture. Basically it became about ME. PRIDE! i want to be just like Jesus and do the things Jesus did without the boundries God established in His manual. In fact there is even a book out there titled, “Doing What Jesus Did” and there is a several week class that goes with this where you “practice” the things that He did, based on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
This, of course, then eludes to the thought that Jesus couldn’t do anything until He was Baptised in the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John….NOT. These are the very things that Craig has been addressing in his articles regarding Jesus divinity.
BTW, that article of DeBruyn’s was picked up by Herescope (they pick up most of them).
Well, IWTT, this is what I mean by the darkness of our soul. We really don’t know how dark until the Word/Logos penetrates it and shines the light on our motives and character, etc.
I can look around and I’m sure you can also and see a hundred different cultures, at a glance, that people I know are entangled in. And here’s just a small sample of a host of them….be it the “weed” culture, the beer and hockey culture, the yuppie culture, the homeschooling culture, the philanthropic culture, the Mennonite culture, the baby boomer culture, the child centred culture, the technology culture, the bar culture, the mega church culture….and since I was just visiting a fairly newly hatched mega church in Washington, this article by LD was of particular interest to me.
It just seems that in the natural, we cannot escape the hunt for that perfect drug that dumps dopamine into our brain or some other hormone like oxytocin that gives us the momentary high and sends us seeking for the next one. I remember as a charismatic, we were always hunting for that next experiential meeting or retreat or conference or group where we could feel like part of the Christian “culture”.
Here’s a thought. The 64 mill answer…when it becomes just the individual and God…when the group fades, the need to belong to something bigger than yourself dies, the dialectic is rejected and/or the group or “culture” mentality is denied…. in favour of a one on one relationship with the Bible, the Word of God/Logos and ourself…we become born again. This is commitment. This is spiritual living. And out of that we begin to manifest His life.
It’s never about the group again…it’s never about entertaining our flesh or selfish ambition or supernatural encounters. It’s about faith, obedience, discipleship and trust and Truth. It puts the individual on a pathway of holiness and submission…something the flesh is unable to do no matter how hard it tries apart from grace and fellowship in the Spirit.
And I agree…this is why we are interested in what Craig is bringing to light with the teaching on Christology. We have a clarity of eyesight (our eye is single). We have an ear that is open to the divine purpose and the importance of who Christ is and why He came. We sense our need and we are seekers of Truth. J’ai raison, n’est-ce pas?
IWTT: Pardon my French….My last question was, “am I right?” (about the 64 mill answer).
I was discussing this question of genuine faith with someone else about a week ago: When was I saved: when I grew up in the church? when my brain connected with my reasoning power at 6 or 7? when I made a decision for Christ as a child? when I went to the altar for the sixteenth time to get saved? in an emotional decision at camp? how about a new commitment to Christianity at a retreat? or an emotional excitement in Bible study? experiencing a mystical “knowing”? convicted by a dream? moved by an inspirational book? prophesied over?
I think, none of the above. I believe it was when I turned from the world, took up my cross and followed Christ…when I turned off the TV and made the decision to listen to The Word alone. Certainly, there were steps forward and steps backward from that moment…but I believe that was my real born again experience. The rest was playing church, taking part in a Christian culture and having a form of religion.
You said: “What they experience IS the truth to them. It’s hard to show that there is something amiss.”
Precisely…and isn’t this their own version of the truth according to their religious belief? I don’t think it’s possible to show anyone that their truth is amiss, unless they have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. He is the only one that can “change their reality”.
Hebrews 4:12 (ASV)
12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
You also said: “What Jesus Did” and there is a several week class that goes with this where you “practice” the things that He did, based on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
This, of course, then eludes to the thought that Jesus couldn’t do anything until He was Baptised in the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John…”
The confusion about Christ’s divinity that Craig has been addressing…also makes me think that people who are trying to understand the Word/God with their minds (religion) are blinded by their own agendas or they’ve been lied to be an angel of Light. I think it’s hard to miss the virgin birth/divine incarnation/sinless lamb of God/perfect sacrifice in the Scriptures. That would be the first thing that is illuminated by the Holy Spirit for a complete understanding of how our sins can be forgiven. I know it was for me. I didn’t need Craig to tell me that Christ was God come in the flesh…although he has expanded on it and broadened my perspective due to his research and discussion on the subject.
Which brings me to the part of the confusing teaching about “practicing” the gifts and “developing” the power of the Spirit supposedly at our disposal “the same as Jesus”… this has indeed become the devil’s playground for opportunists and false teachers. I won’t even attempt to start on that one tonight.
1st, thank you… this is great… Here’s a thought. The 64 mill answer…when it becomes just the individual and God…when the group fades, the need to belong to something bigger than yourself dies, the dialectic is rejected and/or the group or “culture” mentality is denied…. in favour of a one on one relationship with the Bible, the Word of God/Logos and ourself…we become born again. This is commitment. This is spiritual living. And out of that we begin to manifest His life. AMEN!!!
The confusion about Christ’s divinity that Craig has been addressing…also makes me think that people who are trying to understand the Word/God with their minds (religion) are blinded by their own agendas or they’ve been lied to be an angel of Light.
And isn’t this really the issue, from the beginning of time, the lie (in the Garden) that we can be just like God? There truely isn’t anything new under the sun. The angel of light has been spreading this lie since the first day of disobedience.
Yes, yes and yes!!
In the video Steve B. supplied with Johnson’s explanation of the ‘glory cloud’ and other ‘signs that make you wonder’, Johnson states (@ around 11:35) “He [God] adds an offensive element” in each new ‘move of God’. Johnson mentions Toronto specifically meaning the so-called ‘Toronto Blessing’ (which Pastor Paul Gowdy calls a ‘mixed curse’ in the link supplied earlier). Bill Johnson goes on to state (11:50), “But, I know this: If we remain presence-centered it won’t bother us.” It’s always about ‘His presence’, according to Johnson.
As I’ve mentioned in the “New Age Christ?” article and elsewhere on this blog, this looks like the Eastern Transcendental Meditation (TM) in which the goal is to unite oneself with the divine. In Brahmanism (a subset of Hinduism), to chant “Om” over and over is to invoke the powers of their god known as Brahma or Brahman. Similar practices are involved in ‘contemplative prayer’ – the repetition of words or phrases. Most are unaware that the term yoga literally means “union” in Sanskrit. This looks to be the same goal within hyper-charismaticism – a union with the divine.
Here’s my Webster’s definition for yoga: “in Hindu philosophy, a practice involving intense and complete concentration on something, especially the deity, in order to establish identity of consciousness with the object of concentration: it is a mystic and ascetic practice usually involving the discipline of prescribed postures, controlled breathing, etc.”
It seems hyper-charismaticism has readapted this practice, no?
As I see it Craig, this is just one more emotional appeal to something that isn’t Christian. What is the identity of “the Presence”? …which I think is the point you are making… Is it the same New Age Christ Presence that is leading literally millions astray? Although dressed up in Christian language, (and not even much of that), the invitation is to accept the stigma or offence of (false) signs, to be the sign and to unite oneself with The Presence. Pretty vague…pretty creepy….
Yes, you have it right. The Christ of the apostate, hyper-charismatic churches is more and more matching the identity of the New World Order Christ, the Catholic mystical Christ, the gods of other religions and the New Age Christ where a union with the divine is the goal.
Matthew 22:12-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
What are the wedding garments? What is Christ’s point about many called, but few chosen? What are we called to…contemplative connections? following some pied piper? uniting with a divine force? responding to an emotional plea?
No, we are called to come to the true Light, who is Christ Jesus, to the One who can clothe us with his righteousness…it has nothing to do with our performance…we are called to follow the risen Christ the One who has overcome, the One who is The Narrow Way.
I believe many are being called, as I was being called…for years, before responding by coming….
I think this is Paul’s point in testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith…which Christ are we following?
2 Corinthians 13:4-6
New International Version (NIV)
4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will live with him in our dealing with you.
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.
Are we following Bill Johnson’s chameleon Christ or are we following the Christ of the Cross?
Omar,
Bill Johnson may be many things, but a man of God he is not.
My intention in posting the videos of Johnson and Sai Baba side by side was to show the similarities between the two men. Even more importantly is the similarities in the mindset of THEIR DEVOTEES! If you knew anything about the tools of deception, you would know that Sai Baba’s devotees said exactly the same things about him as Bethel’s devotees say about Johnson. The ministries have multiple parallels, too many to describe here. Do your own research.
It is the devotees of both men who are being deceived and in need of the truth and light of Jesus Christ. Those of us who know the truth of Christ crucified need not fear these deceivers but should do everything in our power to awaken others to the danger such vain philosophies pose, and try to pluck those who can be plucked out of the fire.
If there is one lost sheep wandering around at Bethel, I don’t mind leaving the comfort of my own sheepfold to go looking. Omar, maybe you are that one? I’d love to chat with you over a cup of coffee when I visit Redding. But I don’t drink kool-aid.
But I don’t drink kool-aid. LOL!
I’m going to step away from this site, you guys seem hard hearted and determined to be faith-drainers and joy-drainers. Some of you know way more about mysticism and psychic-mumbojumbo than you should. The bible says “be innocent towards evil”, you shouldn’t know that stuff. You should test things in your Spirit, not do thorough research on the magic arts. Moreover, I have used lots of scripture in conversing with you guys, and you guys have used few, or the same verses repeatedly. You’re hard hearts will be a barrier between you and God. Luckily, Christ came to remove the “middle wall of partition”. Some of you know more about Doctrine and mysticism/occult, than the actual words of the Bible.
Phillipians 1:15-18:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
I would like to somehow soften your stony hearts in some way, but this is probably not possible for me. The scriptures say (above) to rejoice when someone comes to Christ, even though its not in the most favorable circumstances. You guys see young people being saved, jumping for Joy, screaming the name of Jesus… and you’re full of resentment, and say criticism. I want to submit that this isn’t a Christlike mind frame. Jesus said “let them come.” If someone is happy about Jesus, don’t steal their joy, by vocalizing your critical spirit. If you do, you will surely answer for it to God.
The bible says ‘You can’t say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit’ and the bible says ‘Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus was raised and you will be saved’. The bible makes salvation easy. God isn’t looking for super-elite, doctrine mastered, saints. He’s looking for joyful, “laid down lovers” (i.e. obedient, submitted seekers). God made Salvation super easy, you guys make it 10times harder.
One can not make a ministry from criticizing the ministries of others. My faith has actually been decreased since coming here. I used to think God wanted to do more, now it seems like His will is to do less.
You guys have no idea what God is like. Or what God wants to do. You say “God does what he wants to do.” But what does God want? The bible makes it clear. God’s will never has to be an open question. His timing is a question, but his will is clear. The blind man said “if its your will, you’ll heal me.” And Jesus basically said “Of course its my will, be whole.”
Omar,
As becoming increasingly evident, you miss the points. Is Johnson really preaching the Gospel? As to your “be innocent towards evil“, let’s look at the following for proper context:
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. [Matt 10:14-16, NIV 1984]
Jesus’ point about Sodom and Gomorrah is that they did not have the benefit of hearing the Messiah, whereas those who are preached to in the NT era have this opportunity. Therefore, their guilt is greater.
You seem to selectively forget the myriad Scriptures which warn about false prophets/teachers. If you really think God is under some obligation to protect you from false teachers and their deceptive practices, you are severely mistaken. His warnings are all over the NT, yet he will not violate your own free will. If you wish to follow false teachers/prophets, it’s your prerogative.
Paul was not unaware of the pagan religions of his day, but he used it to his advantange to evangelize (cf. Acts 17:16-34).
You wrote, “The bible says ‘You can’t say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit’ and the bible says ‘Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus was raised and you will be saved’.”
I’ve already covered that; apparently you only read or intake what you prefer. But, for the sake of other readers, I’ll post it again. This is from the Bill Johnson’s Christology: A New Age Christ, part II article:
However, Johnson does proclaim Christ’s eternal deity in most of these statements, doesn’t he? As regards this ‘affirmation’ issue, this proclamation of Christ, we must look at some Scripture such as 1st Corinthians 12:3, “…and no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit”. Gordon Fee, in his commentary on 1st Corinthians, does not see this as a “means of ‘testing the spirits’…” because “…it would seem possible for anyone to say these words at will“.77
The presence of the Spirit in power and gifts makes it easy for God’s people to think of the power and gifts as the real evidence of the Spirit’s presence. Not so for Paul. The ultimate criterion of the Spirit’s activity is the exaltation of Jesus as Lord. Whatever takes away from that, even if they be legitimate expressions of the Spirit, begins to move away from Christ to a more pagan fascination with spiritual activity as an end in itself.78
As to the 2nd part of your comment, one must state these words with real conviction, not lip service. As we don’t know who’s being sincere and who is not, our gauge is how closely they follow truth. Continuing in the ‘Johnson: New Age Christ’ article:
Following is Craig Blomberg expounding on Matthew 7:15-23:
Jesus now explicitly addresses the situation in which greater numbers profess Christ than actually follow him. He describes some of the pretenders as “false prophets,” those who claim to be God’s spokespersons but are not. Yet, like wolves in sheep’s clothing, they give all external appearances of promoting authentic Christianity in both word and work. “Prophets” as in the Old Testament, refer to those who either foretell or “forthtell” God’s word.
Verses 21-22 enumerate some of the ways in which individuals can masquerade as Christians. They may verbally affirm that Jesus is their Master, perhaps with great joy and enthusiasm…some [may] work various kinds of miracles…We are reminded that signs and wonders can come from other sources other than God…It is worth emphasizing, however, that one can never know with absolute certainty the spiritual state of any other individual.”79
Both scholars cited have PhDs and are well-respected, with Fee being particularly sympathetic to charismatic issues.
If you wish to believe that God wants all to be healed, then continue in your delusion despite the clear facts. Facts are: even the 1st century Apostles (the REAL ones) got sick and died; Stephen was not resurrected. The only two indivuals who actually escaped death (that Scripture makes clear) are Enoch and Elijah; all others have died. Yet, of course, there WILL be a resurrection of both the dead and the living. Some will go on to eternal life while the others will go on to eternal damnation.
God can still heal, as I state at the beginning of this article, but it is by His divine sovereignty.
Omar,
You wrote, “One can not make a ministry from criticizing the ministries of others”
Oh, I get it. But, in your own hypocrisy, you are allowed to criticize the ministry of others by selectively using Scripture and even taking some of those out of context. Look, I’ve had to delete your “Pharisee” comments of which you’ve been forewarned. Don’t you understand that the Pharisees primary problem was their hypocrisy and adding to Scripture (taking out of context) via their oral tradition?
Unless and until you have a change of heart, don’t bother coming back. And, if you do come back, rest assured I’ll scrutinize every jot and tittle deleting anything remotely in violation of the parameters set forth in the Before You Comment tab.
Some of the folks commenting on here in response to you were formerly part of this dangerous movement and wish to warn others. I, myself, was nearly led that way; but, I decided to do some checking first. I’m thankful I did. You can heed the warnings or go your way. Your choice.
Phillipians 1:15-18:
specifically verse 17 “…The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.”
Interesting, at least they preached Christ! I think what I question is whether or not Bethel REALLY preaches the Christ of scripture, or is 90% of the goings on based on poor worship services based mostly on song worship using songs that are meant to appeal to emotionalism with lots and lots of repetition and expecting that “manifestation” of the “presence” to be the evangelistic power. Is this really Christ crucified? I’ve been there and done that.
You guys see young people being saved, jumping for Joy, screaming the name of Jesus… and you’re full of resentment, and say criticism. I want to submit that this isn’t a Christlike mind frame. Jesus said “let them come.”
And again, not getting the point. NO ONE here has made the accusation that these young people aren’t saved! We cannot make that judgement call. No one can make that determination, because in the end, only God knows. Not even you OMAR can make that call. You are attacking us in the only way you know, by ad homiem, accusing us of attacking their salvation. Is that perhaps because in reality, you cannot defend Bethel and what they “preach” or “do not preach” as the gospel? Is it because you do not want to admit that just possibly you are wrong? I again think God is trying to save you out of the mire and you are not listening. You are “caught up” into the “signs and wonders” movement and it’s just too much fun.
We have not excluded that God CAN and DOES perform miracles today. We believe that scripture gives us the model of how that actually works and it ain’t the hyper-charismatic way.
We have used much scripture as you have done with us. So do not make that ad-homiem attack as well. I think the Holy Spirit has been speaking to your heart about this, and just like those of us who have had the same “talk” with God about this, you are having a hard time accepting the truth as I did. But God shall prevail, if you will but allow His truth, through proper textual reading of His word via the speaker of truth, the Holy Spirit, teaches you.
Side note, I have a friend who is going to a Bethel affilated church in my home town. I saw him at Wal-Mart one day and he admitted to me that he attended and graduated from the Bethels Supernatural School of Ministry (whatever its called) and as we are standing there a lady walked by obviously in physical ailment. He says to me under his breath, “Ladt, get your %$# over here so I can heal you!” Then he laughed. Hmm is this what they teach! 1) the disrespect and 2) the I in healing? I am not impressed…
To Omar!
I just read your post and my heart were crying together with you. I used to be so sad when people (in my ears) were talking negative of what I loved. Even if I had questions, I wouldn’t ask them because I was so afraid to quence the spirit. I only wanted to go to the prayer room and cry to God for more of Him, more of this and more of that – and I still think that my heart were 100% after His heart! I put all the questions or prophesies that I didn’t understand up on the shelf and stretched my hands out for more. I wanted and I belived in the end that I could take this joy and atmosphere out in the streets and blind eyes would be open because my faith in Him was so strong.
Then when, after being in mission for a while, I saw that I had put faith into my own faith in Him…and not put God where He belong – as the Souvereighn God – I needed to check why I believed what I believed. And to discover that alot of my influenses or experiences were half gospel, half Gnostisism, half occultism, little of Jesus suffering, alot of His glory…well my heart were crying….Just like your heart were crying in that post.
I know that alot of what I have learned through the years is good, and I do not call everything I have experiensed occult…rather minor. But what this guys that search the scripture do is helping me to open my eyes for what the whole bible teach. You know our Heavebly Father and allmighty God have his eyes searching over the earth to fully support those whose heart are wholy after Him…(free translation from The Cronicles), so do not be afraid to search for the truth, not only for what sounds nice in our ears, like I used to think was only the liberal theology, but it is really nice to hear a great prophesy in our ears isn’t it
why was I so blind for the all the false preaching. A burning heart and joyfull shouts is not an evidense of Gods presence…but it’s not nesesary wrong either – but we should not call it the glory of God maybe, and put it on film? That is what the world is searching for isn’t it?
Well, I just wanted to say, that I totally recognise your heart and cry! You want the truth and you will find the truth! Just an observation: He will turn the fathers heart to the sons, and the sons heart to the father! – let us not be sons that does not turn our hearts to the fathers, as far as I have read Craigs stuff, He really conserns about where the sons are going…I would listen. I have done it and, I have fallen in love with the Word again!
God bless you Omar, hope you find peace in the midst of this storm!
- love from Europe
Omar,
There is no shame in comparing Bill Johnson’s version of “Christ” with the Christ of scripture, nor in comparing what is going on at Bethel Church directly with paganism and the occult. The shame is all on those who propagate a culture of deceit, and on all those who turn a blind eye to what is really going on. We are called to exercise discernment, and while not practicing them ourselves, we should not be ignorant of the tactics of our adversary, the devil.
I’ve seen shamanism up close and personal, so when I see it displayed under the banner of “Christ”, you bet I will speak up and not be silenced. I am also a very rational thinker who prays to God that what I share with others will not be a hindrance, but instead, glorify God and edify my brothers and sisters in Christ.
So read on, or not, it’s up to you.
All the evidence seems to indicate that the “gold” dust which forms “glory clouds” at Bethel Church is a common mineral know as mica. Powdered mica glitters like gold and is light enough to rise upwards on thermal air currents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mica
In a quick internet search of mica’s occult/ceremonial uses I learned that powdered mica is still used during Hindu rituals in northern India. As a student of archaeology, geology, natural resources management, history and religion, I was intrigued to learn that there are layers of powdered mica a foot deep (30 centimeters) on the floor of the Pyramid of the Sun in Teotihuacan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_the_Sun#Recovered_artifacts
http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/intrteo.htm
It is relevant to note that Teotihuacan was the center of an ancient religion that worshiped the Plumed Serpent, a beautifully arrayed, very imposing, and extremely violent deity, whom the Aztecs referred to as Quetzalcoatl, but whose roots go back centuries earlier.
It should also be noted that many people connected to the New Age movement and paganism today are awaiting the return of Quetzalcoatl’s “divine” presence. Mormon’s have even tried to equate the serpent deity Quetzalcoatl with Jesus Christ.
Former LDS Church President John Taylor wrote:
“Some Mormons believe that Quetzalcoatl, who has been described as a white, bearded god who came from the sky and promised to return, was actually Jesus Christ. According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus visited the American natives after his resurrection.[14]
“The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. But the history of the former has been handed down to us through an impure Lamanitish source.” [15]
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl
So, let’s recap what we know: Worshipers at Bethel Church are being bathed in a common mineral that is/was used by pagan cultures for centuries to indicate a divine “presence”. This “divine” presence became so strong that the floor of an ancient pyramid erected by followers of a Serpent worshipping religion is covered with the stuff. Bill Johnson claims that this “glory cloud” is a manifestation of the “presence”. Anybody really think this cheap confetti “glory cloud” is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? Anybody really think that Jesus Christ has chosen to return to earth in powdered mica form?
C’mon Omar, Bethel’s manifestations are either an elaborate hoax perpetrated on the unwitting, or real evidence of some ancient supernatural, and deceptively evil “presence”.
Test the spirits, or suffer the consequences.
Steve…thanks for posting this video. It reminds me of what IWTT said…”nothing new under the sun”….first comes the Quetzalcoatl movement, then comes the “When Heaven Invades Earth” movement, and then comes Quetzalcoatl again… with the same gold dust. As I was watching the video, I thought about the words of John…
3 John 1:3
It gave me great joy when some believers came and testified about your faithfulness to the truth, telling how you continue to walk in it.
How do you measure faithfulness to the truth with respect to being caught up in this sort of awe and ecstasy for a bit of gold dust? This is not the gold of the Scriptures, which speaks about the refinement of our faith and character that is so important to the Jesus Christ we serve. What paltry bits of strange fire…being offered on this altar of worship….
We must be so near to the time of being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. With scorners of the “promise of his coming” and people all around us being caught up into temporal imaginings of the flesh…it just may be that this is the time Jesus referred to (Luke 12)
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?… 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Could the Lord be speaking of these very elitist leaders who have taken on drunken spirits in the midst of the Christian community and are making fun of other Christian leaders who will not take part in their idolatrous dance?
I’ve heard it suggested by a few lately, that Rosh Hashannah, the Feast of Trumpets, where the phrase that Jesus used in his commentary on the signs of the end of the age…“no one knows the day or the hour” holds true for this particular feast because of the elusive timing of the appearance of the New Moon. Is there a connection between this feast and the Lord’s reference to his coming?…I am aware that we are not Israel but the promises are not about Israel only, but about Christ…remember the Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled by the Promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit. The next event which is promised appears to be the Second Coming with the Resurrection of the Church Age just prior to that event.
It’s all very interesting…even if it is not Rosh Hashannah and not 2012, His coming is soon. And even though we’ve been saying it for years…the Word does not lie.
Watch and be ready.
Craig has laid out the scriptural and doctrinal errors, as have others, but such words are falling on deaf ears precisely because those who are being deceived are caught up with, consumed, blinded, by the signs and wonders. Or, if I may paraphrase what Carolyn wrote, these folks appear willing to exchange the truth of the gospel “for a bit of gold dust.”
Searching “gold dust manifestation” on Youtube returns around 357 video results. Searching “gold dust manifestation Bethel” returns 39 results.
This young man provides a typical testimonial:
We don’t need to see very many of these video “testimonials” before we start noticing several common threads. It is significant to note that the majority of these manifestations reported to be occurring at Bethel take place very late at night, usually around midnight, when only the most “faithful” (or most impressionable) remain in the audience.
During one of the Bethel videos, singer Jeremy Riddle butchers the Lord’s prayer in his song, “Our Father” by repeating incessantly:
“Let heaven come to earth. As it is in Heaven, let Heaven come.” .
Riddle leaves out the part that asks the Lord to, “forgive us our trespasses…..lead us not into temptation…and deliver us from evil”. Riddle is not praising the one true God who has the power and authority to forgive sin, but asking one that refuses to acknowledge sin to manifest it’s presence. And as the music builds to a thunderous crescendo, the “glory cloud” appears. Right on cue.
On my way home last evening I had the radio tuned to a Christian station. I was half listening to one upbeat song until the words “he’s in me like a roaring lion” penetrated my consciousness…wait a minute…who is a roaring lion? not Christ. The Bible says…Satan roams about as a roaring lion….I tell you…we need to stay awake to what we are listening to…
Watching this latest testimonial from Bethel, the seduction of these spirits is remarkable. Our only defence is the Word of God from the mouths of the tried and tested OT prophets and the mouths of the apostles who walked with Jesus. My heart is heavy for those who are in the midst of and have loved ones in the midst of this deception.
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”
Here’s a verse which stood out to me this morning and I have copied it in three different versions. It reminds me of the idolatry that God hates. A little bit of kundalini? A little bit of false prophecy? Songs that glorify lying spirits and doctrines of demons? God doesn’t mind, does he? Yes…he does mind. It does matter to him.
Hosea 9:10 (DRA)
10 I found Israel like grapes in the desert, I saw their fathers like the firstfruits of the fig tree in the top thereof: but they went in to Beelphegor, and alienated themselves to that confusion, and became abominable, as those things were, which they loved.
Hosea 9:10 (ERV)
Israel Is Ruined by Its Worship of Idols
10 “At the time I, the Lord, found Israel, they were like fresh grapes in the desert. They were like the first figs on a fig tree at the beginning of the season. But when they came to Baal Peor, they changed. So I had to cut them off like rotten fruit. They became like the terrible things that they loved.
Hosea 9:10 (ESV)
10 Like grapes in the wilderness,
I found Israel.
Like the first fruit on the fig tree
in its first season,
I saw your fathers.
But they came to Baal-peor
and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame,
and became detestable like the thing they loved.
Perhaps this is a word for someone today who is thinking that the Lord doesn’t mind mixture. They are thinking that not everything is perfect with Bethel or with the Fire Tunnels or the Deliverance Ministries, etc. but God is still among them. According to his Word…he is not. They are called to come out of the midst and be separate. Now is the time to repent of this delusion and come out of it.
2 Corinthians 6:16-18
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.
“And do not touch what is unclean;
And I will welcome you.
18 “And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.
Here’s a sad commentary from David Alan Black, NT Greek scholar, on our want of perfection from a pastor:
Within the kaleidoscope of my youthful memories in Hawaii is the image of a disabled pastor. His stroke had left him limping and speaking with a slur. In the place of what was once freshness and vigor was weakness and care. I cannot remember his name but I will never forget the love and compassion he showed a young man groping his way through middle school.
The church fired him because of his slurred speech. I will never forget that. It broke my innocent heart.
Had Becky’s [Black's wife] stroke produced permanent paralysis, would people have sidelined her? God would not have. He delights to display His greatest power in the midst of our human frailty. My pastor was doing just that when he was let go. Here he was, the perfect example of power-in-weakness, and the church sidelined him.
How was it that I could understand every word he said? Did I listen harder than others? Or did I love him more?
Honestly, sometimes I wish I could just throw my childhood kaleidoscope away.
Yes, in our weakness we/He is strong.
Why would this church fire a pastor who was being used of God?
Craig,
I read this entire discussion (as well as other articles on Bethel / Bill Johnson) and found it fascinating. You certainly know how to make your points. I find it distressing that so few choose to respond to your questions and instead entrench around a few basic talking points that skirt the issue entirely.
As a person struggling to find a clear path forward (out of a hyper-charismatic church background) and towards something founded in truth, I found the discussion very rewarding.
Kind Regards,
Nathan
Nathan,
I think that those who skirt the issue may well be suffering from cognitive dissonance, which I’ve discussed in two separate articles. If one is entrenched in this sort of teaching, one may likely resort to one of the conclusions below:
This is not unlike the way in which cultists work; i.e., making a series of orthodox statements and then concluding with an unorthodox sentence. The mind is prepared for a logical, orthodox conclusion so that when what seems to be an illogical or unorthodox conclusion is reached instead, the hearer/reader may reject it assuming he just did not hear or read it correctly or some other such reason. This is known as cognitive dissonance, the uncomfortable feeling in holding two conflicting views at once, which results in some sort of action to alleviate this feeling in this case, which may be either by 1) rejecting the negative thought that the conclusion is unorthodox or illogical while mentally inserting one’s own orthodox or logical conclusion instead; or, 2) just dismissing the conclusion as a misunderstanding on the reader/hearer’s part; or, 3) assuming the speaker simply misspoke.
By this I mean, they ‘hear’ Bill Johnson and choose to fill in what they wish, while they do not ‘hear’ me. It’s much less painful emotionally. No one likes to admit they’re wrong. This is especially true in matters of love and faith. One must make a substantial commitment in either case, therefore, it’s much easier emotionally to look past any ‘faults’. And, if one has an inclination that the other is ‘unfaithful’, one may concoct all sorts of excuses rather than face the truth. The way I see it, the ‘betrayal’ of false teachers/teachings is very much like the betrayal of a spouse. I believe that fits the Biblical metaphor (and metaphor only!) of Jehovah and His bride Israel / Jesus Christ and His bride the Church. [Notice "bride" is NOT capitalized!]
Excellent assessment. I have seen this so many times. Logic is useless against emotions. It really does take the Holy Spirit to change the heart/mind, to open blind eyes, unstop ears. desean