Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism – A Personal Testimony of Bethel’s Influence

[Following is a personal testimony of an individual who, under the influence of Bethel Church in Redding, CA pastored by Bill Johnson, fell into error and later was freed.  The original article in four parts can be found at inerrantword.]

A Dangerous Journey – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 1)

 

At the beginning of 2010 I decided I wanted to get involved in a more passionate “Christianity”. I have always thought of myself as a worshipper & I craved being around others who lived & breathed worshipping the Lord. 

Our church had been *pushing* & wanting revival to break out. So naturally I went home one day and decided to research about what “revival” actually was and how we could get it!  Through my discoveries I found out about The Welsh Revival, Charles Finney and others.

I wanted *revival* to break out in our church. The more I read about the “amazing” things that happened in Wales, the more I wanted that to happen to us.

A member of our church had been involved in the Brownsville Revival.  She told me many stories about the revival that happened there & the anointing that she received from there.  Whenever she went up for prayer her body would shake & eventually she would, fall to the floor.

I was curious and started looking into the information surrounding the Brownsville revival. Like the Toronto blessing, the Brownsville revival had similar manifestations of the holy spirit, and following that was the Lakeland revival.

At that time I was initially very cautious. It didn’t seem to line up with the God of the Bible I knew and I couldn’t find anything in the scriptures to back up what was happening in these places. BUT I so desperately wanted to feel God and being among passionate Christians, I thought that this was where those sorts of people were.  Some of the manifestations, including the prophetic seemed exciting and it drew me in.

Despite my initial caution & a nagging feeling of unease, I started listening to the answers that these extreme prophetic people would give to the sceptics.

Here are some of the things they said/say:

 - God was revealing new things to the church today.

 - God was moving in a way that was different & more relevant to the world now.

 - How could these things not be of God, when people were singing his praises all within the safety of a church?

 - No one can judge or dismiss the manifestations of the holy spirit, if you did then this then you were quenching the Spirit.

 - David danced in the streets and people then thought he was crazy, but he was a man after the Lord’s heart.  This meant that even though manifestations were similar to David’s dancing (disorderly behaviour) they were of God.

 - The church at Pentecost had exactly the same spirit manifestations (like drunken behaviour…because in the Bible the mockers thought they were acting drunk therefore the early church must have had drunken spirit manifestations.

 - Bill Johnson is such a kind, quietly spoken & gentle man therefore he must be a man of God.

 - People from all over are coming in droves to these churches, so its has to be good.

 - In the last days, God’s spirit will pour out on his people and this is that.

 - No-one can judge the holy spirit. If something is done in the name of the holy spirit then it must be the holy spirit.

 - Those who think that these manifestations are not of God are Pharisees (& are not open to things happening in the spirit outside of the Bible).

 - People who were outside of these movements were missing out on a special anointing from the Lord.

I became convinced by these sorts of answers. I was drawn to it, I wanted to be around enthusiastic worshippers of God and I did not want to act like a so called Pharisee. It also looked exciting.

So began my journey into the world of extreme Pentecostalism, the teachings of Bill Johnson, Bethel Church, & the music of Jesus Culture.

(Little did I know how dangerous this path was going to be)…

 

Hidden Dangers – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 2)

 

I spent months immersing myself into the Bethel Church teachings and music of Jesus Culture.

 I started engaging in what is called ‘soaking’. Soaking is a practice of opening your mind and spirit to the “lord” whilst listening to loungey “Christian” music.  I gave up reading my Bible…because I wanted new revelations from God.  I had heard mentioned in so many sermons (including writings by Rick Joyner) that the Bible was being superseded by new revelations.  The people who only read the Bible were called “wordies” and these people (the “wordies”) were setting themselves up against the new spiritual move of “god”.  The new spiritual movement was more important than the information in the Bible.  So I gave my regular bible reading and embraced soaking.

I wanted to encounter God.  I wanted something dramatic to happen, something exciting. During my soaking I would sit quietly opening my mind and heart up to the ‘presence’. I would focus on this little warm fuzzy I had in me and eventually this feeling started to get bigger and bigger. I would have this almost ecstatic feeling on call anytime I wanted it. Eventually I would just begin to start a soaking “prayer” and this feeling would come over me immediately. It made me feel “in love” with jesus. He was no longer in a position of authority or a lord on a throne, but someone I was in love with.  Someone who made me feel really good and superior.  This feeling made me feel good and I wanted more of it.

My whole world started to change…in fact I was changing more than I really knew…and not for the better.

The more I engrossed myself into Bethel church’s teachings the more passionate I became about “us” being ‘right’ and those that only followed the Bible being wrong. This set me up against my husband. My husband is a fervent student of the Word of God – quiet and humble – and so he did not embrace what I was now into.    I resented this and felt he was not good enough anymore. I wanted him to be more passionate and open to the spirit like I was. My main goal in life now was to save our money to get to a Bethel Conference so I could receive these special anointings. I was increasingly unhappy with my life the way it was. It was too boring, it didn’t excite me or make me outwardly more passionate for God. I wanted this anointing. I wanted to see the gold glitter and jewels falling from heaven. I wanted to move in the prophetic.

As you may have noticed…it had now become all about ME.

I wanted the new anointings. I wanted to be blessed by God. I wanted to give up my entire life and get into one of these churches…I even wanted to get my husband to move our entire family to Redding (where Bethel is based) so that I could be apart of this new move of God.  All I wanted was to have these good feelings I had inside all the time. The ones that made me feel “in love” and passionate about jesus. I loved how those feelings made me feel, and I wanted more of it.  No one was going to stand in my way. I knew what was right for me! I had become a loud, aggressive woman, extremely impatient and completely caught up in my own selfish ambitions. 

I could not see that this was happening.  I no longer had any time for my family, I needed this and that what was all that was important.  I couldn’t understand that my husband wasn’t able to see the great *change* in me. I needed to be soaking and listening to my Jesus Culture music.  As time went on, I started to get exceedingly rude towards my husband. I grew to be resentful towards him and completely disrespected his walk with the Lord.  I wanted him to become “great” for God by receiving the new anointing.  I was in a superior place with the Lord and I thought his bible studies were a waste of time. 

One day however I did pick up my Bible and read it.  It was during that time that I noticed something very different from what I was experiencing.  I became aware of this quiet still voice. This had become very foreign to me. It was no at all like the excited, loud experiences I was having in my soaking time. It concerned me as I could not work out in my head why this gentle, quiet voice was so different from my other experiences.

Then something happened that completely opened my eyes.

At a church gathering I started chatting to the same member that I referred to in part one on my story.  We started talking about all the amazing anointings and manifestations that were happening overseas, like the gold dust, glitter and jewels and how we wanted these things to start happening in our church.  We longed to go and attend these conferences and receive “more”. 

Then it happened.  She started telling me about this amazing “anointed” man of god, who received the glory of god.  His name was Joshua Mills.  At his conferences were all the same manifestations…she started telling me that the glory of god was so strong on this man that he had oil that drips from his body as a show of his anointing. She was amazed by this. But for I suddenly started to realise that something wasn’t right. In fact there was something very wrong with this.

I felt very uncomfortable with this. I had been raised in the Catholic church, before I became a born again believer. When I became I believer God opened my eyes very clearly to the satanic influence in that church.   The Catholic church is full of visitations from “mary”, oil dripping from their own “anointed” people, the stigmatas etc.   So when my friend started telling me about Joshua Mills and his oil dripping from this body as a sign of the glory of god, alarm bells starting ringing inside my heart!

As soon as I got home I started looking up Joshua Mills to find out more about this.  Joshua Mills is part of the Elijah List, a list of special “prophets”.  On this list included Bill Johnson, Kim Clements, Rob De Luca, Randy Clark, Cindy Jacobs, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Rodney Howard-Brown, Carol and John Arnott and so on.  Joshua Mills was a man who ran conferences and teaching classes (which you pay huge amounts of money to attend).  He ran these classes so the students could receive from him and take home his special anointing.  And sure enough, just as my church friend had said, Joshua Mills was producing oil from his skin, that was sign of the glory of god upon him.  And if it wasn’t bad enough – he was collecting his drips of oil on rags and selling it…so that people could buy and get his special anointing from the rag.

All of a sudden, like a lightning bolt, I realised what I had got myself involved.

 

Uncovering the Dark Deception – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 3)

 

After reading about Joshua Mills on the internet I started to realise exactly what I have allowed into my spirit, my heart and my life. It hit me like nothing I have ever experienced before! I had allowed a deceiving spirit into my life. A false spirit, a false jesus.

All of a sudden everything that had been covered up was uncovered.  The truth of what was my reality, my darkness was exposed. The moment of this is like nothing I can explain or give a full account of. I became completely aware of this sick, filthy darkness that had been in my life. The heaviness of the reality on my spirit was awful.  To give you an idea of what this felt like I can only explain it like this: There have been times in my life when I felt a deep darkness. Times like when I had a life before Christ. Another time was when I was a born again believer but started living in the world for myself. I got involved in immorality and it was awful and caused a deep wound in my spirit then. When I realised I had allowed a deceiving spirit into my life, it was far, far greater than anything I have ever felt when I was not a believer and when I was engaging in full blown sin as a believer. The intensity and depravity of what I had done and allowed in was so great I simply just cannot explain in words. Perhaps for me I can only liken this to what is the actual reality of the dark evil spiritual realm. What it may feel like to be in alliance with satan. One thing is sure, when the Light of God and His Truth uncovers deception nothing can hide from His glory.

I came before my husband and confessed what I had allowed into mine and our lives. I explained to him exactly how I had been deceived and the burden and heaviness on my spirit that had come from allowing this false spirit in my life. I had spent so many months desperately trying to get him into this “world”. He told me that he had been praying to God intensely for Him to reveal to either one of which of us was wrong. God answers prayer and He came through for us!

When I realised what had crept into my life, all I wanted to do was get rid of this thing as fast as possible. I was absolutely desperate to get rid of this darkness, this filth! (One can only imagine what it will feel like in hell for people who will live an eternity with this constant desperation and never be able to get rid of it and get peace).

Praise the Almighty One. Earlier that year I had visited a blog about a woman who had gone through a similar experience (visit M’Kayla’s Korner), but I thought I knew better and had not heeded her warning. Thankfully I had bookmarked her blog page and that night Nick and I sat down searching through it to help us work out how to get rid of this darkness and filth that was in my spirit. God had given this woman the insight to put an extremely helpful link to getting rid of these false spirits if you had allowed them into your life (read this here).  We printed off the pages and followed each step.  I spent a few hours in our bedroom on my own paging through the advice and looking up bible verses. 

That night I spent those hours confessing my sin and disobedience to my Lord. I confessed my lack of discernment and my own sinful willingness to expose myself to this deception and false spirit.  I was able to see that after I confessed this from my heart and made a decision to never expose myself or my family to these false spirits again I was set free! The Lord Jesus took the darkness away from my life and in place the sweetness of His Spirit returned.

 

What is a False Jesus? – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 4)

 

This false spirit, a false “jesus”, one that pleases the flesh, had been given permission by me into my life. If I knew the character of the Lord well or knew my Bible basics I would have recognized the false spirit simply by looking at what type of behaviour I was displaying when I was experiencing this “spirit”.  I would have know that the fruit of the real and true Holy Spirit  is peace, love, real joy, gentleness, self-control, humility, patience, kindness, faithfulness and goodness. If I had done this little test I would have clearly seen that I lacked gentleness, self-control, patience, peace and real love. This false spirit is very easily recognised when you do this little test. What I had allowed in my life brought out impatience, anger, rudeness, complete lack of Self-Control, chaos, flesh seeking madness, self ambition and selfish desires.

The next way to determine a false spirit is to do a quick comparison with what the God of the Bible is like in character versus the spirit you have opened yourself up to. Does it match up with what the Word of God says?

 - Who God is (a God of order and peace)

 - The order of a Church service (no chaos, no un-interpreted tongues, no more than 2 or 3 people talking in tongues and in turn (not over each other)

  – That these manifestations are similar if not the same to the strange fire offered by Aaron’s sons in Exodus

 - Leadership in the church (should be characterised by godly character: men of peace, self-control, peace, gentleness, quietness and of humility).

 - The focus of godly teaching (is leading one towards complete reliance on Jesus Christ and not on yourself or a person or a ministry)

 - People under the authority of the Lord (will display a peace, calmness, quietness and gentleness about them).

 - Dying to self and dying to flesh. The entire false spirit movement is characterised by satisfying your own flesh and carnal nature. Rather than bowing down before the Lord, it is about getting as much out as you can for yourself, getting the “anointing” for yourself, getting the “manifestations” for yourself, seeing the signs and wonders for yourself. This is completely the opposite to the life of Jesus Christ, one of complete self sacrifice and in turn the life Christians are to live. We are to beat our body/flesh to make it our slaves (1 Corinthians 9:27).  

 - The real gospel of the Lord is unpopular. I have realised that wherever there are huge crowds and no real genuine repentance (followed by no major changes in the person’s life) then one needs to proceed with extreme caution! The way of the Lord is a narrow way, not a popular one.

 - We need to be very careful of false teachers and false prophets in the end times. There are no arguments that we are in the end times, so why would we switch off our discernment buttons because we are too scared to be wrongly called Pharisees.

Will we be accountable to God for being easily deceived?

We have access to the Truth, the Word of God. The Word of God specifically warns us in detail about what deceptions there will be in the end times and yet we are still easily deceived.  I was warned by earnest believers, but still chose to be lead astray.  And in turn we have earnestly warned others but they choose to defile themselves with these false spirits too.

Why are we caught off guard by so called “men of god” that are bringing these false spirits into the church?

Most likely they are completely deceived themselves and are themselves, in turn, deceivers. The whole purpose of deception is that is going to come in and trick us! Why does it surprise us that this is happening in the church? Satan has had over 7,000 years to work out the best ways to deceive and cheat people, of course he is going to influence people in the church today. It is naive to think he wouldn’t. There will be no excuse for us on our day of judgement when we face our Lord and King and we realise we have been tricked into allowing false spirits into our hearts. We should know better and be prepared for this.

How do we know and recognise satan?

Satan will deceive us by enticing our flesh! It is not surprising them to find that these so called movement of the “holy spirit” are about ‘making us feel good’, ‘hyping up our emotions’ and ‘satisfying our carnal desires’ into chaos, uncontrolled disgusting behaviour and acting like mad people.

Is it any surprise why we are so desperate for the next “fix”?

This behaviour is not found anywhere in the Word of our God. The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and then they went out with their purpose, to spread the gospel NOT to  run from conference to conference, meeting to meeting to get *more* of the “anointing”.

When I look back over my darkest days I can now very clearly recall some of the behaviours of these people and even friends who are in these “movements”. Their behaviour (including my own) was some of the most selfish, prideful displays I have ever seen. We were desperate to have our next “fix”, the next manifestation, the next drunken moment in the so called holy spirit, and the next “loved up” feeling. The longer I was involved the greater my drive and motivation was to fulfil my flesh and carnal desire. This selfish, flesh seeking drive is intensely stronger than the motivation to go out into the world and spread the gospel and to save lost sinners in the name of Jesus.  I only cared about myself and truthfully I had no real genuine care or love for other believers during that time. It was all about me.

I also have noticed and experienced the anger of these people when they are questioned about the truth behind these movements and any mention of false spirits. It is like they turn into monsters defending their prey. There is an awful ugliness that emerges and it is quite frightening (that is why I used the word monster). I displayed this ugly behaviour myself so I speak from first hand experience…these people have sold themselves out to a false spirit, a false jesus. The devil has a hold on their heart and their desires. This false spirit makes them feel good and they will hold onto it like nothing else! Their flesh fights to hold onto it and fights against the truth being revealed.

If you are concerned about this false spirit that is creeping into the church please go to my sister in Christ’s Mkayla Kelly’s blog.

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195 Responses to Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism – A Personal Testimony of Bethel’s Influence

  1. mkayla says:

    Isn’t this just amazing? I love to see people come out. It gives us hope and reminds us of who God is! Don’t give up and don’t stop praying for the lost and the deceived. :)

    Blessings -

  2. inerrantword says:

    Haha. I love it! The Lord was good to us and we are encouraged to keep praying for people. If if we do not know anyone personally, we need to keep praying anyway because the people who know others who are deceived, will need encouraging and strengthening to keep holding strong to win these people back by the grace of God.

  3. Craig says:

    Comment by John Ashton from 9:58am moved by admin:

    Hey Inerrantword-

    Thank you for your wife’s post. I share pretty much all of your concerns, especially regarding finances. There are excesses at both ends of the heart-mind spectrum. After over a year here, I think Bethel is more balanced than people realize. I’m constantly praying for wisdom and revelation…

  4. Craig says:

    Gotta love it! :-)

  5. mbaker says:

    John,

    While I join you in your prayer for wisdom and revelation, I also pray that it be always in context of the Lord’s truth. I have folks in the faith that I admire more than others, but I think we have to avoid the tendency to exclusivity that suggests they are above correction themselves simply because we admire them.

  6. Craig says:

    Once again the same false dichotomy: this time it’s phrased as heart vs. mind. We worship in Spirit and Truth — both. Bethel teaches error and leads to a different spirit. That’s what this testimony/article clearly states. If your claim is that Bethel in Redding doesn’t have these sorts of errors, I have private testimony that contradicts your view.

    Bethel seems to wear the “illogical [as "spiritual"] vs. logical” tag as if it’s a badge of honor. That’s borne out in the comments on Facebook. And, that’s sad.

  7. peacebringer says:

    Since heart and mind, Spirit and Truth have come up want to direct folks to an article I wrote: http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/worship-in-spirit-and-truth-how-do-we/

    Also just reading over this, I want to challenge all who read, and all who come across to pray for Kim Walker and “Jesus Culture.” As I stated in another comment, the music, the words in and of themself can and do uplift God. She has a heart for worship, but God is impressing on me, that we need to pray for her, for her gifting, her ability to draw others to lifting up God, is being twisted and used. It is cementing others into untruth. She needs prayer, needs her eyes and ears to be opened to see the truth. To see how what she does is leading others away from the very God she uplifts and draws others to. Weep as well for Kim and all those caught up in the trap by their own desires.

    Also want to point folks to an early article that was meant to an examination that is yet not really started-
    http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/the-foundations-of-strong-delusion-introduction/

  8. MaryM007 says:

    MaryM007 says:
    March 30, 2011 at 6:51 am
    I am on staff at my church – my last day is this Friday…I am leaving because our church has become ‘little bethel’ – I quit attending last summer when we started our own “school of supernatural ministry”… I love these people – some are my dearest friends – I took my concerns (which the Lord kept speaking to my heart – “Beware Beware Beware and Foundation Foundation Foundation) to a pastor (I’m his administrative assistant) and, because I started crying – he asked me to write down my concerns and then we would talk. I did – it is 11 pages and I could have written more – he read it and took it to the rest of the pastors. They do not agree with me – they are continuing down this road. I know getting away from it is what I have to do – but my struggle is watching people who dearly love the Lord and serve Him with all their heart being drawn deeper and deeper into this. They are into soaking, signs and wonders, etc. They accept the feathers, gold, jewels, oil, zapping each other with ‘power’, etc. – as blessings from God. For me – a HUGE sign was when God orchestrated all the “leaders” of this movement on the same stage in Lakeland FL commissioning Todd Bentley – all speaking “thus says the lord” over him and then the whole thing falls apart soon after that – which meant all those ‘words’ spoken over Todd were NOT ‘from God’ – He wouldn’t have blessed this with all that was going on behind the scenes…This movement is huge – It’s hard to find a church now that I can trust – but I know the Lord will lead me to where I need to be. Keep praying for all those caught up in this – that God will open their eyes, too. I have been to these meetings – you don’t realize the error until you step back away from it – it all sounds so right when you are in the midst of it…and it becomes ‘your bible’. Just as tolerance and political correctness is ruining the world – ‘judge not’ and ‘love one another’ is ruining the church – discernment is out the window and evil creeps in. Keep shouting it (warning) from the housetops!

  9. Craig says:

    Mary,

    Thanks for re-posting your comment!

  10. zeemanb says:

    Several things in this post really spoke to me, but the fact that there is now an actual nickname (wordies) for those who want to rely on reading the Bible just saddens me. I experienced something similar in the early 90’s when I was quitting my job as an associate pastor at an Assemblies of God Church in order to attend Bible College (the Berean correspondence courses offered by the AG just weren’t cutting it, lol). I was warned by many in the church to “be careful, don’t let it hurt your walk with God” before I left, and any time I would engage in any sort of Biblical discussion with folks back home when I’d visit, I was met with “you are just going to Hebrew and Greek that thing to death”. Even today, I get comments like “Bible College is the quickest way to destroy your walk with God” from many I know who are still AG affiliated. Well, when you grow up believing that completely subjective and emotional interpretations of scripture are infallible and questioning anything is “touching God’s anointed”, and then you go and actually learn things like the existence of hermeneutics and exegesis…..it DOES kick off quite a paradigm shift. But I wouldn’t trade the anger and hurt I went through for years before finally coming to terms with my faith and what it means to me….especially if it meant going back to that unquestioning faith in the random opinions of those “men of God”.

  11. Craig says:

    zeemanb,

    I have to admit I was a bit confused with your first comment and not sure where you stood with regard to your faith; so, I’m glad you made this comment.

    “Wordies,” eh? It’s a bit more accurate than “Pharisees” at least. But, yes it is sad as it posits a false dichotomy: if you read the Word you are one of “them” and if you immerse yourself in subjective experience you are part of the “in” crowd who really “get it.” Heaven forbid you could actually use the Bible as your guide in ALL THINGS. And, why learn about proper hermeneutics and exegesis when eisgesis is much for fun? Hyper-charismatics really put the “I” is eIsegesis.

    Unfortunately, Bible college/seminary is not such a safe place either with apparently a myriad of liberalist teaching there. I’m hearing of individuals who are quitting seminary for that reason. I think one is better off learning on their own by reading books from varying traditions/denominations rather than going to a place such as Fuller, for example, which brought forth individuals like Brian McLaren, C Peter Wagner and Rick Warren.

  12. zeemanb says:

    Yeah Craig, I imagine anyone who hears me say more than about four or five words or reads my writing would wonder where I stand with any semblance of Christian belief. It took a lot of years and hard knocks before I finally got back to a child-like simple faith where I could feel and act upon the love for a God who wasn’t constantly waiting to squash me. What I finally got out of Bible College was how much I DIDN’T know or couldn’t possibly understand…..and the miraculous gift of being able to say “I don’t know” to someone instead of cherry-picking pieces of scripture to form an answer or rebuttal. John 3:16 and the great commission….maybe once I truly comprehend, internalize and act upon those two things I’ll be ready to get back to the exegetical swordfights, lol. That belief is truly what is in my heart, I keep things very, very, very simple, BUT don’t get me wrong….the way I communicate and choose to craft much of my online persona is NC-17…I work through some things openly, loudly and sarcastically. Is that libertinism? Maybe. Ego or pride? Absolutely. I love coming in here and reading the thoughts of people who can think through these things without turning it into a profane circus like I do. It helps to center me, and in my own crazy way I’m able to engage in discussions about faith with people who would normally spit on even the kernel of a thought of all this gospel stuff. To be gut-level honest, the language that we speak to debunk the language of people like Bill Johnson sounds just as stupid as Bill Johnson to the majority of people out there. I just always try to be sure I’m making some kind of connection with those who view it ALL as foolishness. That generally keeps me in check as far as the super-libertinism goes :) .

  13. Craig says:

    I’m saddened that you had to go through “years of hard knocks before” you “finally got back to a child-like simple faith where I could feel and act upon the love for a God who wasn’t constantly waiting to squash me.” Thankfully, I didn’t really have a problem with that.

    I have quite a few friends who don’t really understand why I do what I do on here. This is totally foreign to them as they’ve no point of reference. After hearing about or reading some of these testimonies, however, it starts to make more sense.

  14. Allengirl says:

    In response to MaryM007, I so understand how easy it is to slip into this deceptive charismatic “church” and its followers. I even made a road trip to Bethel, but upon my return home, realized I had spent a lot of money to go there expecting a “great anointing.” I came to realize within a few more months that our church back home was idolizing Bill Johnson (and I had fallen for it, too). God gave me dreams that I journaled and I began to see a pattern of warning. Then I had a “knowing” that I needed to leave the church I was in (we were into all the manifestations and glorifying them). That church had also started a school of supernatural ministry just like the one at Bethel — in fact they used the Bethel videos of the actual classes there at Bethel. The Holy Spirit led me and showed me the errors of my thinking and I am so grateful to God that I was not completely and irrevocably deceived. All along I had ignored those “catches” in my spirit, but with the dreams and with discussions with other Christians, plus reading books by pastors warning about the current deception and false teachings, I left it all behind. Now I stay focused on the Bible and prayer. I am still seeking a church home and have visited several that are Biblical in their teachings. How calm and peaceful it is now to fellowship with God and His servants. I pray for friends who are still caught up in all the hoopla; I pray that the eyes of their understanding will be opened.

  15. Craig says:

    Thank the Lord you did not get in very deep! Thanks for your words here as I’m sure they will be of help to those who are both still caught up and those who are coming out of this.

    Keep praying for your friends.

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  17. Martin says:

    Allen girl can you explain what you believe the holy spirit told you was the error of your thinking?

  18. Martin says:

    Also surely we need to also balance all of this up with positive biblically sound experiences that people have had at Bethel.

  19. Craig says:

    Comments 3 and 7 had some positive and some negative.

  20. Craig says:

    Here’s a post illustrating the progression of a church infection by Bethel:

    http://mkayla.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/an-escape-from-bethel-and-the-false-prophetic/

  21. Craig says:

    I just posted this on the By Whose Power Does Bill Johnson Perform Healings? thread:

    I just came across the following which I found of interest and appropriate to the current discussion: When Bethel Invades Your Church.

    My adult daughter recently became involved in New Age and native spirituality. After we had a few discussions and arguments over Christian beliefs and the practices of the New Age movement, she agreed to attend a local non-denominational church with me…

    To my surprise the Sunday sermons were less about Scripture and more about
    the “revival” happening in the town of Redding, California, where the message of Bill Johnson, senior pastor of Bethel Church, was being preached. I heard about the students of Pastor Johnson’s School of the Supernatural and how they are being trained to bring God’s power and healing to us. I heard sermons laced with invitations to try “soaking prayer” and experience “fire tunnels.” I saw a speaker in church “downloading and processing messages from God.” There were invitations to receive God’s power and impartations of healing and prophetic words…

    …One night a woman give a talk about some kind of inner healing ministry she did with people. When she was finished speaking my daughter said, “Mom, this is what I am learning at the [New Age] Healing Arts School; she is talking about what is in my book“.

    …Where does that leave me? After researching and experiencing it from a parishioner’s point of view, I find it full of man-made events and mystical occurrences. It troubles me enough to write this article and hope people will educate themselves on this subject. Many of the practices are taken from Shamanism and directly from pagan ceremonies. The ancient rituals hold some power and impart mesmerizing delusions

  22. zeemanb says:

    Just noticed a recent update on Bethel’s Facebook that contains alleged video of gold dust forming in the air and raining down on parishioners. I’ve read about this (gold dust appearing, gems being found under pews, angel feathers falling from the rafters, etc.) in the past couple of years, mainly via media reports from Redding’s online newspaper, and thought Bethel had toned this type of testimony down a bit due to the scrutiny. At first I found it pretty humorous, but then it was more troubling as I read through some of the comments….total brainwashing. There is just no doubt in people’s minds that this spectacle is genuine. I have to wonder….does the dust always just happen to appear right at the front of the stage where the lighting and air currents happen to be the best? Why does God limit himself to something that could so easily be recreated with a fan and some gold sparkle powder from a hobby store? I joke around, but this is truly disturbing…….. (hopefully the link works, if not it’s near the top of Bethel’s main Facebook page)- https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2310539496490

  23. Craig says:

    I don’t do facebook; so, I can’t verify. I can’t say that I’m surprised though:

    12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [NIV 1984]

    You wrote: I have to wonder….does the dust always just happen to appear right at the front of the stage where the lighting and air currents happen to be the best? Why does God limit himself to something that could so easily be recreated with a fan and some gold sparkle powder from a hobby store? I joke around, but this is truly disturbing… It is disturbing; and, you do make a good observation re: “right at the front of the stage.”

    I was reading about someone else’s church [with an assocation with IHOP] witnessing “gold dust” and the like also.

  24. Mary Matthews (MaryM007) says:

    Here are a couple YouTube videos of the gold dust cloud:

    and

    The church I left, has this going on along with gold teeth, oil, gems, etc. – it’s a big thing with Toronto, Bethel, IHOP, Joyner, Bentley, Patricia King, Bob Jones, – this ‘movement’ is huge!

  25. Craig says:

    Mary,

    Is the 2nd one your former church or just a video of this sort of thing from another church? I’m on an email list of another whose “church” has this sort of nonsense goin’ on. So, how much many has been given to the poor or to ministry from the proceeds of these “gems,” fool’s gold dust, etc?

  26. Mary Matthews (MaryM007) says:

    These YouTube videos are from the Open Heavens Conference held at Bethel – I believe this happened on Oct 16, 2011. One of the videos is short (little over a minute) – it is the one that was posted on Facebook and the other one is longer (little over 4 minutes) and taken from a different angle.

  27. Craig says:

    I understood the 2nd one was Bethel but I didn’t catch that on the first one.

  28. zeemanb says:

    Well, I guess when you have so many people paying a premium to travel to and attend a big conference, you have to deliver things like glory clouds to insure registration continues to grow.

    I do wish I had the ability to contain my anger and scorn enough to investigate the current goings on at IHOP….the church/complex is about twenty minutes from my house. Just too much “post traumatic stress” for it to be healthy in any way. Lou Engle does provide constant entertainment in the local media. When I was in ministry I knew Ernie Gruen pretty well and will see if I still have any old tapes or literature from the time period you have been writing about. Probably just some old sermons at most.

  29. Craig says:

    Well, I guess when you have so many people paying a premium to travel to and attend a big conference, you have to deliver things like glory clouds to insure registration continues to grow.

    Hey, everyone likes a light show, right?

    When I was in ministry I knew Ernie Gruen pretty well and will see if I still have any old tapes or literature from the time period you have been writing about. Probably just some old sermons at most.

    That’d be great! What do you think of the allegations that Gruen was involved in an immoral relationship near the timing of the Gruen/KCF controversy circa Jan to July ’90? Were you there at that time?

  30. zeemanb says:

    Yes, Full Faith Church of Love was booming at the same time I was in ministry (I attended the Masters Commission in Phoenix in 89-90 and then worked as an associate pastor in my hometown of Kansas City from 90-92), so my memory and perspective is somewhat limited, tainted, purely formed by personal opinion, etc. etc. I had family who attended Full Faith, my cousin went to their school, and Ernie was overall a pretty approachable person. His was the prototype of the “mega church” in KC, and the non-denominational evangelical church trend was just starting to ramp up.
    I have zero personal knowledge of any immorality on his part, but I will say this- the amount of time he spent on his radio show and behind the pulpit preaching against “the sin of masturbation” was strange to the point of being a running joke between many of the local pastors that I knew. He spent a LOT of time and energy addressing it…and while I have no knowledge of his personal life I am a believer in the doctrine of “he who smelt it dealt it” when it comes to that type of focus on a specific sin. Not scientific, but in my experience, it is very telling. His divorce happened after I had already moved from KC, but different public ministries like the radio spot began to be parceled off and a lot of people were leaving Full Faith prior to my departure.
    As far as his relationship with Bickle, your information is far, far beyond anything I was aware of at the time. My perspective on Bickle, Gruen and other local pastors like Dennis Slavens from Antioch Family Worship or Mike Purkey from Lenexa Christian, had one simple focus…..competition. Lots of pastors were getting very popular, congregants were church hopping like crazy…we had way more of a competitive business focus than anything else. Everyone was friendly with one another, but the fear of proselytizing outweighed specific doctrinal concerns. Bickle was a show-boater, Gruen was fading from the picture, Slavens was the new kid capitalizing on the non-denominational trend, Purkey was the tv star, and we were hardcore urban guys who refused to flee to the clean suburbs.
    So that was my little world. Lots of words that probably don’t tell you much at all, lol.

  31. Craig says:

    zeemanb,

    I think your perspective is valuable in view of overall fairness. Would you mind copying and pasting this comment on the newest thread? I can copy it; but, it would alleviate any potential confusion to readers if the comment had your name above it rather than mine.

  32. Mike says:

    I’ve read most of the posts and the story. It’s amazing how chtistians go from following one man to following another without ever doing the work (allowing the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth). The story would have never been told if the lady would have just stayed in love with Jesus. I really enjoy listening and reading behind Bill Johnson and many of the others mentioned but I don’t believe any one person or group has all of the answers. Quit following man and follow God and allow men who have heard from God to speak into your life and allow the Holy Spirit to cull out what is man and keep what is God. I can see why this lady was led astray. The scriptures say we are led astray because of our own lusts and desires. I believe that much of what was said about these brothers and sisters in Christ is not representative of the truth. There was much assumption as to the motives of their lives and reading into their intentions. I have been around Jesus for a long time and I found several things out. First, He is naturally supernatural and He operates from a Spiritual realm affecting the physical. Secondly, when He shows up amazing and weird things happen. Thirdly, wherever He is, devils and religous spirits cry out. If you don’t believe me, read your bible and don’t skip over the miraculous. We as believers must quit swinging on the pendulum and blaming everyone else for the decietfulness of our hearts that we wish to hold on to. We must quit looking to man as our source. The organization that man gives us will always hinder the relationship God wants with and for us. Man will dissappoint you sweetheart, but Jesus never will. I have attended many of these conferences and meetings and have been blessed, but I didn’t go there for just a feel good message, I went hungry for God and still am. I guess if your heart is right, Jesus will keep you on the right track. Spirit to spirit baby. Have a great day.

  33. Craig says:

    Mike,

    You contradict yourself. You state, “I really enjoy listening and reading behind Bill Johnson and many of the others mentioned but I don’t believe any one person or group has all of the answers.” Then in the next sentence you said, “Quit following man and follow God and allow men who have heard from God to speak into your life and allow the Holy Spirit to cull out what is man and keep what is God.” So, which is it? Do you not follow any “one person or group” or do you “allow men who have heard from God to speak into your life” and how do you know which is which?

    Then, you state, ” I believe that much of what was said about these brothers and sisters in Christ is not representative of the truth.” And, you go on to state, “He [Jesus] is naturally supernatural and He operates from a Spiritual realm affecting the physical.” So, then, when Bill Johnson says that Jesus “had NO supernatural capabilites whatsoever” you do not see a problem? And, when Johnson states Jesus “laid his divinity aside” and He “so emptied Himself that he was incapable of doing what was required of Him by the Father – without the Father’s help…” in opposition to Scripture including John 5:21: For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. you still see no problem? Do you think Bill Johnson heard from God in making these statements? Bill Johnson is a false teacher teaching a different Jesus, a different gospel from a different spirit [2 Cor 11:3-4] leading many astray and there are plenty of articles on here with proof to back up that claim. I challenge you to find one article with a quote of Bill Johnson’s either misplaced, misapplied or both.

    You also wrote, “wherever He is, devils and religous spirits cry out.” Oh, the ‘religious spirits’ again. You mean the Pharisees, right? You mean the ones who couldn’t see the true Messiah, (the real) Jesus, standing right in front of them? The ones who looked to their own extra-Biblical doctrine instead of and/or in addition to Scripture – just like the ‘new reveleations’ of the “apostolic/prophetic’ movement of which Bill Johnson is a part.

    You may want to read, or re-read 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, Matthew 7:15-23, and Matthew 24:4-5,10-12,23-24.

  34. Juliette says:

    I’m only a teen and new Christian so I feel really confused at the moment because I have seen videos on you tube warning against this type of thing and ones where people start laughing for no real reason and I thought yeah that stuff is weird stay away from that but yesterday at my church, this group of five including my pastor and another important one went up the front to pray and they started losing their balance and wobbling around, then they started laughing weirdly during prayer and It made me kind of uncomfortable. My pastor is into Benny hinn and something is wrong with Benny. After this happened my pastor said if your questioning this because it’s not what you grew up with and stuff and my pastor teaches a lot about some of these things and now I’m so confused about Jesus and the truth and it makes me wanna cry. I’m the only christian in my family and I wanna ask if you guys will pray for me please I’m so confused!!!

  35. Craig says:

    Juliette,

    I’m so sorry you are going though this. :( There’s no doubt something is wrong with Benny Hinn and also with your pastor. My strong recommendation is get away from this church – and now. There’s absolutely no reason to “laugh weirdly” during prayer. These are most likely mocking spirits within these individuals causing the laughing.

    Know that God loves you. He gave you the discernment to know something is wrong at your church. Rest in His comfort.

    I know firsthand that it can be lonely being the only Christian in your family. When other family members don’t share your faith you can feel alienated. But, know that you have a NEW family – all your brothers and sisters in Christ.

    The Bible states there are and will be false Christs, false Gospels and false spirits [2 Cor 11:3-4] for Satan masquerades as an angel of light [2 Cor 11:13-15]. The deception is worse than it was a few years ago and will continue to get worse.

    The Holy Spirit guided you away from these false manifestations and rest assured He will continue to show you the way. If you have any other questions or comments feel free to comment on here.

    Know that I will prayer for you (and have already); and, I’m sure that others on here who read this will do the same.

    You’re family on here!

  36. Chuck Bosio says:

    Comments are a great help. My 58 year old pastor in the UK near London is full into Bethel and Bill Johnson. The assoc. Pastor is doing lectio divina at home in his growth group. Hmmm. I was in former East Germany ten years ago and we had a spiritual battle on our hands. Witchcraft was very common. They knew if you were praying alone in your house, because they would lay weird curses outside your house. We had to drain the swamp through a dedicated prayer group which took on the witches head on. They left. Why oh why isn’t any one standing up against this counterfeit spirituality in prayer? Let every prayer not spoken in agreement with the Holy Spirit be bound. Let those who seek a false spirit be filled with the fear of the Lord, or even the dread of the Lord. Pray that the righteous of God be established in the House of God. Let the purveyors of false spirituality speak with split tongues, that they argue and expose each other for what they are. (See TBN’s Crouch and his granddaughter’s claim of mismanagement of funds! Progress.) We are all moaning, but who’s getting on the knee and saying, “Lord, the battle is yours. You promise that evil will flee before your servant.”

  37. Bill says:

    I find it very interesting to see the expression (or lack of) at the beginning of the video of the man walking across the stage. He apparently has either seen it before or finds a manifestation of Jesus Himself to be rather uninteresting.

  38. Craig says:

    Bill,

    I’m assuming you are speaking of the so-called “glory cloud”. If not, please clarify. Assuming so – you think Jesus manifests Himself as sparkly ‘gold’ dust? Interesting.

  39. Craig says:

    Or, were you being sarcastic, i.e. the guy finds it uninteresting as opposed to the crowd which was eating it up perhaps because he knew it was a sham?

  40. omots (Steve) says:

    Thanks Craig, for remaining such a faithful servant and keeping a discerning eye on Bethel and this “movement”. According to the “Global Outreach” page at Bethel, there are four affiliated congregations in my local area, but I know there are many more promoting the same “spirit” that are not officially listed.

    I’ve been taking a real closer look at some of the “Jesus Culture” music, and Kim Walker, who “performed” at Bethel when I visited there a couple years ago. Kim Walker’s own bizarre testimony is on Youtube, along with several vids of the “Fire Tunnel”, and the laughing attacks, etc. Any of which should be enough to warn people that there is a false christ “spirit” at work.

    But do not discount the “signs and wonders” aspects so readily. I’m not saying that “gold dust” and the “miraculous” appearance of “gems” etc. is not a deception, but I have personally seen such “dust” supposedly created out of thin air by other false deceivers, ie. the Indian guru Sai Baba comes to mind. One webpage puts it this way:

    Arati to Shri Sai Baba
    Oh Sai Baba, we wave lights before You, the bestower of happiness to the Jivas. Give us – Your servants and devotees rest under the dust of Your feet. Burning (destroying) desire, You remain absorbed in Your Self and show the Lord (God) to the aspirants. As one feels intently, You give him experiences or realizations accordingly.

    I think we are going to see some very real signs and wonders coming out of this movement, not just Houdini tricks with lights and smoke machines. A strong enough delusion to fool even the elect, if that were possible. Such delusions just may include “dust” that supposedly comes from the feet of the “gods”.

    I’m just sayin.

  41. Craig says:

    Steve,

    Thanks for coming back as I know you had taken a break from blogging for a while. Sorry to hear about the Bethel infestation near you.

    Did you see the current series on Bill Johnson?

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-christ-part-ii/

    It alludes to what you mentioned regarding signs and wonders.

    Have a great Easter.

  42. omots (Steve) says:

    Craig
    No, I had not seen that piece. I haven’t finished reading all of it yet, but I had to stop right where you wrote, ““Wisdom of the Ages” is analogous to the ‘Ancient Wisdom’, or occult teachings,44 or “the power of wisdom from all the world’s religious traditions” as Fox states above.””

    I stopped right there because I had just read much the same thing this morning on a piece about Sai Baba’s passing that stated, “‘He taught that you should be of good character in thought, word and deed – living in Truth. He encouraged Christians to be good Christians; Hindus, good Hindus; Muslims, good Muslims, and so on. The mandir was full of people from all around the world of all different religions and cultural backgrounds.’”

    http://www.lifeartsmedia.com/sai-baba

    What we are seeing develop, for lack of a newer word, is PANTHEISM. God all encompassing, exists in everything, including each individual. I’ve watched these concepts develop in some of the more popular VBS materials, ie. Group Publishing. Theosophy teaches that man is divine. In Bethel Church, the goal is to recognize one’s own connection to the divine, a tiny little step away from declaring the divinity of man. This so-called “enlightenment” can be helped along by such things as the “Fire Tunnel”, trance inducing music, or directed meditation, etc. You know you have arrived when you can actually hear “god” laughing.

    Sai Baba died on Easter Sunday, one year ago. He knows the truth now. Unfortunately, the spirit that indwelt that poor man has moved on and is looking for new digs.

    The laughter is not coming from God.

  43. Craig says:

    Interesting. I didn’t know Sai Baba died on Easter Sunday. I suppose some are still waiting for his resurrection – or think they may have seen him.

    Being a stickler on this, I wish to note that it’s panentheism (God is in all) rather than pantheism (God is all). It’s the ‘divine spark’ according to Kabbalah and some other occult literature. This “God” is both transcendent and ‘immanent’ – within all.

  44. omots (Steve) says:

    Oops, I forgot there is, if not newer, a more descriptive word for it.

    PANENTHEISM

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

  45. Craig says:

    It’s a helpful distinction since in the Theosophical teachings, like the Dualism of 1st/2nd century, matter is considered evil having been created by the inferior demiurge and will be destroyed once these ‘divine sparks’ are freed from it.

  46. omots (Steve) says:

    Distinction noted. Yes, words do mean specific things (or, at least they used to). However, the difference between PANTHEISM and PANENTHEISM is like the difference between Alice Bailey’s view of Theosophy, and Annie Besant’s view. Both postulations have their followers, yet both are false. Theosophist’s have long argued whose viewpoint is most true to the teachings of their guru, Mdme Blat. It never seems to occur to them that their idol was demon possessed and full of lies so confusion amongst the disciples is to be expected.

    The phrase “Do what thou will” sums up the chaos created by any of the “old growth” or “new growth” branches of the theosophical deception pretty good. If I may be so bold, it also seems to sum up what is occurring at Bethel Church. If Satan’s kingdom was actually united, (which it is not and cannot be), it might just stand. But anarchy, chaos, and rebellion do not make for a united front, it just creates victims. Lots of victims. That is “the Plan”, right?

    I’m very thankful to God for those who would faithfully do whatever it takes to pull others out of the fire. That is indeed what we are supposed to be doing and teaching others to do in these last days.

    Thanks again for your diligence and discernment. Stay strong in the Lord.

    Jesus Christ is risen, our God reigns.

  47. Craig says:

    He is indeed risen! The other religions cannot make that claim.

  48. Pingback: From Crosswise – A Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism « DiscernIt

  49. Carolyn says:

    I just read this post for the first time since I am a fairly newcomer to this site. Born into Pentecostalism and following its progression over many years, it’s very interesting to hear how God brings different people out of the movement. I can relate with the power of the Word and how when you do read it, it breaks through the fog and exposes the deception in your own heart. She said:
    “One day however I did pick up my Bible and read it. It was during that time that I noticed something very different from what I was experiencing.”
    If only more people would do that, they would find out that the silly, flipped out, maniacal god they have been experiencing through the impartation of the drunken prophets is not the God portrayed in his Word. He is completely opposite!!

    I challenge some of you who want to meet the real Jesus…to find out what he has revealed to his true prophets in 66 different books of the Bible. That will blow all the gaudy, gold dust from your celestial neurotransmitters and snap those gossamer, grandiose wings off your hypercharismatic back. You will experience real faith in a real God. Totally awesome God!

    Psalm 12:6
    And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like GOLD refined seven times.

    1 Peter 1:7
    These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than GOLD, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

    Revelation 3:18
    I counsel you to buy from me GOLD refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

  50. Alan says:

    I am constantly amazed that people don’t see all this for what it really is. The Bible tells us;
    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.”
    2 Timothy 4:2-5 (KJV)
    Also;
    “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”
    2 Peter 2:1-3 (KJV)
    These speak of the false teachers, but what of those who follow them? I believe this passage speaks of them and gives us an answer as to what is happening and why;
    “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
    2 Thess 2:10-12 (KJV)

    Sadly, I believe we are seeing the beginnings of the strong delusion spoken of in verse 11. The only safeguard against being deceived is to have THE love of THE truth. This is not just an affection for truth, but the kind of love for the truth that over-rules every other consideration. It’s a love that will not settle for anything less than THE truth, at all costs.

    What is THE truth? Jesus said; “Thy Word is truth”(John 17:17) The first part of that verse says;”Sanctify them through thy truth:”, and the passage is where Jesus is praying in the garden. He is praying for the disciples and for those who will come after them; us. So what He says here is about us being sanctified through the truth, which is God’s written Word. The Bible. However, Jesus also said; “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) From John chapter one, we know that Jesus is the Word of God too, the living Word and so now we have Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, also saying that God’s Word is truth, which sanctifies us. This is THE truth, that we are to receive THE love for; the written and the living Word, and if we don’t, we will be sent a strong delusion.

    God is separating the wheat from the chaff.

  51. Craig says:

    Alan,

    I do agree that God is separating the wheat from the chaff. I see you’re from ‘down under’. So, the Johnson/Bethel influence is strong even in your ‘neck of the woods’?

    Speaking of ‘strong delusion’, you may find this particular aricle (and the series as a whole) of interest:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-christ-part-ii/

    Here’s the first part:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ/

  52. Alan says:

    Craig,

    “So the Johnson/ Bethel influence is strong even in your neck of the woods?”

    Um, yeah, in Oz, we have a choice of; Emerging, Purpose Driven, Hillsong, or NAR/Third Wave/Joel’s Army, or various mixtures of the above. The church I used to be in leadership in, has followers of all the above, to one degree or another. They seem to get along just fine.

    Truly biblical churches are very hard to find and many are teetering on the edge of one heresy or another.

    Maranatha!

  53. Alan says:

    Hi again Craig, I just noticed the links you put in your reply to my post and wanted to let you know that I’ve read the whole series and yes, I’ve bookmarked them.

  54. sharks408 says:

    It is truly sad what can be referred to as Christianity these days, my friends wife was deceived by a church in red bluff, just south of redding. The pastor there (I’ll call him Fred villasenior) told his wife to leave him for quitting the church. Of course she did as commanded because Fred speaks to Jesus personally and now they’re divorced.. He also runs a dinar scam out of the church, it truly sickens me..

  55. Maria Billingsley says:

    I am so happy that I have come across this blog. God is truly working in those who want to hear the truth. In 1984 I accepted Christ as my savior after being involved in Hinduism. My experience was through the AOG church. I spoke in tongues when hands were laid upon me. I became saved by the blood of Christ and he took me away from Hinduism.

    I stayed in the church for one year. Then I left never to return to any church. Why did I leave? The spirit of the church became uncomfortable.

    Now several years later, I feel a very strong calling to return to fellowship but am shocked at what is happening in the charismatic churches today. I never imagined such disorderly behavior could possibly be manifesting in our churches today. As I sift through the sea of false teachers, preachers and gods, I thank God that he removed me when he did.

    As a past Hindu, I can share with you that what I came out of in 1984 is actually present in many so called “spirit filled” churches today. I levetated,had uncontrollable and violent body movements,screamed unknown and known noises and languages from my mouth and had out of body experiences. All of this is Kundallini , the awakening through the Hindu religion.

    Now I ask myself, why is it present in the very church that I was saved in? Now I answer, because no one is testing the spirt. Darkness is upon many of our brothers and sisters in Christ. God has sent strong delusions to them. If you are one of those brothers or sisters in darkness you can find your way back to the light. God will be there.

    Reading the Word of God. It is the only way to the truth and the light.

  56. Craig says:

    Maria,

    Thanks so much for your comment! Given your background, I’d be very interested in your thoughts on the (very lengthy) Bill Johnson: New Age Christ? series (especially part IV). New Age teachings are based in part on Hindu doctrine.

    Yes, the key is in reading the Word of God!

  57. Maria Billingsley says:

    Craig,
    I think I can encapsulate this in a couple of sentences. The Hindus believe in a path to enlightenment which means to reach the point of brahma, god.
    The WOF movement calls its followers “little gods” , therefore also reaching for the brahma experience. This is why the manifestations are so similar,though I must say the Christians are getting a double dose… whew!

  58. Craig says:

    Maria,

    I tie the Hindu concept of maya to Bill Johnson in the following:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/learning-etymology-with-bill-johnson-a-new-age-repentance/

    ___________
    Is Johnson conveying with the above that we need to, in his words, repent, i.e. “go back” to “the penthouse, the top floor of a building” which means regaining “God’s perspective on reality” in order to “to live from His world toward the visible world” and that the renewed mind is literally the mind of God? That we can literally see the supernatural realm as if we were God himself and “view reality from God’s perspective”?

    Compare this to the following taken from one of McConnell’s footnotes:

    …It should be pointed out that ‘Reality’ as Kenyon uses it is a term used in New Thought and Christian Science to refer to the spiritual realm and truths that were hidden by the sensations of the physical realm, which were not reality at all, but was considered ‘error,’ the opposite of metaphysical reality….35

    This is describing the concept in Brahmanism, a subset of Hinduism, known as maya, or illusion. The physical realm is considered a dream, illusion. Kenyon above called it “the sense realm”. As Ankerberg and Weldon explain, “…Essentially, the idea that the world is an illusion ‘hiding’ Brahman [sic] is a key teaching of Hinduism in America. The teaching aims at supposedly revealing one’s inward divine nature by ‘contacting’ Brahman [sic] through occult practices such as yoga, meditation, and altered states of consciousness.”36 If Brahma/God is inside everything in “hiding”, then Brahma/God can be contacted by going inward via meditation/contemplative prayer and the individual can become “one” with “God” thereby possessing the very mind of “God”. That’s the essence of Transcendental Meditation.

    Occultist H. P. Blavatsky, one of the founders of Theosophy in the late 19th century and thereby contemporaneous with New Thought and Christian Science, utilized the term “reality” in the same manner, denoting the spiritual realm in opposition to the illusion of maya, the physical universe:

    …When the spiritual entity breaks loose for ever from every particle of matter, then only it enters upon the eternal and unchangeable Nirvana. He exists in spirit, in nothing; as a form, a shape, a semblance, he is completely annihilated, and thus will die no more, for spirit alone is no Maya, but the only REALITY in an illusionary universe of ever-passing forms.37 [all spelling, capitalization, and emphasis in original]

    Is this similar to what Johnson means? Taking the same basic information from another Johnson book, When Heaven Invades Earth, we see the same concepts as explained above, “Repentance is not complete until it envisions His Kingdom”.38

    The focus of repentance is to change our way of thinking until the presence of His Kingdom fills our consciousness. The enemy’s attempt to anchor our affections to the things that are visible is easily resisted when our hearts are aware of the presence of His world…

    If the Kingdom is here and now, then we must acknowledge it’s in the invisible realm. Yet being at hand reminds us that it’s also within reach…39

    Note how Johnson compares the ‘visible’ to the ‘invisible’. Is this like Kenyon’s ‘sense realm’ as opposed to ‘reality’? Johnson continues with the same reference to Nicodemus in John 3:3 claiming we should be able to “see” the Kingdom now on earth rather than Jesus’ intention that this will be in the future at the consummation, the Second Coming. Continuing with the quote:

    …That which is unseen can be realized only through repentance. It was as though He said, ‘If you don’t change the way you perceive things, you’ll live your whole life thinking what you see in the natural is the superior reality…40

    Does this not appear to be expressing the same basic New Age, Eastern and Unity doctrines described above?
    ______

    It’s a rather long article (as most of mine seem to be!).

  59. Maria Billingsley says:

    Johnson is a true manipulator of the Word. It is quite clear that he is taking the most important first step to be a Christian, repentance, and creating a convoluted and twisted new age diversion. God is not the author of confusion, all Bill does is confuse.

    Though I am tempted to do more research on his teachings, I find it too dark and disturbing and above all confusing. It is in the hands of God to unravel the serpent that is coiled in him.

  60. Craig says:

    I’ve termed the Johnson version progressive repentance since his teachings imply that increasing “repentance” allows one the ability to better and better “see” the “Kingdom”.

  61. Arwen4CJ says:

    Maria,

    Since you were once involved with Hinduism, and you experienced or witnessed many of the manifestations that are occurring in hyper-charismatic land in your former way of life, I’m wondering if you saw an equivalent to gold dust, oil, feathers, and that sort of thing?

    You mentioned the counterfeit tongues, the levitating (which is also something found in wicca — so say some people I knew from college who practiced wicca), noises (assuming these are animal noises — which also occur in pagan African religions), etc.

    So I was just wondering about some of the even stranger stuff — like the gold dust and whatnot.

    Thanks. :)

    This could be useful when talking about it occurring in non-Christian religions to show the people that these are definitely demonic manifestations. I know they are — but it would be good to see that it is something occurring in other religious systems.

  62. maria billingsley says:

    I will start with one manifestation at a time here is the background on GOLD.

    Gold is very important in Hinduism. It represents” hiranyagarbha” which means “born of gold”. The Hindu god brahma is referred to as hiranyagarbha.. Other names would be “gold womb” or the “golden egg” the universal gem.

    The Chandogya Upanishad 3:19:104 relates how the world was nonexistent, became existent, and then became an egg. After a year, the egg broke open and a silver part and a gold part emerged. The silver part became the Earth and the gold part became the sky. This is the beginning of creation per Hinduism.

    Christians that find themselves drenched in gold flakes are actually partaking in idolatry. They claim it is a miracle from God but in fact it is a delusion sent by God for their disobedience to his word. Hindus do not have flakes of gold rain down on them for Satan already owns their hearts. The more Christians yearn for signs and wonders the more they will get them until they return to their first love, Christ.

  63. Craig says:

    Maria,

    I had never heard of the Hindu view on creation before. Thanks for sharing. Given that Brahma himself was “born of gold”, I’m assuming the “gold” (sky) is then superior to the “silver” (earth)?

    You wrote: “Christians that find themselves drenched in gold flakes are actually partaking in idolatry. They claim it is a miracle from God but in fact it is a delusion sent by God for their disobedience to his word. Hindus do not have flakes of gold rain down on them for Satan already owns their hearts. The more Christians yearn for signs and wonders the more they will get them until they return to their first love, Christ.

    Amen! It’s idolatry. Yes, 2 Thess 2:9-12.

  64. maria billingsley says:

    Manifestation two (all of these are one in the same): slain in the spirit, uncontrollable bodily movements, rolling on the floor and bouncing up and down, animal noises, uncontrollable laughter, screams and yells and speaking gibberish. (note: tongues are not gibberish).

    Before I tackle this I would like you to watch this video so you have a better understanding of what Hindu kundalini awakening is.

    For the record I was a sidha for three years. During that time I levitated and had out of body experiences. When I awoke this kundalini serpent in my body I experienced all the manifestations mentioned above. It was explained to me by the teachers that what I was experiencing was “stress release”.

    This manifestation took place in an isolated environment with other women who were becoming sidhas as well. The interesting part about it is out of 400 women, I was the ONLY one who experienced this. Now that I look back I believe my body was going though a spiritual battle and Satan won, but only for a short while.

    What I see now in the church is satan winning over the Christians. Their bodies are going through a spiritual battle. All of these manifestations are more delusions sent by God to those who left their first love Christ and have not believed in the love of the truth.

    II Thessalonians

  65. Craig says:

    Maria,

    I wrote a bit about Kundalini here:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/misplaced-trust-part-ii/

    ______
    Keith Jarrett, a child prodigy and an incredibly gifted pianist/improviser/composer of international renown and one of the most important and enduring artists of the 20th century and into the 21st, named one of his music publishing companies “Kundalini.” Jarrett was influenced by the esoteric Christianity[59] of G.I. Gurdjieff[60]. Jarrett memorialized him in his 1980 work of his compositions in G.I. Gurdjieff: Sacred Hymns. A title of one of Jarrett’s albums is “Fort Yawuh” which is an anagram for ‘Fourth Way’ – a term used by Gurdjieff to describe his approach to self-development. Apparently, kundalini was one of the methods Gurdjieff employed[61].

    “Kundalini rising is sometimes a violent experience, radically changing one’s subtle energy field (making it much less subtle!) and consciousness and perception of energy. The experience can be (and often is in the West) mistaken for insanity (usually acute schizophrenia) or emotional or physical breakdown on a fairly large scale.” [62]

    The above quote comes from a kundalini practitioner who provides caution to the inexperienced. One of the recognized potential and common outcomes of kundalini arousal (among many) is fatigue and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)[63]. Did Keith Jarrett practice kundalini; and, if so, could this have contributed to or even caused his bout with CFS in the mid to late ‘90s[64]? Thankfully, Jarrett has apparently been asymptomatic as he’s been very active the past decade.
    _____

    This video seems to confirm a number of the statements/conclusions I’ve made on various articles here:

    1.) That Kundalini (like contemplative/meditative prayer, or “intimacy with God”) is a vehicle towards “union with the divine” which is, in essence, increasing levels of demonic control/possession.

    2.) I note the concept of “As above, so below” about 3 minutes into the video.

    3.) This is a vehicle for “expanding one’s consciousness”, i.e. demonic possession/control.

    Do you think these are correct?

  66. maria billingsley says:

    Yes to all three…

  67. Craig says:

    Maria,

    I also noted the reference to ‘activating our latent DNA’ in the video. I wrote about that here in the Getting Down to the DNA of Spiritual DNA section:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ-part-iiib/

    I know the article is very long (and some of the info requires a knowledge of previous info); but, would you skim this section and see if you agree with the basic gist of it?

    Thanks in advance.

    My contention is that hyper-charismatics are actually ushering in the false parousia (false {2nd} coming) as mentioned in 2 Thess 2:9 (The “coming”/parousia of the lawless one).

  68. maria billingsley says:

    Bill Johnson…
    It’s the Spirit of God that makes this thing [the Bible] come alive to where we actually have the privilege of the Word becoming flesh in us again, where we become the living illustration and manifestation of what God is saying.127

    False teaching and the sign of an anti-Christ

    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2John1

    John 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Johnson empowers man as the “living illustration” and not Christ. Very twisted. :(

  69. Staci says:

    Being a big fan of Jesus Culture (there music is awesome and extremely uplifiting), but not knowing much about Bethel Church I ran across this blog post on my phone last night. And I felt a need to tell my story. I was raised in a Methodist Church which I can tell you to this day to me was an absolutely horrific experience. Maybe it was just that specific church but I found it to be very cold and unwelcoming and not to mention how the Sunday School teachers treated us, let me not generalize, I’m thinking of one particular incident with a Sunday School teacher where I was verbally assaulted by her for doing nothing more than being a kid and the incident was handled the way she would have handled an adult and utterly humiliated me. Long story short, by the time I reach the age of 13 and the final year of my having to attend Sunday School I was counting the days until I could finally say goodbye to that place. After I left the church my experience there made me run from Christianity, my thoughts were if that was what it was I wanted nothing to do with it. When I was 16 I was placed in a Pentecostal school where I spent 2 years and this was where I was taught what true Christianity was all about as well as this being the place where I finally found Jesus (or He came to find me). I have returned to the church (which is part of the school), and I must say we can’t generalize as far as pentecostalism goes, as I have found this church to be extremely calm and subdued with nothing excessively strange going on during the services. Yes, in my years of involvement with this church I have seen times of toungues being interpreted, I have seen prophesying on occasion etc. I have twice in the time that I have been back seen the Lord give a word to people in the congregation. You do hear people speaking in tongues, in fact I do as well and I absolutely adore my ability to communicate with my Lord in this way as to me its as though I have my own private little world with Him and can have private conversations with Him which are just between me and Him. I haven’t recently but in the past in this church I have seen people falling in the spirit, in fact it has happened to me. But not to the extend that it is out of control, or chaos in any way. However, I must add this, earlier this year, my husband pulled me out of a hyper-charismatic church which is near to where we live. I started attending this church which in hindsight I can now see was utterly out of control. In fact when my husband decided that he wanted the Lord back in his life, I took him to this church with me and half through praise and worship, he walked out. Afterwards he started to tell me that to him it was utter disrespect of the church and it was like a freak show. Looking back at the incident I can see what he saw, it was completely out of control, I saw people speaking in tongues which to me is normal but at the time it didn’t occur to me that it had been taken to a whole other level in this church, one image that has settled in my mind of that day was one of the woman on her knees in front of the church speaking and crying and tongues and her whole body convulsing violently. Looking back at the time it didn’t bother me, but now I find it quite frightening. When I took my husband to Harvest Christian Fellowship where we are now, I was a bit nervous because I had seen similar things happen at Harvest but I hadn’t been to Harvest in 14 years so I didn’t know what I was walking into. However, when we left that first Sunday, my husband told me that he absolutely loved Harvest, he felt completely at peace there, he found it to be warm and inviting and to this day, he loves being and going there, so does my son, who by the way I took to the first church with me as well and it freak him out too.
    Just as a last note, when I was attending the first hyper-charismatic church, my husband kept telling me that I had changed, the fights in our house were indescribable, we had been married only a few months at the time and my husband at one point during one of our worse fights brought me a suitcase and told me to pack my stuff and get out of his house. He told me that I had changed and that he wanted his wife back, I couldn’t see that I had changed and had become completely unbearable to live with.
    The problem that I have now is that I’m confused, I don’t know what to believe anymore and its not from a position that I care what people say about me, I don’t have any desire to please man. My only desire is to please God, but which way do I turn, what do I believe, what is right, what is wrong, my biggest fear right now is turning down a wrong road which leads away from Him and on judgement day hearing from Jesus “depart from Me, I never knew you”…hearing those words would break me. And I am so confused and so lost at the moment, I don’t know which way to turn. In addition my husband and I have been having dreams that I believe in some ways are prophetic or are God trying to show us something, but how do I know if it is from Him and then if it is how do I know what He’s trying to show me. Just based on the content of both our dreams I tend to wonder if the dreams were from Him. The Bibles does say that in the last days young men will see visions and old men will dream dreams. my mind is in such a mess at the moment, I just don’t know which way to turn or what to do or who to speak to. If the Lord is trying to show me something or give me an instruction, I want to jump and get to it, I don’t want to delay or keep Him waiting. There is just so much out there at the moment and we get bombarded from all sides and I just don’t know what to believe from one person or moment to the next. Sometimes I think maybe I should just leave church completely and just fellowship with the Lord on my own and shut the rest of it out. But I know that would not be the best way to go since as Christians we need support from each other and we need that fellowship with each other. Ok, this post has become waaaaaaaaay too long. Apologies. lol Oh!! by the way I am from Johannesburg South Africa

  70. Maria Billingsley says:

    Staci the Lord has blessed you with the gift of discernment. Use it and share it with others, Be strong in the Word and understand your dreams. Your confusion will lead you to clarity. It is a beautiful thing you are going through and when you realize that the Lord is with you always then you will lead others back to the truth.

  71. Staci says:

    I always thought having the gift of discernment was clarity, that I would be able to walk into a church for example and know instantly that something is very wrong, or right there. I don’t understand what I’m going through at the moment and I don’t understand how you can see that I He has blessed me with discernment lol,…this definitely doesn’t feel like discernment at all, it feels like absolute chaos and confusion my head lol and not mention fear that I am doing wrong and moving away from Him. And I definitely don’t understand what it is exactly that I’m going through. It’senough to give me headache lol

  72. Maria Billingsley says:

    Out of chaos comes clarity..be patient and you will see the fruits of what the Lord has in store for you..

    1 Corinthians 2
    New International Version (NIV)
    2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

    God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit

    6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him—
    10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

    “Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”[d]
    But we have the mind of Christ.

  73. anni says:

    Sad to say this is happening in Oklahoma as well, known as the bible belt. I was caught up in the beginnings of this, without the gold dust etc., but thankfully Jesus opened my eyes when I began to read the bible for myself again. Being ‘fed’ is easier than feeding yourself but so dangerous when you don’t check the validity within God’s word.Thank you for sharing so that those who wonder if they’re ‘Pharisees’ or ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’ will hear the truth.

  74. christina says:

    I have been to lots of spirit filled churches and lots of more fundamental churches, In all of those churches the bible as truth was upheld. The “selfishness” you describe I have not ecperienced form anyone in a spirit filled church, in fact they have always been pretty much self less without question. They strived for and acted on the principals in the word to reflect Jesus. I do not see where the idea that Jesus or the holy spirit only has a somber side came from. He commanded us to obey his commandments, to be faithful in prayer, to love one another and to rejoice in him. I have never been to the church that is referred to in here, but it seems not to be in line to say that feeling the Holy Spirit and being changed by it and the work you do through forgivenss, humbleness, and growth that the spirit brings is all a false spirit.

  75. Craig says:

    christina,

    Would that be the Bible as objective truth or relative truth?

  76. just1ofhis says:

    Christina,
    Self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit of God. Being sober minded so that we can pray is taught by Peter. We are told over and over again in the Bible NOT to be drunk or live in drunkeness.

    My experience at a charismatic church involved just the opposite behaviors as this. I also experienced a sense of “spiritual arrogance” on the part of those attending what you refer to as “spirit filled churches”. They believed themselves to be the only people who “got it”. A person who is filled with the Holy Spirit of God is first and foremost convicted of his or her sin and need for repentance, only available through the blood of Jesus Christ who came in the flesh. They are convicted of the truth, completeness and sufficiency of the Word of God who is Jesus Christ in the flesh. They strive to live, by the grace of Jesus, according to His Word. This isn’t a laundry-list for salvation, but evidence of the “born again” status of that person. We look at the fruit of that person’s life, which includes self-control.

    No one is saying that Jesus only has a somber side. Joy is also a fruit of the Spirit of God. But, that joy is not a hyped-up, emotionally charged response to a rock concert or any other such fleshy thing (think slain in the spirit, shaking on the floor); rather, it is the incredible peace which the children of God walk in daily as they come to understand His incredible love and mercy more deeply. That joy with work in the person’s heart a love for the brethren and not a sense spiritual superiority. Hint, if you are in a church and they describe denominational churches as being “dead” or claim to be any kind of “seed generation” or “new move of God”, they are arrogant and showing incredibly bad fruit.

    Every friend that I have who is caught up in charismania has shunned my family for our refusal to join in, though we are devoted to the Word of God and have done nothing but help them when they needed help and love them. Why? Because men and women, like Bill Johnson, lie to them and teach them that we are bound by a “religious spirit” and following the antichrist (because we love the Word of God!). That is bad, rotten, stinking fruit. We pray that they come out of it.

  77. Staci says:

    Craig i have to just post this comment quickly. I am part of a pentecostal church, in fact I have returned to the church which is part of the school that I attended High School and where I found the Lord. Before returning to this church I was attending a full charismatic church and experienced exactly what you’re talking about here, it was utterly out of control to the point that when I took my husband there he got up and walked out in the middle of praise and worship.
    However, I returned to the church we are now at and as I said it is a Pentecostal church, but in all the time that I have been attending this church even when I was a teenager, I used to from time to time see the same things but definitely not out of control at all, very respectful and always kept under control and dignified. And nothing has changed. I remember when I was teenager twice in 2 years I was witness to tongues being interpreted. I had seen people slain in the spirit, but nothing of the type that you would see in a full charismatic church, I never once saw people going into convulsions or any weird psychotic behaviour, I would see people slain in the spirit, get up and walk away back to their seats. Any deliverances that need to be performed were NEVER done in the middle of a service an appointment was made for that person to come in and it was quietly and respectfully behind closed doors, out of consideration for that persons dignity more than anything else, obviously a persons need for deliverance is not something a person wants broadcast to the entire church and there privacy was always respected and so done privately with only a handful of people having knowledge of it being done. Even going there now, I have heard people speaking in tongues but very quietly on their own, respectfully, I tend to believe just having their own private conversation with the Lord during worship. And just all around not making a spectacle or a freak show. Even my husband the first time I took him there, I hadn’t been back in 14 years until the day I took my husband and I must admit I was nervous to take him there because I didn’t know what to expect and what his reaction was going to be. And when we left, he told me he loved this church, he said when he walked in he felt a complete sense of peace and he felt comfortable and he said this was a church he could stick with and be happy there.
    So I tend to think that not all pentecostal churches are the same, I tend to think that some are decent and do show the fruit of self-control etc and do things the way they should be done.
    My husband actually commented on something a few Sunday’s ago, after praise and worship a lady stood up and asked our Pastor if he would pray for her, and he knelt down on the platform and quietly prayed with her and when he was done she went and sat down again, there were no fire works to speak of, no feathers falling from the ceiling or gold dust lol, she didn’t keel over and go into body racking convulsions.
    So yeah, I don’t think all pentecostal churches are the same in the way they do things, I think some are decent and can be trusted, but I also think that there are those pentecostal churches that take things waaaaaay out of hand and go completely overboard and tend to make people run from them.
    Please free tell me if I’m wrong in this observation…….

  78. Craig says:

    Staci,

    I’m a bit short on time at present; but, in looking over your comment I see nothing wrong. Yes, I do believe there are pentecostal and charismatic churches which are just fine. This is why I use the term hyper-charismatic to describe the likes of Bill Johnson, his protege’s, and his followers.

    The best thing to look for is a clear Gospel message and true exegesis of the Scriptures.

  79. Maria Billingsley says:

    What is really important is LOVE….

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    1 Corinthians 13:8

  80. Craig says:

    Maria,

    I agree with you; but, I wish to qualify that. Love is preaching the Gospel so that the lost can have eternal life. Love means telling someone they’re lost in their sins and bound for hell unless they repent. This is usually a VERY unpopular message to those of the world – and this includes many who go to our churches. And this includes many (so-called) leaders within the “Church”.

  81. just1ofhis says:

    Regarding love:

    When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me MORE than these?” (John 21:15)

    When Jesus asked this question to Peter, they were eating on the beach with Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of Zebedee (James and John, who recorded the event), and two other disciples. By my count, that is Jesus, Peter and six other disciples. Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, Jesus, more than these brothers.

    We can’t “feed the sheep” if we don’t love Jesus first and most and love His Word enough to hold it up above everything else, included each other.

    I had contact with a church that was doing incredible work feeding the poor in their community. They had a walk in, take what you need, food pantry and a once-a-month meal for anyone who wanted. Some years ago, during their first meal, they were offered free Bibles to put into gift bags that they were handing out to everyone who came. They turned down the Bibles flat, saying they didn’t want to do anything to discourage people in need from coming and getting food. I still find that extraordinary in a really disturbing way.

    On the surface, the actions of those in the church look so loving; I mean they love those poor people so much they are going to make it just as comfortable and welcoming as possible so they will come and eat. BUT, they have fed their bellies and left their souls empty, starving of the Word that could bring salvation. It is actually the deepest form of hatred I can think of: hatred toward God, hatred toward His Word who is Jesus Christ, and hatred toward those poor souls who have no one to tell them the gospel. The free meal was meaningless.

    Real love can only ever follow the Word of God.

  82. Martin says:

    Hi Craig,

    Just wanted to show my support to you and your website. Once upon a time i would have defended Bill Johnson and the Bethel thing to the ends of the earth. I now realise however, that as much as i thought that it was correct,and as much as i refused to believe it, there were some major fundamental flaws in his teaching..highlighted in “When Heaven invades earth”. To be fair it is fairly complex to understand, but once you ‘get it’ – you cannot go back!

    Keep up the good work!

  83. Craig says:

    Martin,

    Hey, good to hear from you! I hope you’re doing alright.

    Thanks for the kind words; they mean a lot!

  84. Sylvia says:

    Martin you are so right with your observance …… “once you get it – you cannot go back!”
    Many many people are having eyes opened, praise God, with sites like this which truly are invaluable.

    Craig I echo Martins’s encouragement: “Keep up the good work”.

  85. Jonathan says:

    I can really use some prayer and some help.

    It was about 4 to 4 1/2 years ago that I downloaded a podcast from Bethel Church of Bill Johnson speaking. My fiance (at the time – we are married 3+ years now) and I got really into all of Bethel and friends – Bill Johnson, Kris Vallotton, Brian & Jenn Johnson, the early Jesus Culture, the Banov’s, Rick Pino, many others – and started going to conferences whenever we could. Our pastor of many years was (and sadly still is) into Bethel and their teachings. It was a great time for me personally and while I was involved with everything I felt like my relationship with God was at its best.

    After getting married and looking more closely at budgeting and our personal finances, I started to see the discrepancies and, sadly, it wasn’t until then that I realized how much of their teaching was about MONEY. That snowballed into my researching everything that I could – from false teachings, false prophecies, false endorsements (Todd Bentley!!) and other things that should have been blatantly obvious but I was somehow blinded instead.

    This has been over two years of a revelation for me and I have had the hardest time getting back on track with God. Everything about my view of God has been tainted and I don’t know how to separate the evil garbage that I have been soaking up for so long and the truth. Where I am right now I feel hopeless and I have doubt that I never had before, and it is terrifying.

    The first order of business would be to find a body of believers to be involved in a community, but there is so much denominational drama, and I live right in central Pennsylvania where Global Awakening is tied to many, many churches locally. I have never been drawn to the reverent structure of the Catholic or Anglican church before, but because of the craziness in this movement I have been considering checking these churches out. I don’t know what to do or where to go and could use some guidance from those of you who haven’t been involved in this destructive culture or those of you who have been saved from it!

    Thank you!

  86. Craig says:

    Jonathon,

    I’m really sorry to hear of your situation; however, on the other hand, PRAISE GOD you’ve been shown the Truth! You made the statement: “Where I am right now I feel hopeless and I have doubt that I never had before, and it is terrifying.” The mere fact that your doubt is “terrifying” illustrates you are actually in the faith.

    The best thing to do – and you may well have done this – is to pray a sincere prayer asking for forgiveness for having followed these men rather than God, renouncing all the teachings by these men being used of Satan.

    Take heart. Everyone has doubts. While I’ve not read this particular book, Migliore’s Faith Seeking Understanding is said to be an excellent basic systematic theology.

    http://www.christianbook.com/understanding-introduction-christian-theology-second-edition/daniel-migliore/9780802827876/pd/82787X?product_redirect=1&Ntt=82787X&item_code=&Ntk=keywords&event=ESRCP

    Of course, it almost goes without saying that you should be in the Word of God on a consistent basis.

    I actually have some family in your general area; so I’m familiar with some of the awful stuff there. My best suggestion is to keep checking for good, bible-based churches, to include denominations. You may not agree with everything in a particular denomination, but you’ll more likely be with individuals who treasure the word over experience and man.

    Just so you know, I’ve never been directly involved in what I term hyper-charismaticism; so, my perspective is a bit different than others who have. However, I’ve been in the world a LONG time before coming to Christ a dozen years ago giving me a different perspective than others who are middle-aged.

  87. Craig says:

    I would also suggest staying away from Catholic churches. While I believe there are true believers in that ‘system’, there are too many problems within it including Mariology (deifying Mary). I don’t know as much about the Anglican church, but it seems to have gotten very liberal.

    Truly, you are much better NOT attending a church that is tainted in any way with hyper-charismaticism. How about finding other individuals, outside of a ‘church’ (church building), in order to have home based fellowship? While not as effective, maintaining fellowship over the internet as a potential option in the interim.

  88. desean says:

    Jonathan
    I was in that kind of a mess, hyper charismatic, for 18 years. I went to several churches in this community before I found one that was NOT fouled by Latter Rain/Emergent/New Age/Occultism/Seeker Driven, etc.

    I have been out for several years and God is still revealing error to me. Be gracious to yourself. It takes time to unlearn the error. God is patient and I am thankful that it was a gradual process as I am not sure I could have handled it.

    How do I pray? What was I reading “into” the Word? How was I twisting the Word because that was what I was used to? What was the truth? How do I view those I’ve left behind? How in the world was I going to get healed? The songs/music of where I came from still pulled on me. The truth became very important to me. I did not want to settle.

    My prayers are with you and your family, desean

  89. just1ofhis says:

    Jonathan, my prayers are with you also.

    And, I’ll second Craig that the most important “place” for you to be is in the Word of God.

    When God was bringing my family out of a word-of-faith, bethel-type church; we returned to a strictly Bible church for a time. I say for a time, because my children experienced some strong bullying in that church. We “home-church” now, and have just devoted ourselves to staying in the Word and trusting Jesus to do the rest. Though I long for a “church” family, God has faithfully put a few people in our paths who love and serve Him in truth. And then, there are all the awesome people who post here and blogs like it. I personally draw great encouragement from them.

    Remember that falsehood and lies NEVER originate with Jesus Christ who is the Word of God made flesh. You will find peace in simply repenting of any involvment in those lies and searching out the truth where He is really found, in His Word.

    You are walking a walk that MANY of us have walked. Take heart in that. If you stick with the Word of God and test EVERYTHING against it; the fog will clear and you will walk with confidence and peace in Jesus.

    .

  90. Carolyn says:

    Jonathan…I came out of the Charismatic mess as well. I’m still not in a church because of health issues but I do find a lot of good Bible based teaching on the internet.

    Check out this website for help. It’s one of my favourites. Much good information. And stay in touch with us. Feel free to discuss specific questions you might have.

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/page2.html

    I agree with what desean said and I add…don’t panic. it takes time to unravel the entanglements of false teaching…but the Holy Spirit is your guide. Let him guide you into all truth.

  91. Carolyn says:

    It seems that I am convicted, myself, for still trying to find a guru, a never ending cycle for me. Over and over, I try to align myself with someone who has their ducks in a row and who I can trust will set me back on the straight and narrow, should I flounder in these troubling times we live in. But this is too much pressure for any one individual or ministry. For one thing, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And if we give our power to someone else other than to the Holy Spirit who has promised to lead us and guide us, (in the Word), we stand in jeopardy of being misguided. I rest my case…the Holy Spirit is the only one with all his ducks in a row…

    Here’s another guru that we shouldn’t be trusting in…

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/newsweek-obama-is-the-second-coming/article/2519111#.UP184o7iM22

    The World is about to embark on this pathway of trusting in a someone who will ultimately lead them astray. Anyone who exalts himself as the One who has all the answers or even allows himself to believe such a delusion will be someone Satan can entrust with his “final solution”. Ultimately, the Word who IS the “final authority” and the World will learn this as well, but too late. History has proved over and over that someone given to Satan’s Master Plan laid out in the Occult symbology and the Secret Doctrines is a candidate to channel “The Force” in his plan to Destroy the Truth.

    Here comes Obama…is he the the Anti-Christ or just another pre-figure? Time will tell. Certainly, I believe, that with all the signs already in progress, we are close to the “final-final solution Anti-Christ” who will be the One who divides Jerusalem, sits in the Temple of the Jews, exalts himself into the place of God and declares that he is God. What a historical milestone that will be…

    In this time when there are so many opinions on how it will all turn out, I’m thankful that we have the guidance and comfort of the Holy Spirit who has promised never to leave us or forsake us. Our eyes are seeing specific events heralding the coming of the Anti-Christ but ultimately our focus is on the hope and the reality of the Promise of the Saviour from heaven who will call us to the sky by his own appearance.
    1 Thessalonians 1:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    This will be the sight that the Holy Spirit gives those who are walking by faith, on a Narrow Path by the the light of the Word. I’m not looking for a Bridal Paradigm but rather, for a Bridegroom from Heaven.

  92. Craig says:

    Carolyn,

    THAT Newsweek is very disturbing!

  93. just1ofhis says:

    How reassuring is it then that Jesus said that even the gates of Hell will not overthrow the true church! Carolyn, one of my happiest days was the day I realized that Jesus simply was asking me to follow the truth of Him in His Word and that nothing else was needed. What wonderful freedom and joy there is in that truth!

    I agree that we are seeing an incredible preparation for the AC being put into place: corruption in the church, twisting of scripture, new age everything, and declarations galore.

    The AC will say these things about himself…

    Lets see, Kenneth Copeland’s “I Am too…”; the pope’s “Holy Father, doctrine of infallability, etc.”, Bill Johnson’s “smearing of the Christ anointing” and so on and so on. How many we have already!

    One is coming who will lift himself above all of them, and Jesus will overthrow him with the breath of His coming. Joyful, joyful that day!

  94. Carolyn says:

    Yes Just1of His…ascribing to man what only belongs to God…perfection! Yes, nothing else is needed…we should be asking the Holy Spirit first for spiritual answers and others second…not the other way around.

    Craig…that’s not the only thing that’s disturbing…I can feel the colour drain from my face when I read some of the alarming reports…from Iran having enough Bio Weapons to destroy North America, to Obama opting for a foreign policy of Isolationism…leaving Israel to defend itself…to this…the stockpiles of coffins and guillotines…

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7656086/

    But the good news is…none of this has taken God by surprise, and it hasn’t taken those who have studied prophecy (even a bit) by surprise. We’re all safe in the arms of our Saviour.

  95. Maria Billingsley says:

    Jonathan, God is calling His people away from false teachings. Once you pull up your boot straps and know that you have been called to be a soldier ,you will have to go right back in there and HELP save more out of the darkness. You have to be strong in faith! As faith is the only thing we have that is of the flesh, the rest God takes care of through his Son Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit., the comforter.

    How wonderful ! We should all celebrate your new found gift of discernment! Rejoice in the love God has for you as many will not have the opportunity to go back to their first Love. Amen Brother!

    This a joyous time in Heaven!

  96. Jonathan says:

    Thank you all for your comments and encouragement! This is definitely a new season for me, and your encouragement is something that I have been lacking not having a congregation to be a part of. I am personally ok with doubts and questions – in the past these have strengthened my walk. It has just been more difficult this time around.

    Craig – you mentioned looking for denominations in my search for a church body to be a part of. I am feeling like that is something that I definitely need – non-denominational churches are the ones that I was part of that got me caught up in this mess in the first place! Do you have any suggestions? It is difficult to find any house groups or home-based churches that do not have anything to do with the hyper-charismatic madness in my area.

    desean – “How do I pray? What was I reading “into” the Word? How was I twisting the Word because that was what I was used to? What was the truth? How do I view those I’ve left behind? How in the world was I going to get healed? The songs/music of where I came from still pulled on me. The truth became very important to me. I did not want to settle.” — that is me! That is exactly what I am going through! Even my prayer life feels tainted by these false teaching and doctrines. Thank you for your prayers!

    just1ofhis – thanks for your words of encouragement! I am in a place now where I know that I may not be able to find what my heart longs for – hopefully I won’t have to resort to an online church family, but knowing that I am not alone in this is definitely a help.

    Maria Billingsley – I agree that we need to help our brothers and sisters – though I am only beginning to get back to the basics of my relationship with Jesus… I know that we are called to spread the Gospel and I don’t want to sit around and wait while I am “dealing with stuff” internally but I feel very messed up at the moment. Thanks for your encouragement and I pray that we can shed the light on these false teachings to those closest to us that are sucked in!!!

    Is there a community/message board on here that some of you communicate through? This thread is great but I am sure isn’t the most convenient place to continue discussions that could easily spiderweb into other topics…

  97. Craig says:

    Jonathan,

    While each denomination has its own bias, some are more strict than others. So, I guess I can only say “it depends”. You could try Baptist (although they could be staunchly King James Only) or Presbyterian. I don’t wish to leave out any other denominations, because, frankly, I have little experience or knowledge of these myself. All you can do is try each one individually and see which one ‘fits’.

  98. Maria Billingsley says:

    Maybe its time for you to put the creator before the creation then your heart will be filled.

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