Kris Vallotton and the “Mantle of Jesus Christ” / Bill Johnson on Corporate Anointing

“…Not just the mantle of William Branham, how about the mantle of Jesus Christ?  That’s even a bigger one there…”

- Kris Vallotton, August 15, 2010

Kris Vallotton is Senior Associate Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California under Senior Pastor Bill Johnson.  The above quote of Vallotton follows an August 15, 2010 sermon of Bill Johnson titled, “The Real Jesus” (with complete context below).  Johnson had just spoken of his desire for a “corporate anointing” and Vallotton was making a few comments after this sermon.  The following YouTube video1 captures both Johnson and Vallotton (my understanding is this video is available at www.ibethel.tv if one registers at the site):

Here’s a portion of Johnson’s “word”:

“…Here’s what I’m believing for – I know it’s never happened; but, I know that it must before the end.  There must be, not just individuals – I’m thankful we have individuals that are rising up with such anointing, such strength, we have people scattered all over the planet right now that are just making a mess of things in all the right ways.  We are so encouraged.  But, what I’m believing for is a generation – a generation that’ll rise up with a corporate faith, a corporate anointing to press into realms because it’s my conviction that as much as God put on a William Branham, or a Kathryn Kuhlman, or a Wigglesworth, He’ll put far greater anointing on a company of people than He ever would on an individual.  To do that, there must be that corporate sense of, ‘we have to deal with the issue of obeying the rules of this kingdom to tap into the resources of this kingdom’…we cannot use the principles of this world and expect to tap into unlimited resource of the kingdom of God…” 2

After finishing his sermon and following up with some prayer, Johnson relinquishes the podium to Vallotton who goes on to reveal a purported conversation he had with God:

…so, I was in a prayer chapel and laying on the floor and I said, “God would you give me the mantle of William Branham?”  And, He said, “Well, how could I do that? If I did that it would destroy you.”  Then, I was layin’ there and it was like, the Lord asked ‘how could I do that’ so then I said – I waited about a few minutes – I was thinking about and I said, “Well, you could put the same mantle on a whole generation then we wouldn’t stand out from one another.” He said, “Alright, I’ll do that.”

Isn’t that awesome?  That’s what the Lord wants to do.  He wants to put the, He wants – not just the mantle of William Branham, but how about the mantle of Jesus Christ?  That’s even a bigger one there, and, uh, He wants to put it on every single person

So, wasn’t that just a great word that Bill brought us right there…” 3

I agree “that’s even a bigger one there” but not in the same way as Vallotton, I’m sure.  First, note that by the usage of the word “mantle” Vallotton is equating it with Johnson’s “anointing.”  Bill Hamon states these terms are similar in meaning if not synonymous.  He defines “anointing”:

“An in-depth study of the word anoint reveals that it was used to consecrate people to a particular position or ministry…In present-day application, this means the manifest presence of God upon a person to meet specific needs.

“…Mantle has a similar meaning.  If someone has prophesied that you have a prophetic mantle, it implies that you can minister in prophetic ministry…” 4

It follows then that the desire to “put the same mantle on a whole generation” would be the same as what Johnson calls a “corporate anointing.”  Further, this “mantle of Jesus Christ” would be akin to a “corporate Christ anointing.”  This is the heretical manifest sons of God (MSoG) teaching.  [For more on Bill Johnson and MSoG, see Bill Johnson’s ‘Born Again’ Jesus, Part II.]  The most extreme view of MSoG culminates in the “Birth of the Man-Child” teaching in which the “birth” of the corporate Christ is through the corporate Church body.  More on this in a bit.

William Marrion Branham’s Doctrine and Practices

Both Johnson and Vallotton promote William Branham.  Who was William Marrion Branham?  There’s already quite a bit of info available regarding Branham, so, briefly: he declared a number of foretelling prophecies which failed to come to pass, he denied the Trinity, and his doctrine included a belief in pyramidology and astrology in conjunction with the Bible.  He also taught the Serpent Seed doctrine in which the claim is that the serpent in the Garden of Eden mated with Eve resulting in a tainted lineage beginning with Cain and continuing to this day.5  Apparently emanating from this perversion of the The Fall is the following from Branham:

“Who does the world belong to?  The Devil.  Who controls it now?  The Devil.  Exactly right. The Devil controls the world…” 6

Yet Psalm 24:1 states, “The earth is the LORD’s and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.” [NIV 1984]  In the book of Job, Satan must receive God’s permission in order to test Job [Job 1:6-12 and 2:1-6].  And, in Job 38:33 is the following: “Do you know the laws of the heavens?  Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?” [NIV 1984]  God is sovereign over all.

 Branham’s son, Billy Paul Branham, reiterates his dad’s claim that he was the end-time spirit of Elijah:

 “The Word of the Lord has promised that He would send to the earth once again the spirit of Elijah in the form of that end-time messenger who is the angel to the Seventh Church Age in the these final closing days of time.  We firmly believe that this promise was fulfilled in the vindicated ministry of our precious brother, William Marrion Branham.” 7

Branham also taught that all Christian denominations lacked full revelation (Branham’s, that is), that denominations were the mark of the beast [Rev 13:16], and, thus, all those attending denominational churches were not really saved and are, in fact, antichrist.8  All congregants of denominations are actually the pale horse, death, of the fourth seal of Revelation [Rev 6:7-8] and will be killed off by the collective white horses made up of Jesus and the ‘church’ [Rev 19:14].9

In addition, Branham denied everlasting torment claiming the lake of fire was created and hence could not be eternal:

“…Anything that was created is not Eternal…That’s the reason there cannot be an Eternal hell.  If anybody ever tells you that you’re going to burn in an Eternal Hell, I want the Scripture for that…” 10

Well, here’s the Scripture: “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.  They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” [Rev 20:10, NIV 1984; see also Matthew 25:41-46, etc.]  It should be noted that Branham affirmed eternal life for the believer11 even though mankind is, of course, created thereby illustrating one of many contradictions in his teachings.  Some claim that Branham was orthodox in the beginning yet went astray toward the end of his life and ministry.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning.  If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us – eternal life.  26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. [I John 2:19, 24-26 NKJV]

Clearly, Branham was a false teacher propounding heresy.  Branham claimed – and others claimed as well – that he was a prophet and a healer; but, with such aberrant theology, why would we believe he was truly of God?  Is the sole criterion of a Christian the miraculous [see Matt 7:21-23]?  Aren’t we to worship in both spirit and truth [John 4:23]?  Given this, why would Bill Johnson promote Branham’s “anointing” and why would Kris Vallotton want his “mantle” as a “corporate mantle” / “corporate anointing?”  Would God really want to give anyone, let alone the entire church corporate, the “mantle” of one like William Branham?  Does God really talk to Kris Vallotton in this manner?

The “Mantle of Jesus Christ”

Setting aside for the moment the obvious blasphemy of even suggesting such a thing, what would it mean to receive the “mantle of Jesus Christ?”  The context of the message in the video/audio seems to be, in general, the “greater works” teaching prevalent at Bethel.  This may point to the Jesus Christ during the Incarnation as the model for this “mantle.”  If this is the case then, given that Jesus’ primary purpose was to lay down his life in propitiation for the collective sins of mankind, would this be a part of this “mantle” as well?

Or, does this “mantle” refer to the current glorified Christ and/or Jesus at the Second Coming, when He returns to complete all of God’s purposes including the final judgment and the consummation of the Kingdom of God?  This is certainly a possibility as will be made evident below.  Either way, however, or if this “mantle” includes Jesus both at the Incarnation and in His glorified state, this is blasphemy of the highest order as it equates mere men to God.  While Christians will receive a new glorified body in eternity, we will never become equal to Jesus Christ who was, is, and always will be God.

This phrase “the mantle of Jesus Christ” is not without precedence, however, as “The Mantle of Jesus” is the title of a ten year old article in which it is claimed the entire Church body will “operate in all the anointing that He [Jesus] did” as we “transition into the manifestations of the sons of God”:12

“…As we come into the unity of the faith the mantle of Christ will arise upon us, in ONE HEART and ONE MIND.  It is the will of Father for us to be in unity of heart and mind as this occurs the scripture will be fulfilled.

“…We will not come into the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, the perfect man until we stop causing separation of the mantle of Christ.  There still is a season where these callings and anointings will operate separate but soon as we grow in Christ and become ONE MIND and ONE HEART we will beat together as the BODY of CHRIST.” 13

Bill Johnson’s friends Bob Jones and/or Todd Bentley could not have been much more straight-forward than that in their respective manifest sons of God teachings. 

In addition, “the mantle of Jesus Christ” is mentioned by The Order of Christ~Sophia [Sophia means “wisdom”] as it’s included in their “Purposes” statement which is based on the “ancient Wisdom Teachings,” or, in other words, New Age / New Spirituality teachings.  Among other things, the site desires “that all may know the love of their Creator and the reality of their Divine Birth” and to demonstrate to all “the Christ Consciousness and the Way of Return to the Creator.”14   Part of “ancient Wisdom Teachings” is the belief that we can attain sonship as fully manifested sons of God here on earth.

The Manifestation of the Sons of God

As noted at the beginning of this article and evidenced by the immediately preceding section, this “corporate anointing” and “corporate mantle”  which Johnson and Vallotton refer to respectively in the context of the video/audio is tantamount to manifested sons of God (MSoG) doctrine.  To illustrate further, I’ll quote from a few other proponents of this teaching.  Bill Hamon explains this teaching in his 1997 book Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God [with foreword by C. Peter Wagner and endorsements by Oral Roberts, Cindy Jacobs among others] which come to the enlightened via so-called “present truths”15 purportedly by the Holy Spirit.  These manifested sons of God will emerge “in one generation”16 displaying all kinds of “signs, wonders and miracles”:17

“…God has predestined a certain quantity of members with Christlike qualities for the full functioning of His eternal Church…” 18

“The [New] Apostolic Reformation will cause believers to manifest the supernatural grace, gifts, and power of God.  The one-man show will be over…” 19

“God has released the Holy Spirit to bring His revelations and activation to the end-time Church.  This will bring forth the last generation of mortal people, unlimited power…dedicated to fulfilling God’s present-truth purposes.” 20

This will culminate in what Hamon terms the “Resurrection-Translation” (R-T) of the saints – his terminology and version of the Rapture:

“…We must realize that the Resurrection-Translation (R-T) of the saints does not take place because of a negative situation on earth.  It is a positive event that takes place to fulfill God’s timely purpose.

“…The positive purpose of the R-T is to enable the army of the Lord [Joel’s Army, or MSoG militant] to finalize the war against all evil. The army of the Lord will progress on in the war until they have accomplished all they can in their limited mortal bodies.  The R-T is for the purpose of immortalizing their bodies.  This will remove all the earthly limitations, thereby enabling the saints unlimited abilities.  They will be able to travel in all space realms of the heavenlies the same as Jesus and the angels do now.  They can move in and out of all dimensions of the natural and spiritual realms as Jesus did in His resurrected flesh-and-bone body.” 21

These fully manifested sons of God, or, Joel’s Army, will execute judgment on those who will not go along with their plans.  Hamon claims Joel 2:1-11 is a prophecy for this near future ‘army of God.’22 

God’s great end-time army is being prepared to execute God’s written Judgments with Christ’s victory and divine judgment decrees that have already been established in heaven.  The time is set when they will be administered and executed on earth through God’s saintly armyAll that is destined and needed will be activated during God’s restorational Army of the Lord  Movement…” 23  

Bob Jones and Todd Bentley are other proponents of the manifest sons of God teaching.  Here, in the following, Jones calls them the “New Breed.”  From August 08, 2008 [for full transcription, see “New Breed of Elected Seeds” section of Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference]:

“…The New Breed will be those that  are partaker of the divine nature.  As you begin to grow into the likeness of Christ you’re gonna begin to partake of the divine nature.  And, once you begin to grow up in that-a-way you’ll continue to mature until you look like Christ all over the world.  Jesus was one person.  Now get ready for Jesuses [sic; plural of “Jesus”] all over the world. 24 

Johnson, himself has referred to a “new breed of believer” resulting in “a reformation [that] will impact society on all fronts”25 in his book Face to Face With God.  Recall Johnson’s words from the above transcription, “I know it’s never happened; but, I know that it must before the end.” Here’s Bentley from May 28, 2008 at Lakeland making explicit references to what is called “birthing the man-child” – the ‘birthing’ of the “corporate Christ” which he states is a prerequisite for Jesus Christ’s return:

“‘Tonight is a crossing over and we have a moment,’ says the Lord, ‘where we can labor and travail until Christ is formed in you…’

“…I feel if we gave it a big push that we can literally form Christ – Christ in you.  I’m talking about a maturing of what God has placed on the inside of your spirit.  It’s gonna come out of the birth canal – it’s gonna come out of the womb – because there is a labor and there is a travailing that is going on in the spirit…

“…Under the anointing you make a declaration and it forms tonight…

“…We’re going to go back into travail right now until Christ is formed.  God promised a day where heaven and earth must retain Him until the restoration of all things.  Heaven will hold back the coming of Jesus Christ until sons and daughters come into maturity.  It’s called the Manifestation of the sons of God

“Heaven will hold back the Second Coming… A mature church manifests the glory of God.  A mature church manifests the Word of God in truth and power.  A mature church walks in holiness and character.  A mature church walks in miracles, signs, and wonders.

“I’m talking about a maturity tonight – and it’s being formed in you.   Let Christ be formed in maturity.  Let the full man, let the fullness of God come forth, and let the womb open tonight… and let there be a great birthing…” 26

Obviously, MSoG is not Biblical.  One of the proof-texts used is Romans 8:15-24.  And, as the Apostle Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 15:23-28, it is clear that Jesus is the one who puts “all His enemies under His feet” – not the Church.  Heaven will not “hold back the Second Coming” due to the failure of the Church to somehow prepare the way for Christ’s return.  If Jesus is waiting for a “perfected Church” as some erroneously teach (based on a faulty interpretation/proof-texting of Ephesians 5:27), He’ll be waiting for all eternity as we are inherently imperfect and will never be perfected this side of glory!

The New Age of the Manifested Sons of God

Constance Cumbey, in her 1985 book A Planned Deception illustrates how an adamant New Ager from a Unity Church in Kansas City recognized the Manifest Sons of God doctrine as taught in hyper-charismatic churches, or “Neo-Pentecostalism” as being New Age in nature [see also Ascended Master under “Glossary of New Age/Occult Terms and Concepts” and “Jesus of Nazareth / Master Jesus” in the “Christ” in the New Age article on this site]:

“Rev. Ernest Ramsey, an associate pastor at Unity’s Kansas City Founder’s Church, Unity on the Plaza, is an enthusiastic follower of the Alice Bailey and Benjamin Crème teachings.  In his Research Report #2, he tells of something he was led to by a spirit guide – what he terms ‘Neo-Pentecostalism.’  An aberrant branch of Pentecostalism, this is more commonly known as ‘Manifest Sons of God.’  That movement is also referred to as ‘Sonship’ or ‘Overcomers.’  Ramsey concludes based on even less evidence than I have personally collected that this is part of the New Age Movement.

“…The most interesting section of Ramsey’s report dealing with ‘Neopentecostalism.’  Ramsey spent a semester at one of the Neo-Pentecostal or Manifest Sons of God seminaries – in upstate New York ‘at a location surrounded by tall pine trees.’  Already familiar with the Alice Bailey writings, he was amazed to see that there was a branch of Pentecostalism that embraced the same teachings – albeit using different terminology.

“Like those seeking the ‘Age of Aquarius’ these people too were seeking a ‘New Age.’  Like the other New Agers, these people taught that ‘The Christ’ was an anointing – not necessarily one man.  They taught that Jesus was a pattern son who was to be a sign of something even greater to come – the ‘Manifestation of the Sons of God.’ They too believed the earth was to be cleansed of evil.  And chillingly like the other New Agers, they believed they were to be ‘God’s’ instruments to do such cleansing.  The New Agers believed they were gods.  The Manifest Sons of God likewise taught that if one accepted their ‘new revelation’ that they themselves would actually become Christ at the time of the unveiling or manifestation of the Sons of God….” 27

Theosophist/New Ager Alice A. Bailey (mentioned above by Cumbey), in her 1937 book From Bethlehem to Calvary, an occult rendering of the life and work of Jesus Christ, teaches the MSoG doctrine: 

“Let me state here briefly and succinctly, what it would appear really transpired when Christ died on the Cross.  He rendered up the form aspect and identified Himself as Man with the life aspect of Deity.  He thereby liberated us from the form side of life, of religion and of matter, and demonstrated to us the possibility of being in the world and yet not of the world,*living as souls, released from the trammels and limitations of the flesh, while yet walking on earth…” 28

The asterisk above denotes a reference in the original text to John 17:16 illustrating one of many instances of proof-texting.  Note that, according to Bailey, Christ did not die for our sins so much as He died for our own deification – becoming a model, a pattern to follow in attaining our own godhood.  The last part of the last sentence above is describing manifested sons of God with the claim that Jesus Christ had released us “from the trammels and limitations of the flesh, while yet walking on earth.” Bailey is also describing the dualistic Gnostic concept which recognizes the spiritual realm as the ‘real’ with the material realm as illusion and/or intrinsically evil.  This is also alluded to in Bill Hamon’s book Eternal Church in which he states: 

“…When the Church realizes its full sonship, its bodily redemption will cause a redemptive chain reaction throughout all of creation…” 29

This sounds not unlike the Kabbalistic doctrine of divine sparks which are within all matter requiring mankind to liberate and redeem them to perfection. 

In the following, Bailey is a bit more explicit in her manifested sons of God teaching:

“…Its form [orthodox religion] must be sacrificed upon the Cross of Christ in order that it may be resurrected into true and vital life for the meeting of people’s need.  Let a living Christ be its theme, and not a dying Saviour…Mankind can descend from the cross as Christ did, and enter into the kingdom of God, a living spirit.  The sons of God are ready to be manifested…” 30

The book goes on to quote Romans 8:16-24, just as those in hyper-charismatic churches do in promoting MSoG teaching.  Continuing with Bailey:

“Towards this glorification of God we are all moving.   Some of the sons of men have already achieved, through the realisation of their divinity.” 31

In addition to the ability to travel between the physical and spiritual realms at will, other characteristics of the fully manifested son of God are an impossibility to sin,32 being group conscious33 (the recognition of the imperative of unity), and a cessation of ongoing reincarnations.34 In the following, Bailey equates the attainment of sonship with entrance into the Kingdom of God and describes how Christ’s Incarnation furthered this possibility:

“…Christ’s incarnation, apart from its historical value, and apart from the keynote which He sounded, marked the closing of a great cosmic cycle, but it marked also the opening of that door into the kingdom which had opened only occasionally theretofore, in order to permit the entrance of those sons of God who had triumphed over matter.  After the advent of Christ, the door stood wide open for all time, and the kingdom of God began to form on Earth…” 35

This “door into the kingdom” is also known as a “portal” or “veil.”  The initiate “triumphs over matter” through meditation i.e., seeking the ‘presence of God,’ which brings increasingly deeper levels of “Christ consciousness,” or, in reality, increasing soul-control/possession. [See “Christ Consciousness” section of “Christ” in the New Age.]  Bailey makes it clear that the ultimate purpose is to build the kingdom now and this purpose can only be accomplished by both the individual and the entire human race attaining divinity.

“It is time that the Church woke up to its true mission, which is to materialise the kingdom of God on earth, today, here and now…” 36

“This divinity in man must be brought to the birth, both in the individual and in the [human] race, and thus can the kingdom of God on earth be brought into being.” 37

Obviously, this is not the true Biblical Kingdom of God which should make the reader wonder just which kingdom Dominionists/Restorationists/Kingdom Now adherents are seeking to build.  [See Fifth Kingdom in Nature and Kingdom of God under “Glossary of New Age/Occult Terms and Concepts” section of “Christ” in the New Age.]

Which Kingdom?

The late Earl Paulk made a distinction between the “Gospel” and the “Gospel of the Kingdom” in a glossary near the end of his 1984 book Ultimate KingdomHere are the two definitions respectively:

Gospel: The good news of God’s redemption to man. [Luke 4:18, 9:6; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 6:15]

Gospel of the Kingdom: The good news principles of daily life taught by Jesus that the Church must demonstrate as a witness to the world in order to return the rule of the earth to God.  [Matthew 4:23, 9:35, 24:14] 38

Notice again how it’s the Church which must “return the rule of the earth to God” which is, as already noted above, unbiblical.  Bill Johnson, in his book When Heaven Invades Earth also differentiates between the “Gospel” and the “Gospel of the Kingdom”:

“…the company of people who have joined this quest for an authentic gospel –  the gospel of the kingdom – is increasing.” 39

There is also a teaching in the New Age in which when “Christ” – actually the antichrist – ‘reappears’ (the belief is He never left the earth), He will have the ability to manifest Himself in many bodies at one time not unlike the “Birth of the Man-Child”40 teaching of MSoG.

“The Christ, when He comes into incarnation, will most likely project himself into many parts and be where he wants to be. This is called the Law of Divisibility, a term used in Agni Yoga that means a highly developed spirit—one who is able to contact, simultaneously, various people in various locations. For example, a Master can be seen in various groups at the same time. He can even be in different planes serving and teaching on different levels to meet various needs of the people. He can do different jobs in different places at one time. He impresses the space with his images, and so forth.” 41

Paulk also defines “Man Child” in his glossary as “Jesus Christ” (while referencing Revelation 12:5, 13).42  Francis Frangipane, in his book In the Presence of God, espouses this “Birth of the Man-Child” doctrine implicitly in a chapter titled “The Virgin Shall Be with Child”:

“Secure this thought in your mind: when the Spirit of Christ comes into the physical world, He must enter through a physical body…When Christ first entered our world as a child, it was Mary whom God chose to give Christ birth.  Mary’s life symbolized the qualities the Church must possess to walk in the fullness of Christ…[God is preparing us] as He did Mary to give birth to the ministry of His Son.  Even now, in the spiritual womb of the virgin Church, the holy purpose of Christ is growing, awaiting maturity; ready to be born in power in the timing of God…the virgin church is ‘in labour and in pain to give birth (Rev 12:1-2)…even now, hell trembles and the heavens watch in awe, for I say to you, once again, the virgin is with child.  Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God.  Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full stature of its Head, the Lord Jesus.  Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall rise.” 43

As evidenced by the title of his 1985 book Held in the Heavens Until… Paulk believes we either hinder or hasten Christ’s return.  Paulk made no bones about his belief in MSoG as he writes:

“…When I say, ‘Act like a god,’ I can hear people saying, ‘There he goes with the theory of the manifest sons of God.’  Forget about theories!  Forget about doctrine!  Just go back to the simple Word of God!  We are ‘little gods,’ whether we admit it or not…” 44

Paulk goes further by explaining that we are an “ongoing incarnation of Christ”:

“…Jesus was the firstfruit of God’s incarnation, a man living out God’s perfect will.  Now He says, “…My people will bring forth life as they become the ‘incarnate Word’ on planet Earth.”  …the Church is the ‘ongoing expression’ of God.” 45

 “All things have been given to us, even to the point of allowing us to share the divine nature of Jesus.  Sharing His nature is a definition of the ongoing incarnation of God on the earth.  ‘Christ in us, the hope of glory.’  His inheritance is already ours.” 46

 “…The Seed, Jesus Christ, multiplied Himself by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell His followers

“…the Holy Spirit within us makes us become the incarnation of God.  The seed begins to grow within individuals, and grows corporately into a tremendous church…” 47

Bill Hamon wrote regarding Paulk on the Rapture that his view “to most Evangelicals and Pentecostals [is] a denial of the rapture bordering on heresy”:

“He [Paulk] taught that the departed saints would be resurrected and the living saints would be translated in the twinkling of an eye, but this was not for the purpose of leaving the earth.  Rather, it was for establishing God’s divine order for the human race and Christ’s rulership over all the earth.” 48 

Please note this is essentially what Hamon teaches (see above).  Even though Hamon does not specifically mention the already departed saints, it is inferred by the “Resurrection” part of his “Resurrection-Translation” doctrine for “resurrection” can only refer to the deceased.  While I may not  have found what Hamon refers to explicitly regarding Paulk (if I do find something more definitive, I’ll update this portion), here’s Paulk, once again, from Held in the Heavens Until… inferring this as he continues in his line of thought from above [this may well be the quote Hamon had in mind]:

“…‘Christ in us’ is God’s continuing incarnation…The Church is Christ’s body, the incarnation of Christ today.  The mystery which has been hidden but is now revealed to His saints is ‘Christ in you, the hope of glory.’  The mystery of this generation is Christ in us.  We never understood that mystery fully.  We pray to a ‘God beyond the clouds in heavenly places’ when Christ is in us.  The hope of glory is not in the heavenlies – the ‘hope of the heavenlies’ is on earthEvery departed saint is gathered, waiting to see how many of us are going to receive understanding and bring Christ from the heavenliesThey are waiting for total redemption as we are.

“If God’s love is going to be manifested on planet earth, who is going to demonstrate it?  Christ in us, the hope of glory.  God has no other place to show His love except through His body.” 49

I do believe God is quite capable of displaying His love apart from the Church body.

Concluding Remarks

This article has shown that a “corporate Christ mantle” or “corporate Christ anointing” is akin to Manifest Sons of God teaching.  Further, the logical conclusion to this teaching in most quarters is an establishment of the “Kingdom of God” through these manifested sons.  These doctrines have a direct parallel to New Age teachings.  Given that MSoG along with its associated doctrines are not Biblical, we must ask ourselves: Which Kingdom is Johnson, Vallotton, Hamon, Jones, Bentley, Frangipane, (and the late Paulk), et al actually attempting to establish?

Endnotes:

1“ChasingRiver” The Real Jesus – Part 4 – by Bill Johnson.  <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHcRI60j0HI&feature=related>; as accessed 07/03/11
2 “ChasingRiver” 0:36 – 1:30, emphasis added; as accessed 07/03/11
3 “ChasingRiver” 7:28 – 8:10, emphasis added; as accessed 07/03/11
4 Hamon, Bill. Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God. 1997 (2nd printing), Destiny Image “We Publish the Prophets”, Shippensburg, PA; p 282. Bolding in original, underlining added.
5 Branham, William Marrion. The Revelation of the Seven Seals. 1993, Voice of God, Jeffersonville, IA; pp 425-27.  From sermon tapes of March 17-25, 1963.
6 Branham; p 426
7 Branham; introduction
8 Branham; pp 259, 249-95
9 Branham; pp 281, 249-95
10 Branham; p 435
11 Branham; p 436
12 Jesus “R” Ministries. “The Mantle of Jesus” <http://www.jesusrministries.org/Mantle%20of%20Jesus.htm>; par 2, 3; as accessed 07/03/11
13 Jesus “R” Ministries; par 3, 5.  Emphasis added.  Also note the very last paragraph uses Joel 2:1-18 presumably for the Latter Rain version of Joel’s Army as well as the IHOP version.
14 Order of Christ~Sophia (Centers of Light) “Purposes” <http://www.orderofchristsophia.org/OCS_purposes.html>; points 3, 6, 5, 6 respectively; as accessed 07/03/11
15 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 13
16 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 11
17 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 13
18 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 11
19 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 13
20 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 18
21 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; pp 264-65
22 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; pp 255-56
23 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets; p 252
24 MorningStar Ministries, Media Store, VS19-000D. “Todd Bentley Healing and Impartation Service, 08-08-08” DVD.  A truncated version is on Jones’ site: <http://bobjonesnew.unionactive.com/Docs/Words%20of%202008/2008-09-The_New_Breed.htm>
25 Johnson, Bill. Face to Face with God. 2007; Charisma House, Lake Mary, FL; p 139. Emphasis added.
26 Bentley, Todd. Monologue from Lakeland Revival, Day 57 May 28, 2008. Originally accessed here: <http://injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=list&GroupID-WB0062AX> access date unknown, website link no longer valid.
27 Cumbey, Constance. A Planned Deception: the Staging of a New Age “Messiah”. 1985; Point Publishers, East Detroit, MI; pp 171-172. Emphasis added.  Also available as a free download: <https://public.me.com/cumbey> “A PLANNED…ULL BOOK.pdf”   pp 78-9
28 Bailey, Alice A.  From Bethlehem to Calvary. Copyright 1937 by Alice A. Bailey, renewed 1957 by Foster Bailey; Lucis, NY, 4th paperback edition, 1989; Fort Orange Press, Inc., Albany, New York; p 187. Emphasis added.
29 Hamon, Bill. Eternal Church. 1981 (2003 revised ed), Christian International, Santa Rosa Beach, FL; pp 359-60
30 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 189. Emphasis added.
31 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 189. As per original (sentence fragment in orig.).  Emphasis added.
32 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 202
33 Bailey, Alice A. The Rays and the Initiations. 1960 Lucis, NY, 2nd paperback ed, 1976, Fort Orange Press, Inc., Albany, New York; p 694
34 Bailey, Rays; p 697
35 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 184
36 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 210
37 Bailey. Bethlehem; p 50
38 Paulk, Earl. Ultimate Kingdom. 1984, K Dimension Publishers, Atlanta, GA; p 335
39 Johnson, Bill When Heaven Invades Earth. 2003; Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 27. Emphasis in original.
40 Booth, Tricia (formerly Tillin), The Birthpangs of a New Age. “The Birth of the Manchild”  <http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/latterrain/manchild.html>; as accessed 07/03/11
41 World Service Intergroup website. Dubois, J.D. “The Christ, His Reappearance, and the Avatar of Synthesis” <http://www.worldserviceintergroup.net/#/christ-reappearance/4543145171>; par 5; as accessed 07/03/11
42 Paulk. Ultimate. p 337
43 Frangipane, Francis. In the Presence of God. 1994, New Wine Press, UK; pp 153-57 as cited in Booth, Tricia “The Birth of the Manchild”. Emphasis added
44 Paulk, Earl. Held in the Heavens Until…: God’s Strategy for Planet Earth. 1985, K Dimension Publishers, Atlanta, GA; p 171. Emphasis added.
45 Paulk. Heavens. p 163.  Emphasis added.
46 Paulk. Heavens. p 197.  Emphasis added.
47 Paulk. Heavens. p 227.  Emphasis added.
48 Hamon. Apostles, Prophets. p 199
49 Paulk. Heavens. p 229.  Emphasis added.

83 Responses to Kris Vallotton and the “Mantle of Jesus Christ” / Bill Johnson on Corporate Anointing

  1. Sylvia says:

    “Give us the mantle of William Branham”…..SAYS IT ALL!

    Is it just me or does he look positively evil in this youtube delivery? Watching him gave me the creeps. Everyone I know says BJ usually comes over brilliantly which is how he manages to deceive so adequately, and I agree, but here he looks and sounds exactly what he is, a manipulator.
    Good find Craig as always, I seriously don’t know how you manage to dig up so much info, but be assured you’re gaining the attention, and turning the heads of genuine ‘seekers after truth’.
    Happy 4th July :)

  2. Craig says:

    Sylvia,

    One of the benefits to WordPress sites (don’t know about others like it) is that the site stats show which search criteria individuals use to arrive at the site. That is how I found this particular video as someone had searched “bill johnson real jesus part 5.” While there is no part 5, this led me to part 4 and this resultant post.

    And, clearly, I receive the help of the Holy Spirit in this. I “stumbled upon” many of the things in the article such as Hamon’s definition of “anointing” and “mantle” which led me to find Paulk’s definitions as shown in the article. I found addtional Alice Bailey MSoG quotes while searching for something entirely different about a month ago and subsequently put a “Post-It” note on my computer screen for an undetermined future use. Well, herein it was utilized! There are many other examples such as finding the Branham book here at a local used book store about 2 months ago and how I found some of the passages in it — I did not actually read the book; I just skimmed through it, then read interesting sections.

    Johnson himself had referred to Branham as shown in the “Library Mandate” post here; so, I thought it would be good to describe a bit about who Branham was in this article. Hopefully, readers who are unfamiliar with him will raise their eyebrows.

    I’ve watched quite a bit of Bill Johnson; and, I must admit he’s either an incredibly good actor who is able to show tender emotion at will or he really believes all this stuff. We have to keep in mind there are powerful spirits involved in this as we war not with flesh and blood [Eph 6:12]. There is no doubt the man is deceived; but, is he a deceived deceiver?

    I’ve been pondering Matthew 7:15-23 quite a bit regarding the “wolves in sheeps clothing.” While we might be able to spot them “by their fruit,” I’m not so sure they recognize themselves as wolves. I state that because of 1) their response to Jesus in v 22 ["did we not...?"] which would be the height of arrogance to attempt to deceive even God; and, 2) 2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12 as it’s God Himself who sends the strong delusion to those “who refuse to love the truth.”

    Having said that, I feel that there may well be some who do know what they’re doing and are quite wittingly deceiving. I just don’t know if I/we could tell the difference. I’m also thinking of the wheat and the tares [Matthew 13:24-30]. I suppose we’ll know for sure at the harvest!

    Happy 4th to you and yours as well! :-)

  3. Sylvia says:

    Craig you said > “I’ve watched quite a bit of Bill Johnson; and, I must admit he’s either an incredibly good actor who is able to show tender emotion at will or he really believes all this stuff.” <

    Well that is the 64,000 dollar question, and is very frightening, which is why we need to stop listening to these men. Rather, glean everything directly from God's word which is infallible, and if 'stuff like this' isn't biblical we won't see it so can't be taken in by it.

    Where oh where in scripture does God even hint that "a corporate faith, a corporate anointing to press into realms blah blah blah…… MUST COME BEFORE THE END" ? Actually The Word shouts out that It's a remnant church that will see 'the glory of the Lord' and it is persecution and sorrow for the church that…..MUST COME BEFORE THE END.

    If a simple soul such as I can absorb the truth, how come these so called 'giants in the faith' are so badly off the mark?
    It leads me to suspect that they know full well that they are deceiving, by taking texts out of context and building false doctrine around them. They are fools. Rev 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone ADDS TO them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19: and if anyone TAKES AWAY FROM the words of the book of this prophesy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the Holy city which are described in this book.

    Bill Johnson and his ilk are truly 'playing with fire' with all their adding and taking away, and it isn't the fire I want anything to do with.

  4. peacebringer says:

    Nice article Craig with much to think about. Will have to examine the article later. The main areas to really think more deeply on are the biblical concepts of being empowered by God and the true concept of authority of believer.

  5. Craig says:

    Sylvia,

    I will say this: I’ve not seen an adequate explanation for the following posts which illustrate a contradiction of facts regarding the timing of Jim Goll’s word and the acquisition of the Roberts library. Goll’s “word” is presented as if it’s prophesying a future event, the acquisition of the library, while a previous Bill Johnson blog post indicates the library was actually acquired earlier:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/18/bill-johnsons-library-mandate/

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/18/update-bill-johnsons-library-mandate/

    I would like to see an adequate explanation of this. Here’s a brief chronology:

    1) Bill Johnson purchases Roberts Liardon’s library/museum some time in 2008 as evidenced by his February 2, 2009 blog post here: http://www.bjm.org/blog/9/anointings-come-from-honor.html. This was apparently a part of the “Expansion Mandate.” I’m not clear on when this “Expansion Mandate” was ‘mandated.’

    2) Johnson receives a “prophetic word” from James Goll on September 17, 2009 about receiving in the future “something of a library inheritance by somebody with the name ‘Roberts’” yet it was not “just Oral Roberts” but another ‘Roberts.’ Logic would seem to indicate this “Roberts” was Roberts Liardon; and, at this point Johnson already had this library/museum.

    3) Johnson uploads a video (shown in Bill Johnson’s Library Mandate post) explaining the purposes of this library/museum (a “direct from headquarters” mandate) and plays within this video on December 9th or 10th of 2010 (depending on how you count the days) a recording of Goll’s “word” which came in a “dream” . It is proclaimed as a “prophetic word,” as “destiny,” to the audience he was speaking to (presumably BSSM). In the video, it appears that the point is that Goll was prophesying about a future inheritance of a “large library” by someone with the name “Roberts” besides Oral Roberts. Johnson goes on about Liardon’s library/museum making it appear as if this was the subject of the “Roberts” in Goll’s “word.”

    Something is definitely amiss. This points to a potential credibility issue. Again, I would like to see how all the above can be fully reconciled. Can anyone shed light on this?

    If anyone would to discuss the “library mandate” and its apparent contradictiion as laid out above, please do so on one those threads rather than the Vallotton/Johnson post here.

  6. Craig says:

    And, speaking of anointings and mantles, here’s an interesting post on Beyond Grace:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/07/bill-johnson-and-john-crowders-leaven.html

  7. Craig says:

    Compare the following passage from the article to the quotes from Barbara Marx Hubbard (1984 US Vice Presidential candidate and staunch New Ager) as regards the pale horse of Revelation 6:7-8:

    Branham also taught that all Christian denominations lacked full revelation (Branham’s, that is), that denominations were the mark of the beast [Rev 13:16], and, thus, all those attending denominational churches were not really saved and are, in fact, antichrist.8 All congregants of denominations are actually the pale horse, death, of the fourth seal of Revelation [Rev 6:7-8] and will be killed off by the collective white horses made up of Jesus and the ‘church’ [Rev 19:14].9

    Now, here’s Marx Hubbard:

    “This act is as horrible as killing a cancer cell. It must be done for the sake of the future of the whole. So be it; be prepared for the selection process which is now beginning. We, the elders, have been patiently waiting until the very last moment before the quantum transformation, to take action to cut out this corrupted and corrupting element in the body of humanity. It is like watching a cancer grow; something must be done before the whole body is destroyed…. The destructive one fourth must be eliminated from the social body…We are in charge of God’s selection process for planet Earth. He selects, we destroy. We are the riders of the pale horse, death… We do this for the sake of the world.” [Barbara Marx Hubbard Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, 1980]

    Are they (NAR and New Agers) reading from similar playbooks?

  8. Wow, great blog! You do the work that I could only dream of doing, so, thanks! I will be posting a link to this page on my site.

  9. Craig says:

    HT,

    Thanks for your kind words! :-)

    There will be a future post on Vallotton/Johnson which may prove even more enlightening than this one.

  10. Craig says:

    I wanted to add some additional commentary on William Branham:

    In Kurt Koch’s book Occult A-B-C is the following quote of William Branham:

    “There are disturbing powers here. I can do nothing.”

    According to Koch, this was because Christians in audience were praying that if Branham’s powers were of God that He would bless and use Branham; however, if his powers were not then to hinder him instead.

  11. Mark G. Judy says:

    I am aware, from postings elsewhere, that—-in keeping with Bethel’s obsession with dead men’s “anointings”—-Bill Johnson & others in his circus, I mean, CIRCLE, of influence, have spent ‘quality’ time laying prostrate on the gravesites of prominent, deceased evangelists (A.A. Allen, John G. Lake, Aimee Semple McPherson, etc.), as well as stating that they have spoken to these deceased individuals……and in conference meetings, actually telling others that such a thing is not only possible, but acceptable to God, even equating it with “being mature in the spirit”. What I would like is to be able to find reputable sources that have documented this.

  12. Craig says:

    Mark,

    In the link I provided to Bill’s Beyond Grace article above, note that Bill posts a Facebook conversation in which Johnson unabashedly defends John Crowder and Ben Dunn. Also, there’s a response from a LV area “pastor” who is apparently sympathetic to this and doesn’t deny any of it.

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/07/bill-johnson-and-john-crowders-leaven.html

    I had heard of this stuff before. I feel certain Bill Fawcett would not post something if he didn’t have some sort of substantiation; so, I would suggest asking him via comment how he knows those are BSSM students in the photos.

    Benny Hinn claimed to go to Kathryn Kulman’s gravesite to receive her “anointing.” And, if I remember correctly Johnson promotes Hinn in one of his books. Necromancy is not acceptable to God, of course.

  13. Craig says:

    Speaking of Frangipane and his “birthing the Man-Child” teaching, his recent “Prophetic Insight” at Charisma is a veiled version of this teaching:

    http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/prophetic-insight/32439-surrender-of-the-vision-keeper

  14. Craig says:

    Since I’ve a feeling my comments will eventually get deleted, following are two comments I posted in response to the above heretical “Prophetic Insight”:

    comment #3:

    This is a veiled version of Frangipane’s ‘Birth of the Man-Child’ teaching he spoke of in his book “In the Presence of God” on New Wine Press in 1994 in a chapter titled “The Virgin Shall Be With Child”. The ‘virgin’ is the elite members of the ‘church’ who will ‘birth’ “Jesus”. The phrased used is roughly, “Jesus will come through the church before he comes to the church”. It’s part of the Manifest Sons of God teaching. [Jan 31, 21:44]

    comment #6:

    S. Wells,

    I don’t recall Jesus playing nice with the Pharisees over their extra-biblical oral traditions and the way they elevated themselves while subjugating others. You and other readers here may wish to read Jude 3-4 and then all the other NT Scriptures which speak of false teachers. We do not find common ground (we watch out for the ‘leaven’), we separate from them!

    But, yes, we are to pray for our enemies – enemies of the Cross of Jesus Christ which include those who propound the Manifest Sons of God heresy. You and other readers here would do well to study the MSoG heresy and its related teachings. [Feb 1, 6:39am]

    Though I’m not surprised, it really both angers and saddens me 1) that Charisma would continue posting this kind of thing; and, 2) that readers would devour this spiritual poision.

  15. Craig says:

    Just in case my comments get deleted – Frangipane commented at Charisma and I responded:

    – #12 Craig, this is Francis. Which part of the quote from my book did you find unscriptural? The part about us becoming a pure virgin ( 2 Cor. 11:2)? Or being in travail to see Christ formed in His body (Gal 4:19)? Perhaps you don’t realize that, in this age, we are to grow in “the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Eph 4). Our destiny is nothing less than the fullness of Christ. Are we there yet? No. So my call to Christians is to focus on conformity to Jesus Christ (Phil 3). Breaking into functional, full stature Christlikenss is not manifest sons doctrine, its New Testament Christianity. [2012-02-01 21:53]

    – #13 Francis, Rev 12:1-2 refers to an event already passed – the virgin Mary ‘was’ with child and gave birth to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We, the church will not give birth again to Christ. The “Body of Christ” has already come forth in the form of each and every Holy Spirit indwelt believer past and present. You’re propounding New Age ideology as in this quote, “The Christ, when He comes into incarnation, will most likely project himself into many parts and be where he wants to be. This is called the Law of Divisibility, a term used in Agni Yoga that means a highly developed spirit—one who is able to contact, simultaneously, various people in various locations.” [2012-02-02 06:28]

    – #14 Francis, with 1 Cor 11:2 you’ve literalized a metaphor and please note in context it’s the Apostle Paul who presents us to Christ viewing himself as the father giving away his bride, obviously making this passage metaphorical. There’s a Jewish idiom in which “If one teaches the son of his neighbor the law, the Scripture reckons this the same as though he had begotten him.” (from Vincent’s Word Studies in the NT). This explains Paul’s meaning also in Galatians 4:19.

    Yet, Gal 4:19 is one consistently proof-texted for the New Breed/man-child doctrine as Bob Jones did on 08/08/08 at MorningStar. [2012-02-02 06:51]

  16. Craig says:

    Heres’ one more comment I made:

    – #15 Francis, Ephesians 4:13 is one of many verses in which we recognise the “already but not yet” as Gordon Fee and Douglas Stewart point out in their book “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth”. This is inaugurated eschatology not realized eschatology. We are not made perfect until the other side of glory [Rev 19:7-8 taken in its complete context]. Andrew T. Lincoln notes this “‘already’ and the ‘not yet’” in his commentary on Ephesians (Word Biblical Commentary, Word, 1990; p 256) regarding 4:13. [2012-02-02 07:26]

  17. Craig says:

    More comments:

    – #18 Craig, you think Rev 12 refers to Mary? Hmm. Hadn’t heard that in a long time. The final verses of Rev 12 speak of this same woman being given “the wings of the great eagle” to flee to a wilderness for 3.5 years; the dragon then leaves her to “make war with . . . her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” You think this was Mary and it occurred already? Who were her other children? There are many opinions on the woman of Rev 12. Some say Israel; others, the church, and others the elect both Jew and Gentile. My point: the imagery of being pregnant with a promise from God is available to us in the Scriptures. Its not New Age, its Bible. [2012-02-02 09:00]

    – #19 I’ll come back to Rev 12 in a bit; but, in the meantime I must ask for your comment(s) regarding my response to your query re: 1 Cor 11:2, Gal 4:19, and Epe 4:13. The eschatology was inaugurated with Jesus’ first coming but will not reach consummation until His 2nd coming. [2012-02-02 09:05]

    – #20 Craig, I have never said nor taught that we will become perfect in this age (or never die, etc) — but we can become mature. Our pattern is Jesus. God’s word tells us we are to “grow in all aspects unto Him who is the head, even Christ.” Don’t you want to see more of His power and character in your life? I know I do. I’m not sitting back yawning as I read God’s promises, I’m contending earnestly for the faith. Eph 4 calls us to believe the “stature that belongs to the fulness of Christ” is attainable. This not New Age theology; its Bible. To believe otherwise is unbelief. [2012-02-02 09:11]

    – #21 Francis, your quote in the 1994 book, “…the virgin church is ‘in labour and in pain to give birth (Rev 12:1-2)…” was specifically for the “virgin church” as you call it and references the church as giving birth in Rev 12:1-2. This is not correct as this Scripture is referencing Joseph’s dream (Gen 37:9, the 12 stars – the 12 tribes) which is a prophetic illusion to Jesus’ first coming. That these verses refer to Jesus is made evident in verse 5, “She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne” [NIV 1984].
    Will you be responding to my comments 14, 15 & 16 as you’ve asked of me in 12? [2012-02-02 09:49]

  18. Craig says:

    One more:

    #22 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 10:02
    Francis, regarding your comment #20. Do you believe Jesus was perfect? I sure do. If you agree, then don’t you see that teaching that we will actually attain to the fulness of Christ this side of glory is tantamount to teaching that we will be perfect?

  19. Craig says:

    Here is more of the discussion:

    #23 Tricia Tillin 2012-02-02 10:20
    Craig, thanks for your posts – they are straight, honest, biblical and true! Francis, it seems to me from your replies (and article) that you are continually dodging the issue and being coy about what you actually mean. I’ve read your books and articles and you DO propose quite literally the “birth of the christ” from the womb of the Church – here on earth – and “fullness” that goes FAR beyond what the scriptures intended. Since you believe this, why not openly admit to it?

    #24 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 10:22
    Craig, you haven’t answered my questions on Rev 12 concerning the woman. The rest of Rev 12 describes certain other facts about the woman, which you are ignoring. Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, have other “children” that will be persecuted by the dragon, as this chapter says? Did she flee into the wilderness for 3.5 years? Did she ever have the wings of an eagle given to her? You see, this can’t be Mary in the beginning of the chapter if its obviously not Mary at the end.

    #25 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 10:36
    Francis, You’ve asked me to show you how the verses you cited are unscriptural. I showed you how they were in fact not Scriptural. So, I’m dodging you? But, I’ll answer your Rev 12 further inquiry on the understanding you’ll come back to mine which you’ve specifically asked me to address.

    As we know there are differing views on eschatology; however, it’s very plain that Rev 12:1-5 is referring to Jesus’ 1st coming. As to the rest of the chapter, it’s not wise to make a whole doctrine from one part of Scripture which is conceded as being open to different interpretations.

    Now about those other verses you asked me about which I’ve answered…

    #26 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 10:37
    Tricia, hi. You said, “you DO propose quite literally the “birth of the christ” from the womb of the Church – here on earth – and “fullness” that goes FAR beyond what the scriptures intended. Since you believe this, why not openly admit to it?”

    I believe there is a fullness that goes FAR beyond the current traditions of the church, but not beyond the Scriptures. Don’t you feel there is more? are you content where you are? When I offer supporting verses, you and Craig empty the verse of it depth. You interpret it to be less than is stated. Jesus never rebuked His disciples saying “woe to you of too much faith.” The problem is always too little faith, too little expectation.

  20. Craig says:

    #27 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 10:51
    Craig, when I quote Paul concerning the church being a virgin, I know Paul is speaking metaphorically, just as I am speaking metaphorically about the church being “pregnant” or “giving birth.” As far as perfection goes, the Greek word refers to maturity or completeness. I totally agree with you that Jesus was/is perfect and that we are not, nor will we be in this life. But we can be mature. We can be like Him. We can draw from His example and live our lives in conformity to His, don’t you agree?

    I’m short on time here, so I may need to return to our conversation tomorrow. Thanks for responding Craig. Btw, I’d like to read the book you mentioned earlier.

    #28 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 10:56
    This is from the Amplified Bible. It represents my hope in Christ. Its not New Age or manifest sons, its God’s promise in Eph 3:19.

    [That you may really come] to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!

    #29 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 11:06
    I’ll have to defer this discussion myself. Are you referring to the Fee/Stewart “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth”? If so, I highly recommend it to all. In addition, I highly recommend Fee’s commentary on 1 Corinthians (he’s not a cessationist).

    Christlikeness is our goal; but, we do realize that its full consummation is not attained in this life. Again, “the already but not yet” in the Fee/Stewart book.

    However, like Tricia, I’ve read your material and did teach perfection in this lifetime. [cont]

    #30 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 11:08
    [cont] Here’s the last part of the quote from your ’94 book: “Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God. Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full stature of its Head, the Lord Jesus. Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall rise.”

    This is man-child/Manifested Sons of God/Corporate Christ teaching plain and simple.

    #31 Hobbit 2012-02-02 11:25
    The “woman” in Revelation 12 could well be a reference to national Israel, which might make more sense of the material.

    Francis – good to see you engage with the readers here, as few of the contributors to Charismamag do so – but you really, really, need to take a stand against MSOG/man-child type teachings. I agree that the church is called to maturity – always has been, always will – but this needs to be read alongside 2 Ti4, and its talk of massive apostasy in the last days. While these two things are not mutually exclusive, we really must show more caution about ‘every wind of doctrine’ than we have!

    #32 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 11:32
    Craig, every aspect of that quote can be backed up with numerous Scriptures. Its not new age, its Eph 3:19 Amp, Rev 19:17, Gal. 2:22, II Cor 4:10, Eph 5:27; etc. Of course, I do not believe we will reach sinless perfection, but I didn’t say that in the quote. I agree that there will be MUCH greater fulfillment when the Lord comes.

    But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

    #33 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 11:45
    Francis, We are not raised to the FULL stature of Christ (Head) this side of glory. Full stature = exactly the same as in perfection, true absolute Christlikeness. This is how your quote reads and I’ve seen this quote by others referenced in the same way. The teaching is such that Jesus CAN’T (sorry, not shouting, just don’t know how to bold/italicize) return until the church “Body” (capitalized) is equal to its Head (i.e. Christ) which means perfect as Jesus is perfect.

  21. Craig says:

    #34 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 12:14
    Craig, I enjoy our visiting. I would prefer to be sitting in a cafe with you, cup of coffee in hand and open Bibles on the table. As we both acknowledged, we need to go for now. Thanks for clarifying the caps :).

    Also, Hobbit, thanks for your remarks as well. You are right about needing to be careful. I realize that sincere Christians have been lied to in the past; & manifest sons theology has been part of that deception. I do believe that there is a time of grace where the “bride makes herself ready,” and when the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached (and demonstrated) worldwide. Maybe we can discuss more of this over the next couple days. Thank you both, and Tricia.

    #35 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 12:24
    Francis,

    I’d enjoy a one on one as well! If you contact me at my blog (just look up “CrossWise blog”) perhaps we could actually converse if not face-to-face in email or even on the phone (assuming you are in the States)?

    #36 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 16:16
    Craig, not sure how to get your address. Are you on Facebook?

    #37 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-02 16:40
    Francis, No, I’m not on Facebook (I’d probably not get anything else done, LOL); but, if you go to the blog (google “Crosswise blog”) you’ll see my “About” tab in which you can send me a note. It requires you provide a valid email so that I can respond.

    #38 Badger 2012-02-02 17:28
    Thanks Craig… VERY helpful comments and thank you to Francis for being willing to respond. So few do that.
    I was looking at a book by guy called Harold R. Eberle called “Bringing the Future Into Focus: An Introduction to the Progressive Christian Worldview” where he draws an exponential curve representing the church’s increasing power (& the purity/character to handle it of course). This curve hits infinity (ie MSoG) at the exact time Jesus comes back for his spotless and victorious bride. It seems to be very much what many are proposing these days (Bickle, Johnson, Arnott, Joyner etc…) -cont

    #39 Badger 2012-02-02 17:33
    Anyway….So my question to Francis is just how “glorious” is he expecting us to get? Will we all be able to fly like Phillip, heal with our shadows like Peter, speak in any language of our choosing, prophesy pure scripture etc… Are we going to be 1/4 to 1/2 “gods” during the final few years before Christ comes back as Elberts graph suggests? Problem is half of infinity is still infinity. I think it is irresponsible to encourage people to go seeking ever increasing glory and yet never tell us how to measure it or how much to expect. All it does is get thousands of young people seeking out ever more exotic spiritual experiences yet never feeling the last fix was adequate.

    #41 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 17:53
    Hi Badger. You asked, how “glorious” am I expecting us to get? Will we all be able to fly like Phillip, heal with our shadows like Peter, speak in any language of our choosing, prophesy pure scripture etc… Are we going to be 1/4 to 1/2 “gods”?

    I am only aware of one thing: Jesus will be as real to us as the world was when we were sinners.

    #42 Badger 2012-02-02 18:06
    Please dont misunderstand me Francis. I am part of a large Charismatic mission and have being involved in training missionaries for 20 years. But I tell you this new wind of teaching is going to destroy missions. We are already seeing the fruit of it. It’d be totally irresponsible for us send any more workers to learn language & culture (minimum 5 yrs to get functional) if in 5 (or even 10) yrs the glory is going to fall and they will be able to speak by the spirit fluently, raise the dead and deliver the very words of God. So what should we do? Stop all recruiting, training, support and join IHOP? Does the twitter generation really need to be encouraged to become virtual missionaries?

  22. Craig says:

    #43 F.F. Quote 2012-02-02 19:27
    “Yet, before He appears, while He is near but still invisible, that same radiance of glory will be poured out on ‘all flesh’ (Acts 2:17 21). For as He is in power and glory when He appears, so He is beforehand though unseen! And it is this out raying Presence which will grow ever more resplendent in the church prior to His second coming. … The church will be beautified with His glory and filled with His radiance before He physically comes for her! … Many promises given to the church, formerly thought impossible, will be fulfilled by the fulness of Christ in us.”
    Frangipane, The Days of His Presence, pg. 35

    #44 F. Frangipane 2012-02-02 20:16
    Badger, I think you have to keep being faithful in “little things.” Whatever happens our faithfulness in being faithful to use what gifts and graces we have will help qualify us for greater, whatever those things may be. No labor in Christ is in vain.

    #45 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 03:27
    @ Comment #43: I’ve seen the source of this particular quote. This reiterates the ‘Christ cannot return until the [B]ride is perfected’ (just like Christ) doctrine. In addition, the emphasis on ‘all’ as in all flesh of Acts 2:17 I’ve seen in other sources (as disparate as Bill Johnson and Pope Benedict) suggesting universalism – all will be saved. Yet, Peter’s point in that Scripture at Pentecost was that the Holy Spirit was to be “poured out” (individuals will be indwelt) irrespective of race (even Gentiles), age, gender, social class/standing, etc. Pentecost inaugurated the Spirit’s indwelling as opposed the occasional ‘coming upon’ as in the OT and before Jesus’ Ascension.

    #46 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 03:57
    I thought it would be beneficial for all readers here to quote a bit frrom the Gordon Fee/Douglas Stewart book “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” [Zondervan, 1993, 2nd ed.]. First, the authors compare the current age (post-Cross and Resurrection), the “already” consisting of righteousness, peace, health, Spirit, to the age to come (Jesus’s 2nd coming), the “not yet” which will be completed righteousness, full peace, no sickness or death, and in complete fullness [p 133].
    “The hermeneutical key to much of the New Testament, and especially the ministry and teaching of Jesus, is to be found in this kind of ‘tension’… [cont]

    #47 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 04:08
    [cont] “Precisely because the kingdom, the time of God’s rule, had been inaugurated with Jesus’ coming we are called to life in the kingdom, which means life under his lordship, freely accepted and forgiven, but committed to the ethics of the new age [ed: not the 'New Age'!] and to seeing them worked out in our own lives and world in this present age.
    “Thus when we pray, ‘Thy kingdom come,” we pray first of all for the consummation. But because the kingdom we long to see consummated has already begun to come, the same prayer is full of implications for the present.” [pp 133-134]

    #48 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 04:57
    Craig, I agree with your comments # 46 & 47. On your comment on the FF quote that someone put up (wasn’t me), you said, “This reiterates the ‘Christ cannot return until the [B]ride is perfected’ (just like Christ) doctrine.”

    The Bible says a time will come when “the bride has made herself ready” and that she will put on “fine linen, bright and clean.” We also know Christ will present to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle. Are you saying it is wrong to believe we can be genuinely blood washed, Spirit filled, and actually “bright and clean,” even as the Lord’ returns? I agree, though, that not until our bodies are redeemed at Christ’s return will we be without sin.

    #49 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 07:13
    Francis, NIV 1984 on Rev 19:6-8:
    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    “Hallelujah!
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
    7 Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear.”

    By the full context going back to 19:1, it’s clear this occurs on the other side of glory rather than in this life. So, I agree that we, the bride (not capital “b”) of Christ, are “made ready” yet I disagree re on timing.

    #50 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 07:25
    I wish to make clear something that may be a bit ambiguous. Fee/Stewart are not stating these conditions in the “not yet” occur as a condition of or prior to Christ’s return:

    “…[Early believers] lived between the times – that is, between the begining of the end and consummation of the end. At the Lord’s Table they celebrated their eschatological existence, by proclaiming ‘the Lord’s death until he comes’ (I Cor 11:26). ‘Already’ they knew God’s free and full forgiveness, but they had ‘not yet’ been perfected (Phil 3:7-14)…” [p 133]

  23. Craig says:

    #52 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 08:13
    Francis, In your view, do either or both the Wedding of Christ and His bride and the Wedding feast occur on this side of glory? Or, do either one or both occur AT, i.e. simultaneous with (as opposed to after) the parousia (2nd coming)? Or, do these events both take place after the parousia?

    #53 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 08:23
    Craig, about the bride, I believe she is “given” a special grace on this side (“righteous acts”). So she is tested and refined while still in the world. But I agree with you, the wedding feast is during the age to come.

    Where do you reside Craig?

    #54 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 08:35
    Francis, I’m sure we agree that Justification comes at salvation as a result of Jesus Christ’s blood-bought work on the Cross. And, I’m confident we agree that the process of sanctification is brought forth as we submit to the indwelt Holy Spirit’s prodding. To the extent we submit to the Spirit rather than the flesh we are increasingly sanctified. Yet it’s not a work that we do per se as it’s a work of the Spirit. Using the concepts illustrated by Fee/Stewart, we are not fully sanctified until the “not yet” – the other side of glory – occurs.

    Do you I understand you to be stating the Wedding itself occurs this side of glory while the feast is on the other side?

    #56 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 08:46
    Craig, I believe the bride is refined and clothed in fine linen here, in this age. But the wedding feast is in the age to come.

    #57 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 08:52
    Francis, So, then, can I presume you would agree with Earl Paulk’s view as exemplified in the title of his book “Held in the Heavens Until…” [K Dimension, 1985] using Acts 3:21 as a referent? That is, Christ cannot return until the bride has “made herself ready”?

    #58 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 09:36
    Craig, with the Psalmist I say “our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases,” i.e., the Most High can fulfill His word in any way He wants. He doesn’t need to conform to our interpretations. At the same time, remember, Jesus said that “Scripture cannot be broken.” The Word is not just ink on a page or even a doctrine in our bylaws; the Word is God. If He spoke it, we are blessed by believing there will be a divine fulfillment.

    Basically, the Bible teaches us to believe that God will absolutely bring His Word to pass, but exactly how it comes to pass or with whom will be beyond our abilities to forecast.

    #59 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 09:41
    Craig, do you ever use Matthew Henry’s Commentary for a study reference? Or perhaps you’ve read Andrew Murray? Murray wrote a book called “Like Christ,” which I read in the mid 1980s. It absolutely changed my life. Murray was my mentor as far as my understanding of God’s purpose with us. If you can find that book, it will bless and inspire you.

    #62 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 13:44
    Francis, if I’m understanding you correctly, your view is that no one be sure of any Scriptural interpretation (which would necessarily include you). If I’ve misunderstood, please clarify.

    #63 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 13:49
    Francis, I have and use the Matthew Henry Commentary (I’ve referenced it in a few articles); but, I also look at others not relying on any one source. While I’ve heard of Andrew Murray, I’ve not read any of his works.

    Going back to one of your earlier comments, I will say that the Fee/Stewart book is very much against an allegorical approach to the Song of Solomon. This view apparently originated with Origen.

    #64 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 13:55
    Francis, Going back to your comment #56, it seems you would be in agreement with a somewhat recent tweet by Bill Johnson, “Jesus is returning for a bride whose body is in equal proportion to her head”. Is this so?

    #66 Badger 2012-02-03 15:59
    “If you find yourself more drawn toward prayer than promotion, more toward humility than hype, you are being prepared by the Lord for the glory of God. What He is working in you is typical of what God is establishing in thousands of other believers.”
    This is typical of the sort of stuff we are having to deal with these days Francis. It appear to be a gnostic split that you and others you closely associate with (Bickle, Joyner, Bob Jones etc…) are trying to set up between being-doing, spiritual-physical, experience-word, etc… – cont

    #67 Badger 2012-02-03 16:06
    But these are false dichotomies. I believe you heart is right but its not like you dont promote yourself with your website and facebook page for example. I think it is very dangerous and irresponsible to through out silly statements like this. How can you compare your self-promotion to others? In the end what young people are hearing is that only spiritual experiences are important. As I said this is having a direct impact on mission. people thinking they can be virtual iMissionaries and that they dont have to “do” anything. This nonsense is plungeing this current generation into gnosticism…

  24. Craig says:

    #68 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 16:17
    Francis, Do you see the “Bride” who will “make herself ready” this side of Glory as the 2nd Eve to Jesus as the 2nd Adam? Do you believe the two will become “one flesh” at the Wedding ceremony?

    #69 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 16:30
    Craig: you wrote, “seems you would be in agreement with a somewhat recent tweet by Bill Johnson, “Jesus is returning for a bride whose body is in equal proportion to her head”. Is this so?

    I like Bill, but if he actually said this, I would ask him to explain. As you state it, I wouldn’t agree. Christ is the powerplant; we are light bulbs. However, the substance of light within us is itself His substance. “Of His fullness we have all received.”

    As far as confidence concerning prophetic fulfillment, we can be sure that God will bring fulfillment, but we need to be humble about how He brings it comes to pass.

    #70 F. Frangipane 2012-02-03 16:46
    Badger, you wrote: “In the end what young people are hearing is that only spiritual experiences are important.”

    Hmm, I assume the above thought is your main concern? I think young people tend to start out thinking power, gifts, experiences, etc. Kind of a normal place for young people as its attractive. However, I have an online school devoted to helping people attain conformity to Christ. Christlikeness is my focus.

    You also said its wrong for me to have a web site or a Facebook page? Hmm. There is a difference between self-promotion and communication. We aren’t saying, we are the best, etc. I guess I’m not tracking where you are headed.

    #72 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 17:27
    Francis, thanks for honestly answering my query re Bill Johson’s tweet (on Aug 20, 2011). I assure the quote is verbatim and the full context provided. It sure raised my eyebrows.

    Interesting analogy of Jesus as powerplant and we as light bulbs. I can’t say I disagree even though I’d not state it exactly as such. I do agree with your stance on prophetic fulfillment. However, given that, it doesn’t seem right to use any portion of Revelation to put forth a definitive doctrinal view unless one concedes that other views are just as valid.

    #73 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-03 17:35
    Francis, I’m trying to fully wrap my mind around your view of the bride who “makes herself ready” this side of glory. It seemed like you were stating the Wedding ceremony would occur this side of glory. Is that correct? I’m clear that you affirm the Wedding feast will occur in the age to come (the same as “the other side of glory” I presume?).

    However, while you do not affirm Johnson’s tweet as it stands, you stated in your ’94 book, “Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full stature of its Head, the Lord Jesus”. This seems to be essentially the same as Bill’s quote. I’m confused. Can you clarify?

    #77 Al Dager 2012-02-03 17:39
    The Manifested Sons of God beliefs, such as Frangipane leans toward, posit that the corporate “Church” will be perfected in this life and that it will rule the nations without the Lord present on the earth.
    No, the Lord is dealing with His ecclesia, a “called out” company, a small segment within the conglomerate institutionalism called “the Church.” The ecclesia will not be sinless, but will possess hearts that place the Lord above all else in their lives, overcoming the temptations and trials in this world in order to be prepared to rule and reign with Him in the resurrection when HE RETURNS BODILY to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth. [cont.]

    #79 Al Dager 2012-02-03 17:39
    [cont.] Unless one understands the MSG terms, one might think Frangipane is speaking their language. His prior writings and associations with MSG “prophets” and “apostles” betray the real meaning of what he is saying.
    The spots and wrinkles from which the Lord will purge us is not our sin nature, or even our sins in this fallen flesh, but the false apostles, prophets and teachers among us (2 Peter 2:13; Jude 12). We must come out from among them and be separate.
    For the more sensitive out there, it is not unloving to confront error with biblical truth; it is true love that risks the ire of those we love. Seek the Lord for the courage to stand for His truth.
    Al MediaSpotlight

    #82 Badger 2012-02-03 19:45
    Francis says: “I assume the above thought is your main concern? I think young people tend to start out thinking power, gifts, experiences, etc. Kind of a normal place”
    Well, Yes it is now, thanks to this tidal wave of MSoG ‘lite’ teaching. However that NEVER was the case. All the great missions movements have been young peoples movements. People found intimacy with God on the field both doing AND being, working AND praying. I’m not closed minded to new things. I am patient and willing to learn. But believe me the fruit is now visible as a growing gnosticism or dualism.

  25. Craig says:

    #83 F. Frangipane 2012-02-04 16:29
    Craig, you asked about the “wedding ceremony” being on this side of glory. I never even heard someone teach that, have you? It’s a new concept to me. I think the bride is refined and betrothed in this age, but the actual feast/ceremony is in the age to come. Again, I do believe that a special grace will be “given to [the bride]” in the last hours of this age. She will “make herself ready.”

    #84 F. Frangipane 2012-02-04 16:32
    Concerning my prophetic quote, that the church will attain the “full stature of its Head,” again I am quoting Eph 4 Scripture vebatim. I’m not making this up. This is the Word of God. I may never attain it or even know someone who attains it, but let’s let God be true and not compromise His promises or calling. God gives ministries “until” we reach full stature (read: functional Christlikeness). However, the Bible does not say we will be sinless and neither did my quote. ;) cont

    #85 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-04 16:40
    Francis, I am just trying to understand your stance. I think I’m clear on it now with your last comment, thanks. From my point of view, however, since I see Rev 19:7-8 as being in the age to come, I equate this as the direct precusor to the Wedding ceremony which logically precedes the feast.

    And, yes, I’ve heard of such a thing as the ceremony occuring this side of glory as it’s a Gnostic teaching.

    #86 F. Frangipane 2012-02-04 16:48
    Craig, again, I want to thank you for your approachable attitude. In taking time to answer your questions, my hope is not to “convert” you to my thinking, but to accept that sincere Christians can have different perceptions but still be able to fellowship in Christ. When we stand before God in Heaven, He will not judge us on how well we understood prophecies concerning the future; He will measure how much love is in our lives.

    I have a couple more comments to make, but just wanted to thank you. I also want to invite others to write if they have questions. I will try to answer as long as I can keep up with my other work. Psalm445aol.com

    #87 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-04 16:55
    Francis, Yes, I do understand Eph 4, but, of course, the full consummation is not until the age to come. It seems you are agreeing with this with your statement that we are not sinless as the Ephesians Scripture does not indicate that as you state. It may have been helpful to specifically place that caveat in your initial quote for clarification to the reader since, just as Scripture interprets Scripture, Colossians 1:18-19 affirms that Christ is the Head of the body yet Christ has the fullness of the Godhead as well – a trait the body will never have.

    #88 F. Frangipane 2012-02-04 20:13
    You wrote, “It may have been helpful to specifically place that caveat in your initial quote for clarification.”

    Good idea. I might devote a page both in the book and also on our website to clarify a number of things that you (and others) brought up. Next time we do a reprint I will see if we can create such a page. Thanks!

    #89 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-04 23:13
    Francis, Thank you for your willingness to engage in civil discourse even though we may disagree on some things. This sort of thing is increasingly rare these days.

  26. peacebringer says:

    Well, actually as much as may disagree with FF on some things, in the dialogue he seems genuine and nothing triggered as concerning. That being said, he does offer perspectives and views that can be confusing. Interesting that this discussion is rather centered on growth and at end up month will be giving a talk at our church’s men’s breakfast on healthy growth.

  27. Craig says:

    peacebringer,

    I see his views as put forth in the Charisma articles comments at odds with the quote in this article. At best the quote as it stands is not sufficiently clear. If he understands MSoG/Man-Child teaching, then his quote should have quite a few caveats so as not to be confused with MSoG/Man-Child. I find it odd that my recent comments would be the first he’s come to the understanding that his ’94 book could be construed in that way.

  28. Craig says:

    Two more comments:

    #90 Fiddle Sticks 2012-02-05 04:58
    I am more concerned about a dead church who has no power or little relationship with Jesus than people getting all twisted whether we can reach perfection in this age or not.
    If the best people can do is get twisted over MSOG when weak & liberal Christianity has deceived millions more around the globe then they need a greater dose of Holy Spirit power.

    #91 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 06:33
    @#90: Given that MSoG has a parallel with New Age teaching of the ascension of humankind to a new race of men known as homo universalis and its corollary teaching that those who do not wish to ‘evolve’ are to be removed based on a twisted view of Rev 6:7-8 (Barbara Marx Hubbard)with Joel’s Army as the pale horse (Wm. Branham also Bill Hamon, etc.), I find it cause for concern. In addition, two of the most sobering Scriptures have to do with charismatic excess, namely Matthew 7:21-23 (“I never knew you. Away from me evil doers!”) and II Thes 2:9-12 (“They perish because they refused to love the truth…”), one should give pause.

  29. Craig says:

    #92 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 06:57
    @#90: You pose a straw man using false dichotomies. Just because one speaks out on MSoG does not mean one accepts liberal Christianity or ‘powerless’ Christianity. And, brilliant displays of charismata are not necessarily signs of a stronger relationship with Jesus Christ any more than the lack of (obvious) charismata are an indication of a weak relationship with Jesus Christ.

  30. peacebringer says:

    I didn’t read the actual article as of yet, just the exchange and saw a reasonable exchange. Is it possible he is simply disembling, certainly. I had no positive or negetive spiritual engagement over the exchange, so looking with own eyes. My own eyes can fail to pick up on things. And by know means would I say he has sound understanding. He maybe sincerely mistaken out of pure reasoning or any # of things. Not looked into FF enough myself to make a determination on that front.

  31. Craig says:

    more comments:

    #93 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 10:41
    Finally, lets discuss again the “virgin with child” concept, specifically the woman in labor from Rev 12. Using Crosswalk.com, most commentators interpret the woman to be the church (or Israel and the church, which is my view). The woman is not stately here, she is in labor to give birth. This is precisely how I see true Christianity today: We yearn for a true, deep move of God, not something frivolous or heretical. We are in labor to birth something greater than ourselves.

    Study the commentators’ view of the woman, and especially her child. I wish every soul hungry for God, before they criticize the idea of a virgin church w/ child, would read the commentators of Rev 12.

    #94 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 11:34
    Here is what Matthew Henry wrote on Rev 12. He states the woman is the church (most common view). Of the child born of her, MH says: “in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.”

    I would love to hear his full view. Yet, I pray that those who oppose this view would at least prayerfully consider the possibily God has one final, great outpouring in His heart.

    #95 Badger 2012-02-05 15:31
    “Yet, I pray that those who oppose this view would at least prayerfully consider the possibility God has one final, great outpouring in His heart.” Francis, I do find this option very attractive, & yes, the bride will be victorious. But what does “victorious” mean? Is it like the quiet yet extremely powerful victory over evil that Corrie Ten Boom won in a Nazi prison camp? Or is it more visibly powerful & political? eg Like the massively destructive power that Mike Bickle says we will wield once we come to perfect unity under some kind apostle-driven theocracy/dictatorship? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5FMsDrNyn4 Where do you stand on these very prevalent ideas today Francis?…

    #96 Badger 2012-02-05 15:32
    cont – You seem to imply something more visibly powerful, so my question is still: how powerful are we talking about here? Also, where is the use of this power modelled in scripture? We only have Christs model in the bible, which was to always use his power for empowerment & never use his power for self promotion (more like the Corrie Ten Boom type of power IMO). So where is the biblical model for handling extreme power that some of the people pushing this “very positive” eschatology say will be released? Some say it will totally “redefine” what Christian is… but if Christianity will no longer be like the only biblical models we have, who will create the new model & with what authority?

    #97 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 15:35
    Francis, since I didn’t fully answer the question of the woman of Revelation, I’m glad to discuss it. My initial point was that from a literal standpoint the woman who bore Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago is Mary. This is borne out (pun intended :-)) in verse 5. Yet, in my opinion, I agree with you that the woman is both Israel and the Church metaphorically. Israel is represented by the 12 stars in v 1 and it’s the nation Israel which was in metaphorical ‘labor’ with the Christ child as fulfillment of Gen 3:15. Yet there’s a future fulfillment at the literal 2nd coming of Christ exemplified in v 5 “He will rule with a rod of iron”. [cont]

    #98 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 15:40
    Badger, don’t you think that the book of Acts provides plenty of examples of what a Spirit filled church might look like, especially the first third?

    However, I do agree that the church needs a lot more of Christ’s character, much more of His humility and a deeper infilling of His love. Perhaps the outpouring we hope for will follow our getting our priorities in order.

    Paul spoke of “being conformed to Christ’s death” that he might gain Christ’s power.

    #99 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 15:40
    [cont] Verses 1-6 are a compression of both past history and inaugurated & future eschatology. The Church is ‘born’ out of Israel as exemplified in v 17. My opinion (at present) is that verses 13-16 are Israel. The way I read the rest of 12 finds no room for a reference to any future ‘birthing’.

    #100 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 15:56
    Francis, I understand that Dominionists use v 5 “He will rule with a rod of iron” to refer to the overcoming church in the last days which will then hand over the world to Jesus. Yet this contradicts I Cor 15:23-25 as it’s Jesus Christ Himself who hands over the kingdom to the Father. That this is true comes from v 22 which states “so in Christ all will be made alive” which does not occur until the parousia [cf 15:50-54; 1 Thes 4:15-17

    #101 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 16:12
    I have 3 different commentaries on Rev, Grant Osbourne (BECNT), Robert L. Thomas and Robert Mounce (NICNT, 1st ed). On quick read it seems all essentially agree with what I’ve put forth, but I’ll look some more. Osbourne states specifically on v 4, “The child ‘about to be born’ of the woman is Jesus the Messiah, not the people of God” [p 462]. Also, he affirms the ‘woman’ is Israel but that with v 17 she represents “the whole people of God, Israel and the church” [p 456].

    #102 Badger 2012-02-05 16:15
    Thx Francis. I guess I just cant get my head around all this. In one breath we are told that these 1000s you speak of will be filled with a deeper humility, love, and Christlikeness in the last days and I do believe this part. But the only Christlikeness we know of is that which was revealed in his first coming as recorded in scripture. But the new positive eschatology tells us we will have the Christlikeness of the powerful conquering Christ in his 2nd coming and so with great humility and love we will be praying “prayers that kill” like Moses did. But how can we be sure of this? And should we put Moses’s model above the Christ gave us in the NT?

    #103 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 16:35
    Francis, Almost forgot, I also have the Matthew Henry (complete) Commentary. He’s surprisingly spare with his words in the Apocalypse as compared to the rest of the Scriptures. Of course, since he uses the KJV (obviously given the time period written), he uses the term “man-child” rather “male child” like modern versions render vv 5 &13. Henry completely misses the Joseph’s dream reference and because of this leaves Israel out of his interpretation.. I’d say his exposition is rather unique in a number of ways regarding vv 1-4

    #104 Badger 2012-02-05 17:04
    Quoting F. Frangipane:
    Badger, don’t you think that the book of Acts provides plenty of examples of what a Spirit filled church might look like, especially the first third?

    Yes but thats the thing, the early church was a grass roots movement. It was politically weak. The church has always grown best as a grassroots movement. I think a true Christlike theology of power must value meekness. Constantine’s desire to impose a “Christian nation” through power crippled the church. I believe in signs and wonders but those calling for apostolic dictatorship (NAR) seem to be following Constantine’s model not the NT. Or have I misunderstood?

  32. Charlotte says:

    Tried to post this on the Carisma site, but I don’t know how to, ha ha.

    @Francis: I’ve followed this conversation with great interrest, and I feel like a little school girl compare with all of you. But I have the same concerns as some when it come to wait and prepare ourself for revival that I have heard preached the at least last 25 years (but maybe more the last 10 years). And I guess I have been through all stages of personal prayer and deliverance, intercession and spiritual warfare for cities and nations, been drawn to the Toronto, Brownswille, Lakeland being in fulltime ministry for the last 15 years – But there are shockingly few in this ministries (or of this “blessings” at least from Europe where I am from) that actually go to all world and preach the gospel. And when our family finally left our country to do this, it is also quite a shock (coming from our “presence focused envirement”) to see how much energy that is used just to survive with kids and everything out here on the field. to have relationship and follow up ONE dischiple…takes so much prayer, time and effort. Had an interesting “bringing my culture” experience one year ago that made me really start thinking: A new guy came to our bible study, really wanting Jesus – and what did I do? I Prophesied over him…great things and encouragements….Even before he had recieved Jesus or had got any foundation from the Bible to decern my prophesy. This is my inheritance….and I must say it has led me to repentance for my blindness and for my eagerness to seek the manifested precense of the Lord instead of act out of obidience and fear of the Lord leading people to repentance and to Jesus alone. So my point is, all those meetings, days and years of praying for revival – were has it led me/ this generation? And were do we lead the next generation? To “pray and wait” or to “go in allready prepared deeds” and let God be God of the outcome?

    Maybe you are able to post this to Francis for me Craig even with all the wrong spellings?

  33. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    With all due respect I don’t want to ‘gang up’ on him and he may feel I am if I post another’s comment. He is gracious enough to post the comments/responses he’s posted which he certainly does not have to. Most in his position will not.

    If you really wish to post, you should be able to. The name “Charlotte” may already be used on Charisma so, you may have to add a last name (a pseudonym is fine). All you need is a name of some sort and an email address. If you don’t know of a pseudonym to use, the first that come to me is Charlotte Sometimes – the title of a tune by the band The Cure. It’s apparently based on a children’s book.

    Also, all posts are limited to 700 characters (including spaces). Your comment as you’ve posted here would have to be broken up into 2, or more likely 3, different ones.

  34. Craig says:

    more comments:

    #105 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 17:24
    Craig, #100. I agree with you

    #106 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 17:31
    Francis, Just so I’m understanding you 100%, you agree that Dominionists distort these verses, correct? Do you believe Dominionism, i.e., that Adam lost Dominion to Satan in the Garden of Eden, Jesus won it (Dominion) back at the Cross and it’s up the Church (who’s been clueless to this “fact” for the past 1900+ years) to take it back, as a doctrine in general is wrong?

    #107 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 17:34
    Badger, there are a lot of things I don’t know, among them is the answer to what you are talking about in #104.

    I am only focused upon Christ as He was revealed in the Gospels. In fact, over the last 3 years, I have primarily poured my heart into, verse by verse, the things Jesus taught. With each verse I pause and ask the Lord, “Am I walking in this? How much am I walking in this? What still do I lack?”

    #108 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 17:40
    Craig, Jesus said that the works He did we shall also do, and greater works.. . I see Jesus dying for a city that rejected Him, praying Father forgive them. I see Him healing and restoring people. I believe cities and even nations can be turned toward Him in revival, but I do not believe the church will restore the world before Christ comes.

    #109 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 17:47
    Francis, regarding “greater works” of John 14:12, I just wrote an article on my blog citing quite a few Biblical scholars about this very thing illustrating that it’s not greater “signs and wonders” but individual salvation Jesus was referring to:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/greater-works-shall-you-do/

    The greatest miracle of all is a changed heart of an individual towards eternal life.

    #110 Badger 2012-02-05 17:57
    Better say good night at this point. Francis thank you so much for your patience, humility and willingness to interact. I can certainly feel that coming across.

    #111 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 17:57
    Francis, So, you are a proponent of a doctrine similar to one similar to what are variously known as Kingdom Now, Reconstructionism, Restorationism, or Dominionism. This is how I understood your writings. Yet your belief is not that the church actually “puts everything under his feet” [as in 1 Cor 15:27].

    Either way, I don’t see Scripture identifying any future ‘revival’ of the sort you propose. I see this view as optimistic yet unbiblically so.

    Can you provide Scripture to support your view of a future end-times revival?

    #112 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 18:35
    Craig, I agree on the greater works, that they are not necessarily miracles, although I believe miracles are included. I’ve taught similarly concerning the works.

    #113 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 18:43
    Francis, Yes, great! While miracles, signs and wonders may be attendant iwith the preaching of the Gospel and the resultant salvation experience, to quote the old show standard by the Gershwins, “It Ain’t Necessarily So”.

  35. Craig says:

    #114 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 18:45
    Craig, on a last days revival, what about Matt 24:12? Or Acts 2? I am especially devoted to Isa 60:1-3 as a key verse.

    The true is, we don’t know how much time we have left, do we? I’ve been a pastor for over 40 years and I’ve heard literally dozens of times that the end was imminent — of course, every time it was a false wind of doctrine. Suppose we actually have 40 or 50 years before the Lord comes, why couldn’t there be room for a revival of worldwide porportions? God could still fulfill all the other end time events, but also fulfill His word that all nations would be evangelized?

    #115 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 18:58
    Francis, I’d think Matthew 24 would be better for my position that the world will get worse rather than better. Acts 2, and I presume you mean specifically 2:17-21, was fufilled at Pentecost as Peter’s words make clear in v 15, “THIS [again, not shouting but for emphasis] is what was spoken by the prophet Joel…”, or as FF Bruce states, “This is that”. These events inaugurated our current age in which individuals are indwelt by the Spirit as opposed to the ‘coming upon’ in pre-Pentecost days.

    I see Isaiah 60 as specifically for the nation Israel (see Romans 11:25.

    I’d think a worldwide revival would be precluded by the narrow gate.

    #116 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 19:07
    In my last comment my point was that Matthew 24, subtitled “Signs of the End of the Age” by NIV 1984, would make conversion more difficult especially in light of vv 10-12

    #117 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 21:06
    Francis, I do wish to say that I found your choice of Psalm 44:5 interesting as the first part of the email address you provided

    #118 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 21:07
    Hmm. We agree that the Spirit brought in the last days at Pentecost, but its not over. The range and duration of the outpouring is to “all nations,” to the end of the age, just as the proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom goes to all nations as well. Recall, Jesus told the apostles they would take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. The outpouring won’t over until there are “signs in the heavens . . . blood, fire, etc — and all who call on the Lord will be saved (evangelistic). I do agree Craig that the end times will be (are) perilous, difficult and deceptive. I also agree there continues to be a great falling way. But you are not saying the outpouring is over are you?

    #119 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 21:18
    Opps, thats funny. I posted the wrong email address. Its supposed to be psalm455aol.com.

    If you want to write me privately use the above address. I think that’s the right one.

    #120 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 21:23
    Francis, The “outpouring” is not over, no. There will be conversions (individual ‘outpourings’ of the Spirit) up until Christ’s return, but the way I see Scripture these will diminish because of the difficulties in the end times. I just can’t see one large end-times outpouring as I’ve stated.

    The prophecy regarding the preaching of the Gospel does not necessarily entail conversions along with it. It is our duty to preach the Gospel but it’s the Spirit who draws and, depending on whether one is a Calvinist or Arminian, it’s up to God’s providence and/or the individual to respond.

    #121 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 21:29
    Quoting F. Frangipane:
    The outpouring won’t over until there are “signs in the heavens . . . blood, fire, etc — and all who call on the Lord will be saved (evangelistic).

    Yes, and these signs are in the sixth seal of Rev 6:12.

    #122 F. Frangipane 2012-02-05 21:37
    Craig, if you want to contact me, feel free to use my email address. Unfortunately, I need to end this phase of our conversation. We can also talk by phone, but I need to get to other things.

    I do not believe the world needs to be subdued before Jesus can return. I believe Isaiah 60 has a profound fulfillment for the church, not just Israel. I hope I’ve clarified some things for you and, like I said, you are welcome to continue our contact by email. Thanks again.

    #123 Craig CrossWise 2012-02-05 21:55
    Francis, Will do. I appreciate your time and willingness to engage in this discussion.

  36. Charlotte says:

    Thank you for that response! Didn’t think of that! I’m not into answering blog-posts as you understand and the last thing I want to do is to be part of mass attacs. So i guess your conversation there works fine without my contribution anyways. I really get a lot out of it!! :) and it fit in better here were you have a wider discussion.

    Charlotte sometimes ;)

  37. Charlotte says:

    Craig – I see you have plenty of biblical insight and have delt biblically with a lot of the issues that have come up in my life the last year. And I feel I have sorted out a lot concerning false prophesy and teaching that I’ve been influenced of the last 15 years.

    Well now I see your response about the outpouring of the Spirit on pentecost, that it was fulfilled while Peter spoke! I agree to that. But I also wonder how you interpret the manifistational gift of the Spirit from 1.Cor 13. And Paul sayng: “I wish you all spoke in tounges…”

    You see I’ve been grown up in a conservative pentecost church (no jumping or screaming, that came later into my life) were the prophesy always have come in tounges with interpretation, and before there was always part of the summer-camp to pray for people to be filled with the holy Spirit and get the tounges as a tool for our own spiritual growth.

    My own thoughts was that I knew I was filled with the Holy Spirit because I ATE the bible afterwords :) I couldn’t get enough of the word. I read it and it spoke to me and it gave me power to dear to be a witness. It was a ‘before and after’ for me this experience. And I think it is an important part of our walk with Jesus. It has helped me to be obedient!

    Do you believe this is the purpose of the gifts of the Spirit, or that they shall not follow us anymore? I think I didn’t totally got your thoughts about that. But you probably have some thoughts about the function of the Spiritual gifts today?

    I also wonder about the manifistations like uncontrollable laughter, labor screaming, shaking like the “Toronto blessing” brought. I have tried to find some good resorses about those things but I end up in blogs that I do not find serious. I listened to Mike Bickle and were annoied that he would allow 80% of the false manifistations to happen to not kill the real ones. And how he mocked those he said manifested in the flesh not mentioning demonic influence with a word.

    It seem to me that God may touch deeply wounded people and after the repentance by the cross they may feel relieved and laugh – maybe not uncontrollable but like a confirmation of His truth that have set them free (Like Elisabeth when Mary came to her maybe?) Also I know many say they tremble inside before they will give a testimony or such. I have manifested all sorts, and I would say I now understand lot’s has not been from God, but I’m afraid to throw everything away and call all demonic or human.

    Do you have any thoughts about this?

  38. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    I am not a cessationist believing all the gifts have ceased. Reading through I Corinthians 12-14, I don’t see how it’s intellectually honest to adopt that stance. However, I suppose I’d call myself a ‘soft continuationist’ as I believe “All these are the work of one and the same Spirit and he gives them to each one, just as he determines” [I Cor 12:11, NIV 1984]. My understanding is that there are no individuals identified specifically as, for example, a “healer” or “interpreter of tongues” as a gift the person retains for life. Instead, the Spirit gives as “He determines” for His specific purposes, and my belief is that this is primarily for the futherance of the Gospel or perhaps to edify the church body.

    To my knowledge I’ve never spoken in tongues. My opinion regarding tongues specifically is that its main purpose is for the Spirit to speak through individuals to others in a language unknown to the speaker yet known to the recipient for the furtherance of the Gospel (this does not preclude the Spirit speaking through another for edification but only in cases of a language barrier, IMO). I understand this to be “interpretation of tongues”. My belief is many of the tongues spoken in hyper-charismaticism is nonsense babbling. From what I’ve heard, this sort of speaking has very limited syllables and is repeated ad infinitum. I don’t understand why God would do this. God does not babble incessantly.

    On the other hand, Paul does say in I Cor 14:4 that “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself…” which is a form of communication between the person and God [see also 14:2]. I’ve no experience with this but I do not doubt it as it’s right there in Scripture [also see 1 Cor 13:1, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love..." which presumes the gift] and I’ve heard the testimony of others I deem as credible. However, more importantly, Paul speaks of tongues as a lesser gift to, as, per his example, prophecy, which he terms a “greater gift” [1 Cor 14:1-2, 14:18-19]. But, what is the gift of prophecy?

    To prophesy is simply to speak the words of God, i.e. the Spirit of God speaks through an individual. By strict definition this can be either forthtelling, i.e. speaking forth the Word of God, the Bible, in context in a manner understood by the audience; or, it can be foretelling as in predicting the future. My strong opinion is that forthtelling is what is in mind here and that the prediction of future events is limited and specifically not of such importance that the whole church needs to be told. We already have unfulfilled prophecy in the Scriptures for that. Yet, it’s possible the Spirit can speak through an individual regarding a future event to another for the other’s edification. But, again, I believe the application is very limited.

    As to forthtelling, I believer Paul makes this very clear this is the main objective with his words in I Cor 14:18-19 by contrasting tongues with prophecy:, “18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.” To me this is very clear: prophecy is for instruction and edification. With the sheer numbers of false teachings and teachers out there my belief is that it’s much more important to prophecy in a forthtelling manner.

    To summarize, the gifts are important to edify the body and the Spirit gives as He sees fit. I don’t think any cessationist would argue that the gift of faith [I Cor 12:9] or discernment [I Cor 12:10] are no longer needed and have ceased. We should “eagerly seek the greater gifts” but we must patiently wait for the Spirit to provide through persistent prayer. We cannot ‘force’ or ‘coach’ the Spirit upon anyone else.

  39. Craig says:

    As far as Toronto-style uncontrollable laughter, etc., I believe these are from mocking spirits. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control. However, yes the Spirit can and does cause brokenness and joy; but, either of these in excess can come from mocking spirits as in Kundalini. I believe discernment as a spiritual gift should be sought to make this determination.

    If by “labor screaming” you mean “birthing in the spirit” – I firmly believe this to be mocking, demonic spirits. I see absolutely no reference in Scripture for any such thing.

    Sadly, like you’ve found, most blogs are stuck on extreme polemics on either side of this issue. There are probably good resources on this subject out there. Personally, I highly recommend Gordon Fee’s commentary on First Corinthians although it’s not inexpensive. Though I’ve only skimmed, I have a copy of Ralph P. Martin’s book The Spirit and the Congregation: Studies in 1 Corinthians 12-15 which is endorsed by Fee and looks like a good read although a bit scholarly.

    For an insider’s account of Toronto, here’s Pastor Paul Gowdy’s personal testimony:

    http://iftruthbeknown.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/the-toronto-deception/

  40. cherylu says:

    If part of this ends up being posted twice, please just ignore it! I seem to be having a computer war this a.m.

    Anyway:

    Hi Charlotte,

    I wanted to tell you that I was a part of this movement for many years too although I did not get as “into” it as a lot of other folks did.

    What has really troubled me about some of the manifestations that you were talking about is that I simply can not find any real Scriptural support for them at all. The verses that are usually used for support seem to be taken way out of context or to be a very strained reading at best.
    On the other hand, what I have found through my reading is that these manifestations are found in eastern religions and the new age movement.

    It has been very alarming to me to see a large part of the church accept all of this with no solid Scriptural basis for it while at the same time knowing these things happen often in contexts that are decidedly non Christian. That kind of leaves me believing that either much of this is from the flesh or otherwise it is indeed demonic.

  41. Craig says:

    I hope you’ve now won the computer war. Did you plead the blood? Did you try exorcising the computer demon? ;-) Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    Actually, there may be a WordPress issue as my first comment disappeared. My suggestion is that before you hit “submit” or “send” that you copy and save beforehand so that you can repost easily if necessary.

  42. Charlotte says:

    Thank you both!

    Craig:To the first section – thank you for understanding that I talked about 1.Cor.12 :) Is it ok that I prosses here out load with you?

    I guess we all take our own experiences into consideration. You have not experienced tongues and have have the tongues so we may try to understand what it is all about by reading the word. I think I am getting a clearer and broader understanding about the prophecy as I learn from others from other traditions like you! It seem to me that our experiences counts when we are trying to understand this things – but we need to have the scriptures to back it?

    Like the gift of interpreting the tongues. I have never read (does not mean stories are out there) of any missionaries of the last 100years that have gotten a full language to preach the godpel to an unreached people, but I’ve heard a seldom time that the tongues have been interpreted by some that actually spoke that language, and others in the congregation had the same interpretation even they did not understand the language. I’ve also heard it confirmed several times that a tongue has come (even with few (to us) repeating sounds) and it has been interpreted “by the Spirit”, and some in the congregation have been shocked to hear their own tongue been spoken fluently, and could confirm that the content of the interpretation was true.

    Growing up in this sort of (to me) sober congregation (of 1000-2000 back in the 70-80′s, No shouting tounges, or whole congregation speak at the same time like people often accuse pentecostals to do :D) I have actually wonder why in this “new carismatic and prophetic movements” (that I have been a part of since mid 90′s) there are seldom the confirmation part were two have the same prophesy on their heart? One say it in tongues – the other confirm it by interpretation. To me this is orderly and give the church chance to both stop unhealthy or exstatic tongue or interpretation – and to my knowledge, those who came with this either tongues or interpretations neither called them self prophets, but like you mentioned from 1.Cor. 12:11 – it was given by anyone in the church, different people from one time to another (but you would recognise the same people over time.) Usually after the teaching, and most often it was confirming the Word that the teacher/preaching had just said. So everything is about confirming the Word, and edifying the church and at times rebuking.

    Well – I am willing to look at this again, but for know this make sense to me out from 1.Cor 14:1- 25: (I believe we need to read the whole, but I just note some few verse that I believe tongues with interpretation is also for the congregation/gathering/church)
    v.5…unless he interpret so that the church may be edified.
    v.13…for this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
    v.24-23 – how tongues is not convincing the unbeliever, but the prophecy would do (in this context I read prophecy also as interpretation of the tounges)

    (I would love to get the whole language to the people we are reaching here, but I think like most of everything that we experience down here, we need to walk the prosses and learn this new languages. And one day they will be represented before the throne singing praise to Him :)
    __________

    But what you said about the manifistations, “kundulini” spirit or whatever it is called. Even at the time – I experienced it “freedom-ish”, I see it it more bounding than anything. And what it lead to: You think the spirit is setting you free, but I got addicted to the feeling and the sense of power (especially to prophesy or speak into other peoples life, “decern” the spiritual atmosphere in a place….and so on….) witch I am so sad to confess I have been into (but would do it anyways because only the truth will set me free)

    Again, I have experienses but it may not be backed up with any word (exept maybe some words that are describing possesed people…)

    I read the testiomony that you posted, and I thank God that He have helped several heavy involved through this. It is really clear (now) that this is SO mocking – and it make me sad – I must say I have questioned that before, but I think not until I took a stand against it and repent from it, I was not able to see the whole picture of what was going on…Then I realize what I have tasted is rotten, and if I sense a little bit of it again I get this same rotten feeling. That is were I’m at right now.

    Thank you so much for taking your time to answer me. I am still in the prosess of sorting out and I feel I’ve got the freedom back to actually ask questions without feeling that I manifest religious spirits ;)

    C.

  43. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    You’re welcome! And, yes you may process your thoughts here.

    A former friend (her choice after I questioned her hyper-charismatic practices) told me how she ‘got tongues’. She was in a local San Antonio hyper-charismatic congregation, someone was basically coaching her and then she started speaking one syllable over and over again (I don’t recall exactly, but let’s just say na-na-na-na…) after which the ‘coach’ said, “You got it!” Got what?, I think to myself. Baby talk? Does one have to go back to baby language to speak in tongues? No, of course not.

    Contrast that with an account told to me personally by an individual who went to China (as I remember it, I may not recall all the details correctly). At one point he was led to speak in front of an all-Chinese audience. He prepared his ‘sermon’ (he’s a musician); and, when he got to the podium he forgot what he was going to say and he couldn’t read his Bible. He was panicked! But, then all of a sudden he started to speak having no idea that he was actually speaking perfect Mandarin Chinese! After his sermon, a large number (150? or so) came up to accept Christ.

    Assuming this is true (I have reason to doubt this individual’s integrity based on something entirely different which happened subsequent to this), I’d see this as absolutely Scriptural as it’s just like the example of Acts 2. When those in the Upper Room spoke they began to speak in different languages unknown to them but known to some in the audience and 3000 were brought into the Kingdom that day. This is an example of tongues and interpretation of tongues (those in the audience who understood) as I understand it.

    And, I would agree with you on prophetic words needing to be confirmed. I can’t say I’ve studied these passages at length (1 Cor 12-14); so, I don’t wish to make statements as if I am some sort of authority. Perhaps someday I will do an in-depth study. For example I don’t know what exactly Paul means by “while everybody is prophesying” [14:24] which sounds to me like it would be a bit chaotic and not “orderly worship” [14:26-33].

    All experiences should be measured against the Word. If they specifically go against the Word they should be rejected. If they are not against but yet are not found in the Word, they should be questioned and not fully accepted unless and until the individual gets some sort of confirmation.

  44. peacebringer says:

    Charollette, let me if you mind share some experience and it is keeping with 1 corithians where it is variety of gifts for variety of purposes. I have a gift of discernment, I get spiritual reactions to certain things. Cannot predict when and where and cannot say I always read it write, but God given me that gift. When listen and attend it is always accurate. Others have discernment that work other ways. Nothing I can turn off or on when I want it, just happens.

    I have had moments when speaking a confrontation where I knew speaking words God said and felt over flowing in Holy SPirit. One such time I was at work and had an overwhelming Joy.

    I have had God work in my life, in giving prophecies to a friend that were meant for me. It came for period and then ended. He doesn’t even get prophetic words/images often anymore. But it is what was needed and what God used to move me through some tough periods in my life and moved forward and progress. Now, the thing about the “prophetic” is it can be addicting, you get to where you want to crave that word from God, as have sense that God is workign directly. And this is what addictive of this “experiential” seeking. God moves and gives as will, if go seeking for an experience, go through manipulations to “hear” from God, there is good chance will get led another way. I have had interaction with people, who sound fine one moment, but the more you get to know, the farther off they get. Especially once directly confronted. So it is a looking after, seeking, trying even to force relating to God. It happens with the “extrenals.”

    Now the other trend is the inner seeking, the “medatative experiences” the going into realm of “spirit” without the leading of Holy Spirit on own terms. God does interact internally. There is the still small voice, and we do need to “shut up” and listen. Yet, the “contemplative” also readily is a deceptive practive and what can come from genuine experience led by God can be an addictive seeking that can get easily filled with “something other than.” Scripture uses “fields” and “storehouses” for reason when talking of where folks will say Christ is at, yet we are directed to “no go” for that is not where God is at.

    This comes down to lack of really being able to discern God’s voice and listen. There are other factors that come into play led by own desires. John gives excellent directives that in our self can easily be blind to and all temptations come in form of.

  45. Charlotte says:

    Craig: Yes, he he – I’ve heard my friend from Korea just told me that her youth pastor had done the same; na na na na. And it has become an inside joke between us. Praise God that he repented from doing that and other “tongue-training” –

    As I said – I can not recall any controling or manipulating to get us in our youth ministry to speak in tongues. Our church was a conservative, “low-Hallelujah-factor”-church. I started to praise God in tongues when a friend prayed for me, it lead me to take a step to get biptize and totally give my life to Jesus, and later it became a prayer-language for me. Most often bible verses will come to my mind while praying. I guess that would be like Paul is saying, tongues to edify my spirit. (please do not read “hype up my spirit” …) There is something in Acts 1:8 “But you will recieve power when the Holy Spirit come upon you…..” not to be more unique than others or to show off in any way, but…”to be my witness,in Jerusalem, Samaria, Judea and to the ends of the world” –

    Well I think it is all about that :)

    So I think you sum it up very well in your last paragraph:
    “All experiences should be measured against the Word. If they specifically go against the Word they should be rejected. If they are not against but yet are not found in the Word, they should be questioned and not fully accepted unless and until the individual gets some sort of confirmation.”

    I like the story from China. I have heard similar – And I believe those stuff happen at times. But of course those stories is about God and His souverenity. Nothing we should chase after… I know we agree on that!I know we agree on that!

    I’m just so blessed with your honesty mister! :)

  46. Charlotte says:

    …and Peacemaker: Charollette was a awfully cute name ;) Thanks for your response!

  47. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    Please keep in mind that Acts 1:8 is referring specifically to Pentecost and by that I mean this was the first point in which individuals were indwelt by the Holy Spirit on a permanent basis [cf. II Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14]. This inaugurated the current era which will end with Jesus’ return. Now all believers will receive the Holy Spirit indwelling upon conversion instead of ‘merely’ the Holy Spirit coming upon individuals for a time for the Lord’s purposes (as in the 72 of Luke 10).

  48. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    A few tips: I find it easier myself to type in MS Word first as these comments boxes make it hard to proof-read what is written.

    Also to bold here: use the arrows below the k (left arrow) and l (right arrow) keys – – with the letter b in between to start the bold and /b to end the bold. I’ll use an example substituting brackets [ ] instead:

    [b]text to be bolded[/b]

    Do the same to italicize substituting i instead of b:

    [i]text you want in italics[/i]

    Just be sure to use the arrows instead of brackets.

    These are known as html tags and do not work in some applications/websites. But, these work here.

    I can’t type the arrows as they disappear! Just be sure to use the ones below the k and l.

  49. Charlotte says:

    So we don’t need his Holy spirit to be a witness in the same way? Hmm.

    I DO think that it was a special moment were the Joel prophesy was fulfilled for the first time – I say the first time because we see how the Apostles continue to pray for the next generation of witnesses also to be filled with the holy spirit after they had allready been baprized and were following Jesus. like those in Ephesus in Acts 19:1-7 or in Samaria 8:14-17+ So they were filled with the Holy Spirit – and some places all started to speak in new tongues. It must be for a reason?

    I also think being filled with the Holy Spirit is not about feelings though. I see that by the Pentecost “revival” in the beginning of 1900, lots of feelings were involved. As far as I understand the history, it seems like Azuza Street were filled with all sorts of manifistations also like those in the “Toronto-blessing” – But the wise men of that day would stop the false/demonic manifistations, and they would totally die out (According to “Gods Generals” by Roberts Liardon, William Seymores church they would continue to let all manifistations go on, but sadly enough that church died out after only 3 years…You never hear the new extreme pentacostals today mention that…?) – while the Holy Spirit continued to fill people and they were speaking in tounges – and number of missionaries were sent out like never before. Only from my home church(they were fewer at that time) they went for their lifetime to China, India, Swaziland, Kenya, Kongo and South Africa.

    What I think is sad – And now I’m thinking out load. Whenever God is doing something, also through the scriptures, it seems like that in us humans there is a need to raise and altar or put up an tent (like Peter wanted to do) or build a building, you may call it a church, and that place is the place they believe God will meet them everytime. And they expect God to meet them in the same way. He will give grace in this church, tongues in that church, faith in that church, peace by that altar, victory with that altar, healing, anointing, wisdom, revelations….and so on.

    I guess God said it best: Matt 17:5 – “This is my son, my beloved. In him I have joy – Hear him” (translated form my Norwegian bible) And Peter would not put up a tent or build an altar for Moses or Elijah – but would remember the words of Jesus: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel – and for the sake of this topic I recite from Mark:16:15-18 …and this signs will follow those who believe: … they will speak in new tongues…… (among all the other stuff)

    I don’t know if it was just after this he said Acts 1:8

    So – since He said: Into all the world – and the first disciples were not able to get into the whole world – to this day we have not fulfilled that task – Hmm, I believe that promise and command is still for us today.

    Yes – I am a child of my tradition :) And I find the history interresting. Saying that; I read “Gods Generals” now with totally new eyes. And I would maybe not call them Gods Generals anymore – even if some of them were truly used by God at times, but others just leave me with a huge question mark, and I really cannot understand that it is God of the Bible that are behind all that stuff they were saying or doing. So to look at the bad influenses, the sneaky stuff that have come in and added “revelation” to to already existing word…. It’s just good to examine it a bit!

    Why did the church reject the ways and message from William Branham in the late 40′s but now the same movement invites his teachings back. Why were the “toronto manifistation” not welcome to many many churches in the 90′s but now they are part of so many lives? And why suddenly was it so important for us “interceed on behalf of” to stand in the gap, when God couldn’t find any (in Ezekiel) exept Jesus the perfect sacrifice, and when did the battle in the spiritual over a city become more important than the battle for the souls…? So we use more time to tear down strongholds in the invisible (:fighting the air?) and neglect to share the good news to our neighbour (:confronting the stronghold in the unbelievers minds?)

    Hey – who changed the topic??? He he

    I stop here – He he…Your words above really challenge my thinking, and I like it!!

    Pls continue if you see some foggy thought of mine

  50. Charlotte says:

    ok – I read your tips now…I’ll try to do that!

  51. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    I’m not sure what you mean with your first sentence. Can you explain?

    Mark 16:9-20 is not in the earliest manuscripts; so, most of the newer versions include this section with explanatory notes or exclude these verses altogether. Of course, most of the material is in other Biblical texts; however, not the part specifying signs will follow all who believe. Sadly, this is where the snake handling cults have arisen. Plus, there is no other place in Scripture in which anyone who drinks poison is unaffected [Mark 16:18].

  52. peacebringer says:

    Well, Charlotte…heh, sorry. My brain does that. At any rate you just did the typical with mine, as I am peaceBRINGER… happens all the time.

  53. Charlotte says:

    PeaceBringer – You got me there – Ha ha :)

    Craig,
    Is it better to formulate my thinking out loud this way maybe:
    Don’t you and me need his Holy spirits power to be a witness in the same way that the disciples needed it?

    I think (out load again) that all this “being filled with the power of the spirit”, always need to be read alongside the rest of the verse: “to be a witness….to the ends of the world.”

    Like IHOP is also using the verse about restoring the house/tabernacle of prayer, without emphesiesing the last part for: all nations (as the courtyard were supposed to be for all nations to worship God, not to sell doves to the Israelites)

    Jesus said: My house should be a house of prayer….for ALL nations

    Interesting what you say about Mark 16:9-20
    ….so when we read those bibleverses: if we drink poison it will not harm us, it doesn’t make sense…. in the peacefull church of the west were we are from – but it did make sense in the times it was written. As far as I remember from my history, several Cesars were poisoned to death – and it seems like it was a common way to get rid of your enemies. And it also make sense among the tribes were we live in Asia, but also in Africa and the Middle East were those who give their life to Jesus would have real enemies. Snakes is a real treath. Demons is a reality, the sick people have no money for a doctor. The verses makes sense out were the needy and (really) hungry are.

    Yes, the danger is there that the churches in the peaceful west, would twist this verses, and it’s sad that some take this kind of verses to the extreme one way or the other way, and build a church upon their understanding or “revelations”. But those verses really makes sense when a witchdoctor try to trap one of our dischiples, or when we are out “there”.

    So how I see it; the gifts of the Holy Spirit is needed still. (In my native bible they are called “the Gifts by grace”) Yes, there have been wrong use of the gift of tongues, interpretations, prophesy, healing, signs,wonders, word of knowledge and words of wisdom, and I think that without the power of the Holy Spirit also even disernment of the spirits that may come also from our own understanding/flesh/enemy too? And none of us would like to fall into the traps of the enemy.

    So, in my everyday life I need the power of the Holy Spirit, to walk in the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and to be ready to be used by God in the gifts of the Spirit, to share about “the Cross” and that the Kingdom is near, for those who have not yet heard.

    I think that would be my conclution now about that sentence, and Acts.1:8, Mark 16:15-18, Mathew 28:18-20, Galatians 5:16-out, and 1.Cor. 12-14

    It is night now, so I’ll come back later :)

  54. iwanthetruth says:

    So – since He said: Into all the world – and the first disciples were not able to get into the whole world – to this day we have not fulfilled that task – Hmm, I believe that promise and command is still for us today.

    Is it possible that ALL THE WORLD in that day was the Roman Empire or even just what they knew of the world and that the Apostles actually fulfilled that command for that time in that day?

    Mark:16:15-18 …and this signs will follow those who believe: … they will speak in new tongues…… (among all the other stuff)

    Is this meaning TODAY or was Jesus speaking to the Apostles?

    Why did the church reject the ways and message from William Branham in the late 40′s but now the same movement invites his teachings back. Why were the “toronto manifistation” not welcome to many many churches in the 90′s but now they are part of so many lives? And why suddenly was it so important for us “interceed on behalf of” to stand in the gap, when God couldn’t find any (in Ezekiel) exept Jesus the perfect sacrifice, and when did the battle in the spiritual over a city become more important than the battle for the souls…? So we use more time to tear down strongholds in the invisible (:fighting the air?) and neglect to share the good news to our neighbour (:confronting the stronghold in the unbelievers minds?)

    I think that one reason it is back and not stopped as it was in the past is because the generation of bible taught believers… truely discipled in the word properly… are all dieing off. So you have fewer people who really know the word, fewer people who are willing to stand up to the false… and more people who are pragmatist. As Bob DeWaay would say, it’s not that this stuff doesn’t work but who is really behind it? What I believe is really happened is that Satan, that great lier, has found away to trick us from taking on the resoinsibility we have, that being preach, and has caused the church to believe that it is all about the supernatural, all about the mystical, all about POWER EVANGELISM. Let the “signs and wonders” do the job. But a perverse generation will seek after signs.

  55. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    Of course I would agree that we all need the Holy Spirit’s power to evangelize, but then we need the Holy Spirit to live any part of the Christian life. Without the Spirit, there would be no fruit of the Spirit [Galatians 5:16-26]. Without the Spirit we could not witness for Christ. And, without the Spirit we could not have any of the gifts of the Spirit.

    You wrote, “(In my native bible they are called “the Gifts by grace”)” Yes! The gifts are called in the Greek Charismata which literally means “grace [charis] gifts”.

    Going back to Mark 16:9-20, many are unaware that there’s a whole theological discipline/study known as ‘textual criticism’. These individuals in this discipline compare all existing manuscripts with each other to determine what was very likely in the “original autographs” – the original copies of the NT books. The only means to preserve these documents at that time was to copy them by hand as the originals became hard to read through use and, the scribes, being human, made some mistakes in the transmissions. Unfortunately, there are no existing copies of any 1st century manuscripts, the earliest is (I believe) around 125AD with most coming much later, plus, there many existing manuscripts; so the task of the textual critic is not made easy.

    The King James Version was translated from later manuscripts. Later archaeology uncovered some earlier manuscripts which is why the issue with Mark 16:9-20 (and some other passages). Here’s the text note in the NIV Study Bible [1984] for Mark 16:9-20:

    Serious doubt exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost

    In Bruce Metzger’s A Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament [1975 (1971) United Bible Societies, Biblia-Druck, Stuttgart], he notes the following on these verses:

    “…The last twelve verses of the commonly received text of Mark are absent from the two oldest Greek manuscripts (and other important early manuscripts)…Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage [9-20] have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses [ed: manuscripts] the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious [ed: false/fake] addition to a document…” [pp 122-123]

    Metzger goes on later concluding, “…Thus, on the basis of good external evidence and strong internal considerations it appears that the earliest ascertainable form of the Gospel of Mark ended with 16:8…” [p 126]

    He states in a footnote that it’s also possible that the Gospel was never finished, or, most likely, the last bit was lost at some point.

  56. Charlotte says:

    Iwan:
    Is it possible that ALL THE WORLD in that day was the Roman Empire or even just what they knew of the world and that the Apostles actually fulfilled that command for that time in that day?

    - Yes – but that doesn’t mean that God didn’t know more? :)

    Math. 24 is talking about the time also we are living in now and verse 14 sais: and this gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testiomony to all nations…and then the end will come.

    John in Revelations also sais that all nation, tribe, people and language will be represented before His throne – And I also believe this is not about the world that John knew about, but the one God knew.

    I read this word in light of this others.
    ______

    Mark:16:15-18 …and this signs will follow those who believe: … they will speak in new tongues…… (among all the other stuff)

    Is this meaning TODAY or was Jesus speaking to the Apostles?

    When all through the bible God is telling us about His plan to bring ALL people back to Him, the last words Jesus said, the only man ever lived that truly totally could speak on behalf of God, that he was giving his last message only to a few (100-500 people) that ‘they’ were the only one to bring the gospel to the whole world? That only ‘they’ should go out, cast out demons, heal the sick, speak in tounges, disciple the new believers, baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…. If we believe some of this is still for us today, why not believe all? – Is Gods word partly true?

    My question is not IF His word is true, (Math. 24:35 and Rev. 27:18-19 (I know that one is about the book of revelation, but it leaves me with some fear of the Lord about removing or adding to His word) but how to recieve His command. How to handle his command of: love God and our neighbours like ourself in a way that may bring glory back to Him. If God choose to use me to pray for a sick and he will be healed – how may I then point to Jesus alone as the healer. How may I handle the grace gifts as gifts and not a possession that I own and deserve that I may use how I think it’s best_
    ______

    Yes, and sadly enough to your last paragraph.

  57. Charlotte says:

    Craig on Mark 16:9-20.

    Thank you for posting that.

    I think it will not take away my amazement of how those words are still in the bible we read today though. They might buzz some of us maybe, but for others they may bring peace. I Remember how some of the old folks in my church said: “I know that the word say that Jesus made water into wine – but I don’t like it!” (totally different topic ;) )

    Is this the same case with the story about the lady caught in adultery from John 8 maybe, as I see this story is also in paraphrases. But what a message!! Would not be without it.

    C.

  58. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    Yes it is true that the account of the woman caught in adultery is not in the earliest manuscripts. In fact, this whole pericope [short passage] has been found at the end of the Gospel of Luke! But, I agree, I do like the message. And, scholars do not doubt the story’s authenticity. There just isn’t clear evidence of exactly who wrote it and where it is to be in the NT since we don’t have originals to prove unequivocally.

    On the other hand, the ending of Mark contains portions that appear to go beyond the rest of the NT such as the drinking of poison and not being harmed. Plus, the “and these signs will accompany those who believe…” [v 17 NIV] makes it sound as though signs should be expected and, if not, ‘conversions’ (belief) should be doubted. Does this mean all believers should drink poison to verify true salvation?, i.e., if unharmed then the individual is a true convert and, if not…oh well!

    Of the 3 commentaries I have on the Gospel of Mark [Robert H. Stein BECNT, David Garland NIVAC, and Craig A. Evans, WBC] only Evans’ work comments on the actual text of 9-20. However, frustratingly, he compares to other Biblical texts to show possible parallels, but he does not explain/expound the text and does not reach the conclusion I have above re: poison. Evans merely shows that this could be an illusion to Paul getting bitten by the snake in Acts 28:3-6 and remaining unharmed.

    My point on this is that it’s quite obvious that getting bitten by poisonous snakes and remaining unharmed is not normative. Of course, God can and I’m sure has over the centuries protected some who’ve been bitten by poisonous snakes. It’s just not something we can expect as an everyday occurence such that we can “test God” with it.

  59. Charlotte says:

    Craig: Wow, I’m fascinated of how willing you are to dig deep!! May God bless you in your continuous study of this.

    I agree that those two (drink poison, pick up snakes) is not something that is confirmed by other verses or practices in the Bible – only one thing I can think of is Paul being bitten by the snake and he was not affected to Malta-Islanders surprise.->again God got all the glory and the Islanders opened up and received the gospel…

    Is there any history of poisoning of the early church? I know it was “common” in the Roman Empire.

    I must admit that I have thought of it like: it’s maybe a reason we were taught to ask God to bless our food before we eat, because it may be poisonous/gone bad (That was more likely before maybe, or among the poorer arias of the world today) but with the blessing of God He may protect us from that? I might be naïve /childlike but doesn’t Jesus encourages us to receive Him/his words like a child? :) At least it is a simple way to teach a new believer to be depending of God, and to always remember His souverenity before every meal.

    As You understand – I also like this verses, And even if they don’t make this meaning to me that I ‘should’ drink poison, one day me or my friend may end up trying to be poisoned – and it all would make perfectly sense :) Is there many taking this verses literally? I remember I saw pictures of a “church” full of snakes…well…I guess it is few of those.

    What do you think about my spelling – I used Word this time ;)

  60. Craig says:

    Is your native tongue Norwegian? If so, your English is WAY better than my Norwegian!

  61. Charlotte says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_with_Signs_Following

    Ok…there is a Pentecostal movement doing this…Shocking! That is really taking the scriptures too far…

    Sad sad sad…

  62. Charlotte says:

    He he, Craig! That’s a way of putting it :)

  63. Arwen4CJ says:

    where did the idea of something called “religious spirit” come from anyway? It seems a lot in the NAR crowd talk about it. The pastor at the Vineyard church in my hometown talked about it (the one who suggested that I was an ‘elder brother.’ I think the new one from my graduate school town talked about it, too.

    No one seemed to question that there isn’t a warning about a ‘religious spirit’ in the Bible. It seems like they are using it as a blanket statement for anyone who is intellectual/discerning about their faith (by that I mean, not accepting every wind of doctrine, questioning things that are against Scripture — basically anyone who doesn’t go along with everything in the NAR world.)

    They also seem to hate the term “religion” or “religious” — using those terms with negative connotations for anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

  64. cherylu says:

    Has anyone else thought about the irony of it all? A “religious spirit” is a terrible thing to have. And as Arwen said, that seems to be anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Yet one of their constant battle cries is to “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” Without discernment and testing, how in the world is one to do that anyway? But when one does follow their command and “spit out the bones” they are then lambasted as having a religious spirit!!

    Talk about circular and impossible!

  65. Craig says:

    cherylu,

    Yes, good point on the circular logic. To me this seems to be a by-product of post-modernism.

    And, the thing is, the term religious merely means pertaining to a particular belief or religion. By definition, if one believes and adheres to any particular practice of faith, whether true or false, one is being religious. For example, if someone believes that ‘carpet time’ (whether rolling around, barking like a dog, etc.) is serving God, then this is an example of being religious.

  66. Charlotte says:

    Craig:
    I so agree. At the same time I know we do not want to be ignorant of how Jesus rebuked the Pharisees(The number one people that “manifested the religious spirits” as they say) about only reading the word but not living it out. They were the men full of knowledge of the scriptures, but Jesus introduced us to a life lived by the Spirit with fruits that would glorify God. “The Word alone kills, but the Spirit makes it alive” (free after my memory) But like how it becomes when the critical voice is never heard, we shut out everything because we are afraid of quenching the Spirit.

    I must say – if I had found sites like I just saw called “wretched”, – before I read this blog or the “beyond grace” I would be offended to listening to the facts because of the tone in the program. The facts in the show may be true, and I agree with the critics now, but unless I do not recognize any concerns for those into this or any respect for those who are preaching out of their conviction we I would have a hard time to listen to the rest.

    I actually struggle with this question for myself now. In these times of Twitter and Facebook it is easy just to put out a quote from Bill Johnson or Mike Bickle…like I have done already with a question mark added to it. Also in talking with people, I can easily mention names that I think preach heresy. So my question is how we can remain respectful to those that one time got a calling from God, still expose the herecy. I’ve got a good reply from my friend saying that she wonder if it is not so good to mention names on facebook. (have done it less than 10 times the last year :) ) I think it is very good with sites like this where everything is seriously discussed – but would we “hurt the cause” by posting on facebook – like I reacted when I watched “wretched”- than to inform the masses to make them aware of this wave of “new apostolic religion”, sorry reformation ;) I might scare people away from me?

    I also ask, because many that are not so into this third wave that I was, may not understand the danger. They would maybe be affected with some of the false teaching, but some may be young in their faith, full of youthful zeal. And they may live their whole life with a healthy outcome. Even a friend of mine that love IHOP, and she is full of compassion serving as a missionary and really helping the poorest, preaching to and helping the prostitutes – Does she need to be aware of the danger, when she already has a healthy relationship with Jesus (as far as I see, reading from her newsletters?)

    Do you have any thoughts about this?

  67. Craig says:

    Charlotte,

    You’ve hit on one of the things that really annoys me in some so-called “discernment ministries” – the extreme rhetoric. There are some which do a very good job and discuss the facts and only sparingly use sarcasm or things of the sort while others are close to if not downright libelous/slanderous. All this does is polarize, in my opinion, and futher alienate those they may be trying to reach. That is, unless the point really is to poke fun and elevate oneself over the others. Perhaps some are somehow led back to Truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. I dunno.

    I would be careful not to state on twitter of facebook that someone is teaching heresy unless you can provide links which definitively show this to be so. “Heresy” is, to use a a colloquialism, ‘fightin’ words’. Thinking out loud, you can state something like “I’m concerned about ___________________’s doctrine” or something like that perhaps. Adding a link to an article you think points out the problem I’d think would be effective.

    I’d say everyone needs to be made aware of the dangers of IHOP and Bethel and the rest of the Third Wave. But, we must use tact in order to reach these folks.

    Interesting thing regarding the Pharisees: they did not adhere to the Word instead living by their own extra-Biblical tradition in addition to the Law while excluding “the more important parts” of the Law [Matthew 23:23]. In many ways Third Wave leaders are like the Pharisees as compared to those of us who actually stick to orthodoxy instead. The Pharisees had their doctrine all messed up!

  68. Pingback: Bill Johnson’s Christology: A New Age Christ?, part IV (Conclusion) « CrossWise

  69. Craig says:

    I see that in the search criteria used to get to CrossWise there’s an interest in the “man-child” as evidenced by this question:

    will jesus rebirth again through the man child at revelation 12

    The answer is an emphatic NO! Acts 1:10-11 addresses that very issue:

    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” [NIV]

    The “men dressed in white” were angels. Jesus will return just as He Ascended as from Acts 1:9:

    9…He was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

    He will NOT be ‘birthed again’ or come in and through His ‘body’ of believers. That doctrine is a lie that comes from the hordes of hades!

  70. IWTT says:

    @Charlotte,

    Actually if you look at the Greek and the definitions of the words used in this verse as authored by the Holy Soirit through Peter you will see that the definition for heresy

    2 Peter 2
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    False Prophets and Teachers
    2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

    Heresy -
    1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city

    2) choosing, choice

    3) that which is chosen

    4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)

    a) of the Sadducees

    b) of the Pharisees

    c) of the Christians

    5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

    Are those who are being accused of heresy fit any of this? If so they are heretics, but the verse actually calls them false teachers/prophets that teach damnible heresy.

  71. Charlotte says:

    Thank you both for good input!!

  72. Oskar Abley says:

    Hello brothers and sisters,
    Someone recently said that anyone that uses that language is a crack pot, well I’m a big boy who does appreciate his brothers and sisters in a world that is in a lot of trouble that needs Christ.

    I would like to add a comment based on the discussion with Francis Franjipani, (spelling?).

    I was raised a catholic but became saved in a latter rain church and for some that is proof of being a first blood relatioon to uncle Nutsy, however..

    Many good comments have been made in the MSoG, Bride company etc. Firstly let me say that Rev 12 is a woman which the catholics claim as Mary but has a son who goes straight to heaven and she then goes into the Wilderness for three and a half years which then is the beginning of the Antichrist reign. Okay half of the seven I dont mind but the point is that this is very late eschatology.

    Did the Lord have a picture of salvation in the experience and latter feast of Passover, of course it is pain in the new testament. What of Pentecost and Tabernacle? The pentecostals would say yes for Pentecost, but what of Tabernacles

    Lets go at this from a different perspective and come back to this point. In the Passover experience, that is those today who have been born again through belief and repentance (and declaration and baptism and and) no I am not saying if you are not baptised you are not saved but it is also not optional, just like Moses tabernacle showing the same thing after the Alter where blood was shed for the sin of the people the next thing we came to is the brazen laver full of water, and then into the tent.

    But I have digressed, there are those who faithfully wait on God and open heartedly worship adore and obey him, oh yes and see his face oh yes and wait on him, and in Australia the fires dim down to the point where the cross is no longer included neither is hell and God is a higher power in places that once were called Methodists and Prespetarians. Now the sprukers of a social gospel. Thank the Lord not all but some churches no longer represents the church of the new testament with inhabitants of some who will not find their name in the book of life.

    The reason I have put this hear is because exactly the same thing is true of Pentecost and Tabernacle churches. As different the teaching from a good mainline evangelical church is to a good mainline Pentecostal church is the same level of difference, actually greater between Pentecost and Tabernacles.

    So I see things said about Tabernacle churches or churches that believe that Christ will have a bride that will not include all of christondem which is strong and difficult teaching to digest to the same based teaching that includes flesh and the demonic.

    We would use the phase throwing the baby out with the bath water, now back to the point.
    In Ephesians 4 we see that the five fold ministry brings the church to perfection, NIV maturity, it then describes it as to the full stature of Christ. In other places he will have a church that is pure without spot or blemish, if as a little study will show this is a process even James 1 is a candidate for support for this point, then as a process we are not talking justification, secondly if this woman that goes into the Wilderness, at the beginning of Christs reign after giving birth to the man child, then their are other Christians contrary to much Pentecostal teaching because immediately after she goes the antichrist turns to kill all those who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Those who refused to pay the price of death to the flesh to take on his nature.

    What makes me such an expert on eschatology, rather than answer that which would prove nothing, I would like to ask that you believe that I love the body of Christ passionately.

    I was talking to a young girl who was in a bike gang scene for ten years and said to her that there are Christians who would be willing to lay down their lives for other Christians that they had not even met. I did explain it may be in a country where the word of God is opposed, a friend of the family who started vineyard in Belgium now reports that it is extremely difficult to get government approval for a building to be used for Christian purposes. And that is in the free world.

    What I am saying is that the word of God contains more than we have at our finger tips right now, I have studied for many years and would suggest that only 5% or so of commentaries or theological works is anointed to assist in the saving and maturing of souls, most of it is ego and flesh or dead or dead wrong unfortunately.

    I think most of us are aware that we are near the end somewhere, may I ask as I place this post to you that like we have been requested, let us wait on God, watch and prey. I actually mean that we set time aside every day or week alone and with friends and wait on God and listen rather than doing all the talking and watch. If we do this it is my conviction that the Lord will bring revelation concerning his word not so that we can win theological battles but rather we will love even as we are loved including loving each other and win the spiritual battles.

    I wish to encourage you to be open to the move of God which as we know can be like a still small voice. This message is sent with the love of the Lord for my brothers and sisters in Christ hoping and believing that as we turn our face towards him, he will direct our steps in these final hours.

    Regards Oskar.

  73. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    You wrote, “So I see things said about Tabernacle churches or churches that believe that Christ will have a bride that will not include all of christondem which is strong and difficult teaching to digest to the same based teaching that includes flesh and the demonic.

    Yes, excluding all the saints who’ve come before the final generation is “a strong and difficult teaching” – a false one. Are we to believe that Jesus is only returning for a perfected living ‘church’ and none of those who are the “dead in Christ” [1 Thess 4:15-16] will make the cut?

  74. Oskar Abley says:

    Hi Craig,

    Thanks for your response, lets address the last question first. It is my understanding that those who died believing for the bride company or those who were committed to do what it takes to be what the Lord wants in the sense of entering into the closest relationship will not miss out on the bride company.

    Looking at your comment, a false teaching, well you must admit that there is great evangelicals and apostate ones, and great or at least once great Pentecostal moves and obviously the new Liberal Pentecostal Emergent Church showing that both Evangelical and Pentecostals range from good to appalling why not Tabernacles?

    The issue is that there will be a bride that will be without spot nor blemish and if my understanding of where we are at right now is that the feast of Trumpets which heralds in the full feast of Tabernalces has started it is a call of the Holy Spirit to all who would seek the face of God to come out of the world, to dwell in tents in other words put their mortgages second to the call of Go, in fact all things will need to come second to the call of God. Not just in the lives of those who see themselves as full time ministry but all the hold to the actual Lordship of Christ in their lives.

    It is my conviction that this call is going out right now and has been for some time. there is no reason in the world why anybody cannot be part of this company. Will we sell out to Christ or will we compromise and make excuses on why we will not obey the leading of the Holy spirit to die to self that the nature of Christ may be fully manifest in us.

    I am not sure but am fearful that we have entered the time of the great falling away, Bill Johnston’s teaching is that we need not repent to be saved as I understand it from the churches that are preaching his message in Australia. I believe that if there is no repentance there is no salvation. I have spoken to many leaders both in Australia and in the states and they all apart from a very small number say that it is legalism to hold to this view.

    One poor paster, in Knox in Melbourne said and please understand this is exactly the content which was discussed for two hours, he said that conviction of sin is nothing other than condemnation. Conviction is condemnation. After talking about the need for holiness he stated that the pursuit of holiness is legalism and that I did not understand the new revelation of Gods grace. In the old days we just used to call this greasy grace, but this has gone to a whole new level.

    There is much about the end i do not know, however as you may say to an evangelical to embrace the baptism of the spirit to be Pentecostal, I as gently as I know how encourage the Pentecostal to realise that this is only part of the Journey.

    If we consider the old testament feasts Passover was when the Children of Israel left Egypt, fifty days later or so they arrive at Sinai, which believe it or not is the basis for the Feast of Pentecost. Entering the promised land did not happen for 40 more years and everyone that did not believe died in the desert. when the children finally did enter, they then had to battle for each town or city and of course face giants. In this example the basis of the feast of Pentecost is less than 1% of the journey. However this is not fair as the feasts were celebrated over seven months, as we shal see in a moment, if the spies had come back with a positive report then the trip from Sinia would have been more than the trip from Egypt however would have fitted nicely with Pentecost being three sevenths of the journey or another way of looking at it is fifty days to Sinia another seventy to the Jordan which has a name that translates as death to the flesh or decent into death or some such thing. When we add the fifty with the seventy we have 120 which is the number for the end of all flesh.

    It is not my intent to go into all the meanings of the numbers but again some study will show that everytime we have a number in scripture new or old testament it relates to the same thing.

    If I may look at this a little closer, the Passover was in the first month of the religious year, Pentecost was in the third and Tabernacles was in the seventh. You may realise that seven represents end times or perfection. The key thing with regard to these feasts at least from my perspective was not only was there not two, but three but also that the Passover had three sub feasts, Pentecost was a little on in the middle and Tabernacles was again a feast that had three sub feasts. The first sub feast or part of the large feast of Tabernacles in Trumpets. I have been hearing the call to holiness from the likes of David Wilkerson and people from SermonIndex and many others there has also been a world wide move against holiness and even repentance or as many would believe against salvation.

    What I see with regard to Trumpets is as clear as day, it seems that the counterfeit is making more headway at the moment, and yes we may be in the great falling away, where one third loose their salvation, be selling out the truth to buy a lie, but the thing that is also clear is that regardless of where we are or what we currently believe is that God will have a people who will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked way then……

    This is not time to be religious or to say the pastor will lead us he will pray for us, remember when the Lord called all Israel up the mountain it was the people who said NO let Moses go up for us, the Lord in his anger then said if that is what you want to abrogate your relationship with me, my words but think that will find support with study, then I now put a fence up and anyone who crosses it will be speared.

    Ephesians 4 has a group of men whose function it is to raise the entire church up to the full stature of Christ, not all will head the call, it is not for an elect few who have secret knowledge it is for anyone who will come to the cross put their lives on the alter regardless of teaching, it is the heart condition that will include people. My fear has been to be included in those people who say Lord Lord etc but he says I never knew you. Now is the time to seek his face, it does not matter whether you agree with me or not, however if the Holy spirt is gently urging us to come out of the world, this is not the difficult thing as I often say, It is easy to hear the voice of God, as Yongi Cho would agree it is the obeying that proves our heart.

    I hope you find this food for thought, I am happy to reason together but teh years have shown me that fighting doctrine brings not one glory but the enemy. Not all of what I believe is true nor do I see the full picture, however this I know that what is coming will make anything we hold dear, like my love for the welsh revival where people sort the face of God and it is reported that their was lights visible over the houses, churchs reported as being on fire time after time only to find people praying inside, however what is coming will blow away many of our preconceived ideas or hobby horse doctrines or biases, I just pray that I, my family my church and as many as my brothers and sisters will both hear and respond to the call of God to stop playing church and get real with him. In Australia we have around 2 -3 % are Christian and we are hated for being homophobic as well as intolerant of all sorts of sin.

    Change is coming let us be part of it, if it feels good to the flesh and hates holiness I can tell you this is not God. If there is a call to deal with stuff in your life to grow as a Christian and to fix up your witness in the community this will be God.

    I do look forward to your response.

    Regards Oskar.

  75. Craig says:

    The issue is that there will be a bride that will be without spot nor blemish…

    And, when does this occur?

    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    “Hallelujah!
    For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
    7 Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear.”
    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s people.)

    9 Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” [Rev 19:6-9, TNIV]

    This is after the Church (bride / body of Christ / collective sheep, etc.) is on the other side of glory.

    It is my understanding that those who died believing for the bride company or those who were committed to do what it takes to be what the Lord wants in the sense of entering into the closest relationship will not miss out on the bride company.

    I’d like to see you quote any who are teaching this particular doctrine something specifically related to this. Everything I’ve seen points to a ‘victorious collective living bride’ (i.e., not physically dead) with one evidence a tweet by Bill Johnson, “Jesus is returning for a bride whose body is in equal proportion to her head” [see here]

    So, what is the problem with “Tabernacles”? I’m assuming you are referring to George Warnock’s teaching on this – a teaching that certain overcomers become fully manifested sons of ‘God’ this side of glory, an invincible group who’ve received their glorified bodies prior to our heavenly destination. The teaching that we become, in essence, one (collective) new man. This teaching parallels New Age teaching [see posts here: http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ/ including all parts – the last part draws the most parallels].

    I hope you find this food for thought, I am happy to reason together but teh years have shown me that fighting doctrine brings not one glory but the enemy.

    So, whose “fighting doctrine”; are you “fighting” with my doctrine? Your statement cuts both ways. Or, do I have to just accept the views put forth by the hyper-charismatics so as not to be seen as “fighting doctrine”?

    If you really think that we at some point will be “raised up to the full stature of Christ”, i.e. attain to exact Christlikeness, i.e. become virtual Gods ourselves, you are seriously deluded. That’s exactly what New Agers think.

    …My fear has been to be included in those people who say Lord Lord etc but he says I never knew you…

    That’s a valid fear. Yet, let’s look at the passage:
    ____
    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    True and False Disciples

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ [Mat 7:15-22, TNIV]
    ____

    Note that the verbiage you reference follows the section on false prophets and, most importantly, that these people claim to perform charismata, miracles “in your [Jesus'] name”. This seems to point to hyper-charismatics (I’m not suggesting all charismatics are false prophets/wolves, of course).

    …I just pray that I, my family my church and as many as my brothers and sisters will both hear and respond to the call of God to stop playing church and get real with him. In Australia we have around 2 -3 % are Christian and we are hated for being homophobic as well as intolerant of all sorts of sin.

    Amen to that. But, we are to do this regardless of the current world climate. Yes, it is getting increasingly difficult to live a true Christian life (including the USA) without being labeled with all sorts of pejorative terms. We have to stand firm to the Word of Truth, keeping in mind that our struggle is not against flesh and blood (Eph 6:10-18).

    Change is coming let us be part of it, if it feels good to the flesh and hates holiness I can tell you this is not God. If there is a call to deal with stuff in your life to grow as a Christian and to fix up your witness in the community this will be God.

    Of course, I don’t disagree with this as this is absolutely Scriptural. No Christian “hates holiness”; but, that doesn’t mean we are to be of ‘false humility’ as I see some. However, all this does not mean one has to adhere to the “Tabernacles” teaching. Let’s not make the Word of God into some hyper-spiritual thing that it is not. Let’s live by the Spirit; let’s be led of the Spirit and not our flesh (Gal 5:16-26).

    Bottom line is that Jesus Himself is the one who fulfills Scripture. He is the “Passover Lamb”. Let’s not make the Word more complicated by inventing, or adhering to, a man-made doctrine. Pentecost was fulfilled in Acts 2 with the permanent indwelling in the individual believer.

    I am not sure but am fearful that we have entered the time of the great falling away, Bill Johnston’s teaching is that we need not repent to be saved as I understand it from the churches that are preaching his message in Australia…

    In my strong opinion, based upon the research I’ve done and posted on this site, Bill Johnson is part of the great falling away. Where do you find Bill Johnson teaching repentance and salvation in the true Christian sense? I don’t see Johnson actually preaching the Cross unto salvation. But, I do see Johnson teaching a New Age-ish (or outrightly New Age) version of repentance:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/learning-etymology-with-bill-johnson-a-new-age-repentance/

  76. Oskar Abley says:

    Hi Craig, Yes I was indicating support for George Warnock and the missnamed latter rain revival of the 40′s in Canada. And Yes I do not support Bill Johnston or any of the greasy grace kritters that refuse repentance as necessary for salvation or the existence of hell.

    However as your focus is whether there is a bride or not, I am happy to spend time sharing my understanding, however it is from the view point of saying first that not all that comes from the Latter Rain move is as screwy as Johnston. I do support Francis Frangipani however he does not believe in an actual sinless church, I do. And believe that it can be clearly seen in scripture however we would need to find agreement on the second baptism before moving on the third feast.

    I confess to being ashamed at attending a church group being Pentecostal that focuses on how hard and quick you can be pushed or tripped up to put you on the floor. Sorry guys but much of that is flesh and control and you dont need a gift of discernment to work that out. there is a current focus on Prosperity like Joel Osteen who says if you are in church then you are right with God. On youtube he is talking to Larry King and states that he does not know if Mormons go to heaven, nor Muslims, with a statment that says, Well I cant see into a mans heart. what a load of bunkum, the scripture which he states he does not read is clear enough on the need to accept Jesus as Saviour and that he is the only way and door and that no one comes to the father but by me.

    It would be easy to put forward a case to say that there is nothing of substance except hollow froth and bubble, error and what is really nothing other than coerrsion theft and sexual sin.

    Having said that I went to a Baptist church in Melbourne that spruked being gay friendly from the perspective of allowing to have communion or even have a place in ministry. When talking with one of the church board members he said I would never be so arrogant as to say that the Muslims were wrong. I said to him then what would you say to the satanists then, he hummed and harrd for a while and then said no they would not be included so I said if you have a line in the sand as to who goes to heaven and who does not why not use the bible to determine the answer. Sorry but it seemed relevant to show what I thought could never happen, a baptist becoming apostate. In our prayer group which is a Baptist one, the Pastor was asked to attend and state clearly his perspective on Gay marriage. The conversation turned to Bill Johnstons repentance free salvation as it is sweeping the earth like the black death. I stated to him if a person does not repent then he is not saved, and if not saved then goes to hell. He shrunk back in his seat with a sudden twist in his face and declared that we cannot know where people go.

    I responded that I was talking about the then need to be saved not to go to hell, again he could not embrace the subject.

    What am I saying, just that there is, again, good and bad in every move of God. With regard to the perfect church let us consider Pentecost from another persepctive than that of the cessationist view point. My experiences have been nothing short of amazing, a few weeks ago in a prayer meeting I was given a picture of a water fall coming over a desert that quickly turned the desert into a sea of flowers meaning that the holy spirit was going to cause the church to bring forth growth and fruit. Later when the meeting had started, the pastors wife, a conservative quite ex baptist, come up toward the microphone. At that time I had what is called a word of knowledge, I knew not only that she was going to give the same message but knew it to the point that it was a certainty, I even considered going to the front to confirm what she was about to say before she said it but thought that would be showboating and decided to keep my mouth shut and just watch her deliver her vision.

    Note I had not spoken to her I had not seen her give a vision before and had no outside indication of any description either by activiy or knowledge of what she was likely to do, and it was not one of the key directions or boring lingering statments that hang around a church for months either. This was brand new.

    She gets up and says that she has just had a vision from God, she then goes onto say that she has seen a vast water fall on what looked like Lake Eyer she is from that region. The area is a vast flat salt lake, she said it looked like that, what I saw was a vast flat desert, she said as the water fall came down the whole area broke into flowers and completely full of flowers, she said that she then saw vines and trees grow up.

    Again by the way, the church I attend is Pentecostal almost in name only this is not usual. Later that week at one of the womens prayer meetings, someone who had not been to church nor knew of my vision, said that they saw a large rock in the desert and that it split open and water poured forth and if I remember right she also said the desert broke forth into flowers, the following week there was two more, one was from one of the leaders who had heard the vision the previous week. This is just one experience that I pass on as true for you to consider. This is not the false stories of millions of angel feathers twirling up to heaven or steel hips falliing out of peoples bodies. I am not saying God cannot do that but it has not been my experience.

    A mate which is the only way to describe this guy who is a rough diamond, after many years with YWAM as a camera man, he was always a bit foot loose and fancy free, loved a beer
    today he tells a story that I find completly credible. He said that when he would go with teh team into the villages to pray for people often God would miraculously heal people, he commented that even those who had just joined the team, teenagers or those not in “ministry” God would heal everyone using everyone. He states that as he prayed for an old man with a hand missing he to his complete astonishment saw the hand grow back infront of his eyes. He said it happened with everyone.

    Richard Holland the man that started Waverly Christian Fellowship is a man I knew well. He was a great man of faith, and a praying man, on his coffee table was a book on John G Lake. He was one day on one side of the states and remembers at ten minuites to ten that he has missed a meeting tha he was supposed to speak to and apologised to the Lord the next thing he knows is he is walking up the steps to this church.

    I could also tell you of a personal experience that may get you to consider that things can be different from the position of the evangelical cessasionist position. I invite you to contact me directly on my email.

    Your loving brother in Christ. Oskar.

  77. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    I’m going to have to respond a bit later as I’m running a bit behind this morning and will have a rather busy day at work. But quickly:

    - I’m not a cessationist; but, I am very concerned about all the goofy excesses in hyper-charismaticism.

    - John G. Lake has written some very disturbing/heretical things.

    - I do believe that all Christians – past (that is, deceased), present and yet future – are the bride of Christ (in a figurative sense) / body of Christ, sheep, etc.

  78. just1ofhis says:

    This is a portion of the latest off the desk of Bob Jones (available on his website and Elijah’s list). I think it highlights the danger of a Biblical view that is looking for a “perfected body of Christ” on this side. It misses the point that our righteousness, and that of the entire church for the last 2000+ years, has been ALREADY found in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    “Bob and Bonnie Jones:

    Midwives Birth Children of Promise

    Clear Word to the Church

    Recently I heard the Lord say, “I’m stirring the waters of intercession over this Body to bring forth new life and life in abundance, and I will pour out My Spirit on those who walk in obedience to My Word. Let no man say I am weak, for where two or more are gathered lo, I am with you” (Matthew18:20).

    Women are going to come together as “midwives” in intercession and will travail till this birth takes place. Midwives are typically women who offer care to childbearing women during pregnancy, labor and birth. They offer support, care and advice for the mother and family. The Church has been pregnant too long and her labor has been difficult, but the baby’s head is crowning now and about to emerge into the glorious light of the Lord.

    These midwives will deliver the children of promise. These children are the Isaacs coming forth, and they’re coming to receive their long awaited birthright! All the blessings God gave Abraham were also given to his descendants. Isaac is the natural son of promise and we are Abraham’s descendants according to faith (Hebrews 11:12).”

    So, the “lord” told Bob Jones that the church had been “pregnant” for too long and now the midwives are coming to deliver the “children of promise” (i.e., the “perfected church”). What does he think God has been doing through His church for 2000 years?

    The true children of promise, so to speak, are all believing and repentant Christians for all time. They will inherit the Kingdom of God.

    The Bible does not ever speak of a “super generation” of believers who conquer satan; but it does speak of great end time delusion and falling away. It also clearly states that it is Jesus Christ who will overthrow satan with His Coming. Over and over again we are warned to “test everything” and “to take care that we are not deceived”. Jesus stated clearly that the love of most would grow cold and that wickedness would multiply. He stated that many would fall away.

    Our humble prayer today ought to be as Jesus instructed in Luke 21:36:

    “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

  79. Craig says:

    AMEN! Our righteousness is already in Christ only. We are pure and spotless by HIS shed blood as propitiation for our collective sins.

    Seems like Jones and the hyper-charismatics want to induce labor on this “birth”. Interestingly, and maybe not coincidentally, New Ager Barbara Marx Hubbard has claimed that “Mother Earth” is pregnant (back in March) and she’s due on December 22 (perhaps also not coincidentally, this is Marx Hubbard’s birthday), the day after Winter Equinox/Solstice:

    http://theoptimist.com/magazine/(view_issue_story_detail)/23642

    http://birth2012.com/

    This will bring forth homo universalis, or Universal Man.

  80. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    As I have a few minutes’ break, I skimmed through Warnock’s book. His bold sub-titles assist in finding material. Here’s a bit from page 42:

    The full and complete Atonement was made for the race by Jesus Christ on the Cross, there is no doubt whatsoever. But it is only too evident, as we consider our own individual lives, as well as that of the historical Church, that we have never really appropriated any real measure of the great atoning work on the Cross…

    I see, so WE have more to “appropriate”; when Jesus said “it is finished” it’s not really “finished”. We must do more work. I thought is was a free gift by faith.

    This sounds not unlike New Age ideals – a works-based religion based upon Christ as exemplar.

    Continuing:

    …And it is this experimental appropriation of the Atonement that the Church must now enter into…

    You see, Oskar, it’s that right there. The “Church” must “enter into” this now. By inference, this excludes those who’ve died earlier who just didn’t yet “appropriate any real measure of the great atoning work on the Cross”.

    …As there is the historic Pentecost experience, as well as an individual Pentecost experience for all who will believe for it, so it is with the Atonement….

    Blah, blah, blah. Warnock goes on to claim we’ve not yet fully appropriated our own sinlessness. This is totally congruent with the New Age idea that we pave our own way to ultimate salvation using Jesus Christ’s example as our guide. As Bill Johnson states ad nauseum “Jesus is our model”.

    This is demonic doctrine promoting self as ‘god’.

  81. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    Actually, your idea “that those who died believing for the bride company or those who were committed to do what it takes to be what the Lord wants in the sense of entering into the closest relationship will not miss out on the bride company” can conceivably be true. It works if one believes in the “ongoing incarnation of Christ”, i.e. reincarnation. The dead have been ‘reincarnated’ and will eventually be ‘perfected’. Once again, a New Age belief.

  82. Oskar Abley says:

    Craig, The doctrine does not promote self as God, however scripture clearly says that Christ is to be our model, Ephesian 4 says the function of the five fold ministry is to assist us to grow to the full stature. What do we do with that to satisfy your needs, tear it out? Its not the only one either.
    Not sure how you read that but i cant see how we are God by growing up to be the fullness of him. Maybe the distinction is a little difficult to understand.

    There are many who had no understanding of the difference between JUSTIFICATION and the PROCESS of SANCTIFICATION. You have made some statements about new age and names of people whom I do not know however may I suggest you have a look at Justification and Sanctification, this is the same error Bill Johnston is promoting that we once saved can do what we like because God sees us as perfect. THey say our righteousness does not matter, if you see our level of Sanctification the same as our position in Justification then we can go haywire and it does not matter a bean. This is there position surely it is not your too?

    I notice you have not responded to the visions, that people have had based on your responses I was a little surprised that you have not suggested we were all on acid. How people could have had the same vision without the others knowing. This is a true even that I have shared with you and it is recent.

    You seem to have some anger problems, I am going to leave you with them. However think again if you are an evangelical and passover represents salvation, don’t you think that the other feasts would represent something too?

    I invited you to a private discussion however you have chosen not to, what Warnock is saying is just as there is a second experience to enter into there is a third as well.

    Incarnation is not reincarnation, have you ever heard a sermon about the word of God becoming flesh, the word of God in you replacing the carnel flesh, I am sure many evangelicals would preach this. I think Paul Washer is a Baptist he would preach incarnation, as opposed to Hindu reincarnation, the incarnation is whilst we are alive, unlike JUSTIFICATION SANCTIFICATION is a process and believe it or not there is an end game in mind. Elisha followed Elijah through the desert the first place they came to was Gilgal or going round the mountain, you would know many people who cannot find victory in their lives and keep going round the mountain, however when they eventualy moved to Bethel, house of God and the sons of the prophets gave Elisha carnal advice and told him to avoid the trials, again we would have to rip out James Peter and a lot of scripture to want the disney gosple.

    They ended after Jericho again leaving a group of carnel prophets and notice there were 50 that come out, as you may know 50 represents Pentecost, It was Elisha that was prepared to pay the full price and leave the comforts of home and enter into a desert experience. It was only when the got to Jordan whih is the final step, its meaning is akin to decent into death, that he was asked what he wanted.

    He asked for a double portion of the anointing, do we rip Joel out of the book too?

    After Elisha come back he litteraly did twice the number of miracles. Not that that is the focus but being obedient to face the trials to grow. I find conversation better than attack, you can call me a heretic devil if you wish, I recognise you as a brother in Christ. I will wait for you to call me in the future if you wish I will no longer respond to this as it is turing into a slanging match I have no interest in having a slaning match and wil leave you to make any statements you wish. My email is still open should you wish to chat at some time.

    All the best from Australia Oskar

  83. Craig says:

    Oskar,

    At this point I’ve chosen to put our conversation in the open as I want both you and others to see the error and danger of Warnock’s work.

    Justification is our intitial entrance into the Christian life. We are justified by faith. Sanctification is the work the Holy Spirit does in us as we submit to His promptings. The process of sanctification continues only to the extent we submit. The process of sanctification is not complete until we attain our new non-flesh bodies (I Cor 15:44-57) which, importantly, only occurs at the Rapture / Jesus Christ’s physical return / eschaton (end of the age) [all dependent upon one's specific view of eschatology - in line w/Scripture]. There is no “resurrection life” this side of glory as Johnson, Bentley and other hyper-charismatics claim. Similarly, there is no “resurrection life” as Warnock claims – which is essentially the same teachings as Johnson, Bentley.

    I believe if you read Bill Johnson closely you’ll see his views regarding sinlessness and sanctification are in alignment with Wanock’s which are both of the New Order of the Latter Rain. If you read this article, you’ll see that Johnson believes we have to progress in “repentance” – which is his (and Theosophists/New Agers) lingo for “sanctification” in the sense of attaining “the mind of ‘God’”, i.e. perfection.

    Jesus Christ is the one who puts all under His feet (1 Cor 15:20-28). The Church has no part in this. Our part is to preach the Gospel with the goal of soul-winning. Yet it is not our skills, or lack thereof, in preaching the Gospel which leads to salvation; it’s the Holy Spirit who brings conviction. We are privileged to partner with God in preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified, yet it’s the Holy Spirit who ultimately convicts. [See here.]

    You wrote, “I notice you have not responded to the visions, that people have had based on your responses I was a little surprised that you have not suggested we were all on acid. How people could have had the same vision without the others knowing. This is a true even that I have shared with you and it is recent.

    I don’t believe in subjectivism but, instead, objective Truth in the Word of God. Individuals can well have the same vision/dream without the other being aware as familiar spirits can communicate this sort of thing to multiple individuals, even Christians. Unless said vision fully aligns with the Word of Truth, I pay it little mind. I don’t deny God can and does use visions as potentially individual ‘prophecy’; but, I do not believe He will do this in such a way that a particular vision is for the whole of the Church as if we’d have to append these new visions to the backs of our Bibles as Scripture, as being “God-breathed” (2 Tim 3:16). God has spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ (Heb 1:1-2). The Canon of Scripture is closed.

    My “anger problems” as you see them is/are righteous indignation over false teachings and those who propound them. You are one such individual. I won’t have an individual promoting false/heretical teachings on this blog without standing up to them. It’s your choice to believe Warnock’s version or God the Word’s version.

    You wrote, “Incarnation is not reincarnation…” There is ONE Incarnation and He was the Word made flesh. God the Word condescended to take upon Himself human flesh and die in our place so that we can be saved. The term “incarnation” infers a previous existence of some sort. Not you or I have had any previous existence.

    The Word previously existed as the Word without flesh; then He became the Word enfleshed, and He is forever united to the flesh He took on in order to bring salvation to the world. That, my friend, is mind-boggling yet true, as Scripture attests to this.

    Here’s more of Warnock’s evil doctrine predicated on his distorted view that we can attain to the full stature of Christ in our earthly existence, and that we put all the enemies under our feet in order for Christ to return. This is the same old lie that’s being perpetuated by the rest of the hyper-charismatics from Bill Britton, Earl Paulk, C. Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Todd Bentley, et. al.:

    We are sure of this, however, that the Church is being robbed of her glory in not knowing that there is rapture for her even now while waiting for Rapture, and there is resurrection here and now while we wait for Resurrection. There is no doubt whatever that God holds many secrets for future revelation concerning the order of events and the nature of the Resurrrection… [p 103]

    Jesus Christ is the mystery/secret revealed. It’s all about Him. It’s not about us at all.

    Continuing:

    …But in this we are confident: before this cherished rapture of resurrection takes place, there is to arise a group of overcomers who shall appropriate even here and now their heritage of Resurrection Life in Jesus Christ. God has placed His only Begotten at His own right hand in the heavenlies until all his enemies have been placed under His feet…

    This is what I was referring to when I stated that Warnock, and Latter Rain / hyper-charismaticism, promotes self as God. It is CHRIST who puts all enemies under HIS FEET, not us:

    23 But in this order: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. [1 Cor 15:23-28, TNIV]

    OK, so when Christ returns, then we are raised (v 20-22). Q: When does the end come? A: “when He [Christ] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He [Christ] has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For He must reign until He [Christ] has put all enemies UNDER HIS FEET. Q: Whose feet? A: CHRIST’s feet. And, since it is God the Father “who put everthing under Christ” the God-man, to claim we the Church put everything under OUR feet is to usurp Christ’s place and defy God the Father, which, in effect, deifies ourselves – makes us into Gods.

    Evil, evil doctrine, that Warnock!

    Yes, Warnock goes on to claim that he doesn’t mean we receive our glorified bodies:

    …We are not inferring that the saints will go about in glorified bodies. But we are speaking of the saints reaching the very life of Christ, of entering into their heritage in the Spirit, of participating in Melchizedek priesthood and kingdom, and of living the very spotless, immaculate life of the Son of God Himself in virtue of His abiding presence within. [p 103]

    A perfect life in the here and now, eh? There is one big problem with that: Jesus Christ was not born with a fallen human nature and therefore was able to be sinless, spotless; we, on the other hand, do not somehow lose our fallen human nature once we’ve gained the Holy Spirit indwelling. However, this view is not inconsistent with New Age teaching. I suggest you read the material here to see the New Age view of things:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ-part-iv-conclusion/

    You’ll see a belief in two natures – divine and human – inside everyone, including Jesus. Jesus had ‘overcome’ his human nature and fully manifested His divine – and we can do the same if we follow His pattern. Do you see the parallel now? Do you see that Warnock’s view aligns with New Age ideology?

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