Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism – A Personal Testimony of Bethel’s Influence
March 28, 2011 195 Comments
[Following is a personal testimony of an individual who, under the influence of Bethel Church in Redding, CA pastored by Bill Johnson, fell into error and later was freed. The original article in four parts can be found at inerrantword.]
A Dangerous Journey – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 1)
At the beginning of 2010 I decided I wanted to get involved in a more passionate “Christianity”. I have always thought of myself as a worshipper & I craved being around others who lived & breathed worshipping the Lord.
Our church had been *pushing* & wanting revival to break out. So naturally I went home one day and decided to research about what “revival” actually was and how we could get it! Through my discoveries I found out about The Welsh Revival, Charles Finney and others.
I wanted *revival* to break out in our church. The more I read about the “amazing” things that happened in Wales, the more I wanted that to happen to us.
A member of our church had been involved in the Brownsville Revival. She told me many stories about the revival that happened there & the anointing that she received from there. Whenever she went up for prayer her body would shake & eventually she would, fall to the floor.
I was curious and started looking into the information surrounding the Brownsville revival. Like the Toronto blessing, the Brownsville revival had similar manifestations of the holy spirit, and following that was the Lakeland revival.
At that time I was initially very cautious. It didn’t seem to line up with the God of the Bible I knew and I couldn’t find anything in the scriptures to back up what was happening in these places. BUT I so desperately wanted to feel God and being among passionate Christians, I thought that this was where those sorts of people were. Some of the manifestations, including the prophetic seemed exciting and it drew me in.
Despite my initial caution & a nagging feeling of unease, I started listening to the answers that these extreme prophetic people would give to the sceptics.
Here are some of the things they said/say:
- God was revealing new things to the church today.
- God was moving in a way that was different & more relevant to the world now.
- How could these things not be of God, when people were singing his praises all within the safety of a church?
- No one can judge or dismiss the manifestations of the holy spirit, if you did then this then you were quenching the Spirit.
- David danced in the streets and people then thought he was crazy, but he was a man after the Lord’s heart. This meant that even though manifestations were similar to David’s dancing (disorderly behaviour) they were of God.
- The church at Pentecost had exactly the same spirit manifestations (like drunken behaviour…because in the Bible the mockers thought they were acting drunk therefore the early church must have had drunken spirit manifestations.
- Bill Johnson is such a kind, quietly spoken & gentle man therefore he must be a man of God.
- People from all over are coming in droves to these churches, so its has to be good.
- In the last days, God’s spirit will pour out on his people and this is that.
- No-one can judge the holy spirit. If something is done in the name of the holy spirit then it must be the holy spirit.
- Those who think that these manifestations are not of God are Pharisees (& are not open to things happening in the spirit outside of the Bible).
- People who were outside of these movements were missing out on a special anointing from the Lord.
I became convinced by these sorts of answers. I was drawn to it, I wanted to be around enthusiastic worshippers of God and I did not want to act like a so called Pharisee. It also looked exciting.
So began my journey into the world of extreme Pentecostalism, the teachings of Bill Johnson, Bethel Church, & the music of Jesus Culture.
(Little did I know how dangerous this path was going to be)…
Hidden Dangers – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 2)
I spent months immersing myself into the Bethel Church teachings and music of Jesus Culture.
I started engaging in what is called ‘soaking’. Soaking is a practice of opening your mind and spirit to the “lord” whilst listening to loungey “Christian” music. I gave up reading my Bible…because I wanted new revelations from God. I had heard mentioned in so many sermons (including writings by Rick Joyner) that the Bible was being superseded by new revelations. The people who only read the Bible were called “wordies” and these people (the “wordies”) were setting themselves up against the new spiritual move of “god”. The new spiritual movement was more important than the information in the Bible. So I gave my regular bible reading and embraced soaking.
I wanted to encounter God. I wanted something dramatic to happen, something exciting. During my soaking I would sit quietly opening my mind and heart up to the ‘presence’. I would focus on this little warm fuzzy I had in me and eventually this feeling started to get bigger and bigger. I would have this almost ecstatic feeling on call anytime I wanted it. Eventually I would just begin to start a soaking “prayer” and this feeling would come over me immediately. It made me feel “in love” with jesus. He was no longer in a position of authority or a lord on a throne, but someone I was in love with. Someone who made me feel really good and superior. This feeling made me feel good and I wanted more of it.
My whole world started to change…in fact I was changing more than I really knew…and not for the better.
The more I engrossed myself into Bethel church’s teachings the more passionate I became about “us” being ‘right’ and those that only followed the Bible being wrong. This set me up against my husband. My husband is a fervent student of the Word of God – quiet and humble – and so he did not embrace what I was now into. I resented this and felt he was not good enough anymore. I wanted him to be more passionate and open to the spirit like I was. My main goal in life now was to save our money to get to a Bethel Conference so I could receive these special anointings. I was increasingly unhappy with my life the way it was. It was too boring, it didn’t excite me or make me outwardly more passionate for God. I wanted this anointing. I wanted to see the gold glitter and jewels falling from heaven. I wanted to move in the prophetic.
As you may have noticed…it had now become all about ME.
I wanted the new anointings. I wanted to be blessed by God. I wanted to give up my entire life and get into one of these churches…I even wanted to get my husband to move our entire family to Redding (where Bethel is based) so that I could be apart of this new move of God. All I wanted was to have these good feelings I had inside all the time. The ones that made me feel “in love” and passionate about jesus. I loved how those feelings made me feel, and I wanted more of it. No one was going to stand in my way. I knew what was right for me! I had become a loud, aggressive woman, extremely impatient and completely caught up in my own selfish ambitions.
I could not see that this was happening. I no longer had any time for my family, I needed this and that what was all that was important. I couldn’t understand that my husband wasn’t able to see the great *change* in me. I needed to be soaking and listening to my Jesus Culture music. As time went on, I started to get exceedingly rude towards my husband. I grew to be resentful towards him and completely disrespected his walk with the Lord. I wanted him to become “great” for God by receiving the new anointing. I was in a superior place with the Lord and I thought his bible studies were a waste of time.
One day however I did pick up my Bible and read it. It was during that time that I noticed something very different from what I was experiencing. I became aware of this quiet still voice. This had become very foreign to me. It was no at all like the excited, loud experiences I was having in my soaking time. It concerned me as I could not work out in my head why this gentle, quiet voice was so different from my other experiences.
Then something happened that completely opened my eyes.
At a church gathering I started chatting to the same member that I referred to in part one on my story. We started talking about all the amazing anointings and manifestations that were happening overseas, like the gold dust, glitter and jewels and how we wanted these things to start happening in our church. We longed to go and attend these conferences and receive “more”.
Then it happened. She started telling me about this amazing “anointed” man of god, who received the glory of god. His name was Joshua Mills. At his conferences were all the same manifestations…she started telling me that the glory of god was so strong on this man that he had oil that drips from his body as a show of his anointing. She was amazed by this. But for I suddenly started to realise that something wasn’t right. In fact there was something very wrong with this.
I felt very uncomfortable with this. I had been raised in the Catholic church, before I became a born again believer. When I became I believer God opened my eyes very clearly to the satanic influence in that church. The Catholic church is full of visitations from “mary”, oil dripping from their own “anointed” people, the stigmatas etc. So when my friend started telling me about Joshua Mills and his oil dripping from this body as a sign of the glory of god, alarm bells starting ringing inside my heart!
As soon as I got home I started looking up Joshua Mills to find out more about this. Joshua Mills is part of the Elijah List, a list of special “prophets”. On this list included Bill Johnson, Kim Clements, Rob De Luca, Randy Clark, Cindy Jacobs, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Rodney Howard-Brown, Carol and John Arnott and so on. Joshua Mills was a man who ran conferences and teaching classes (which you pay huge amounts of money to attend). He ran these classes so the students could receive from him and take home his special anointing. And sure enough, just as my church friend had said, Joshua Mills was producing oil from his skin, that was sign of the glory of god upon him. And if it wasn’t bad enough – he was collecting his drips of oil on rags and selling it…so that people could buy and get his special anointing from the rag.
All of a sudden, like a lightning bolt, I realised what I had got myself involved.
Uncovering the Dark Deception – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 3)
After reading about Joshua Mills on the internet I started to realise exactly what I have allowed into my spirit, my heart and my life. It hit me like nothing I have ever experienced before! I had allowed a deceiving spirit into my life. A false spirit, a false jesus.
All of a sudden everything that had been covered up was uncovered. The truth of what was my reality, my darkness was exposed. The moment of this is like nothing I can explain or give a full account of. I became completely aware of this sick, filthy darkness that had been in my life. The heaviness of the reality on my spirit was awful. To give you an idea of what this felt like I can only explain it like this: There have been times in my life when I felt a deep darkness. Times like when I had a life before Christ. Another time was when I was a born again believer but started living in the world for myself. I got involved in immorality and it was awful and caused a deep wound in my spirit then. When I realised I had allowed a deceiving spirit into my life, it was far, far greater than anything I have ever felt when I was not a believer and when I was engaging in full blown sin as a believer. The intensity and depravity of what I had done and allowed in was so great I simply just cannot explain in words. Perhaps for me I can only liken this to what is the actual reality of the dark evil spiritual realm. What it may feel like to be in alliance with satan. One thing is sure, when the Light of God and His Truth uncovers deception nothing can hide from His glory.
I came before my husband and confessed what I had allowed into mine and our lives. I explained to him exactly how I had been deceived and the burden and heaviness on my spirit that had come from allowing this false spirit in my life. I had spent so many months desperately trying to get him into this “world”. He told me that he had been praying to God intensely for Him to reveal to either one of which of us was wrong. God answers prayer and He came through for us!
When I realised what had crept into my life, all I wanted to do was get rid of this thing as fast as possible. I was absolutely desperate to get rid of this darkness, this filth! (One can only imagine what it will feel like in hell for people who will live an eternity with this constant desperation and never be able to get rid of it and get peace).
Praise the Almighty One. Earlier that year I had visited a blog about a woman who had gone through a similar experience (visit M’Kayla’s Korner), but I thought I knew better and had not heeded her warning. Thankfully I had bookmarked her blog page and that night Nick and I sat down searching through it to help us work out how to get rid of this darkness and filth that was in my spirit. God had given this woman the insight to put an extremely helpful link to getting rid of these false spirits if you had allowed them into your life (read this here). We printed off the pages and followed each step. I spent a few hours in our bedroom on my own paging through the advice and looking up bible verses.
That night I spent those hours confessing my sin and disobedience to my Lord. I confessed my lack of discernment and my own sinful willingness to expose myself to this deception and false spirit. I was able to see that after I confessed this from my heart and made a decision to never expose myself or my family to these false spirits again I was set free! The Lord Jesus took the darkness away from my life and in place the sweetness of His Spirit returned.
What is a False Jesus? – My Wife’s Deliverance from Extreme Pentecostalism (Part 4)
This false spirit, a false “jesus”, one that pleases the flesh, had been given permission by me into my life. If I knew the character of the Lord well or knew my Bible basics I would have recognized the false spirit simply by looking at what type of behaviour I was displaying when I was experiencing this “spirit”. I would have know that the fruit of the real and true Holy Spirit is peace, love, real joy, gentleness, self-control, humility, patience, kindness, faithfulness and goodness. If I had done this little test I would have clearly seen that I lacked gentleness, self-control, patience, peace and real love. This false spirit is very easily recognised when you do this little test. What I had allowed in my life brought out impatience, anger, rudeness, complete lack of Self-Control, chaos, flesh seeking madness, self ambition and selfish desires.
The next way to determine a false spirit is to do a quick comparison with what the God of the Bible is like in character versus the spirit you have opened yourself up to. Does it match up with what the Word of God says?
- Who God is (a God of order and peace)
- The order of a Church service (no chaos, no un-interpreted tongues, no more than 2 or 3 people talking in tongues and in turn (not over each other)
– That these manifestations are similar if not the same to the strange fire offered by Aaron’s sons in Exodus
- Leadership in the church (should be characterised by godly character: men of peace, self-control, peace, gentleness, quietness and of humility).
- The focus of godly teaching (is leading one towards complete reliance on Jesus Christ and not on yourself or a person or a ministry)
- People under the authority of the Lord (will display a peace, calmness, quietness and gentleness about them).
- Dying to self and dying to flesh. The entire false spirit movement is characterised by satisfying your own flesh and carnal nature. Rather than bowing down before the Lord, it is about getting as much out as you can for yourself, getting the “anointing” for yourself, getting the “manifestations” for yourself, seeing the signs and wonders for yourself. This is completely the opposite to the life of Jesus Christ, one of complete self sacrifice and in turn the life Christians are to live. We are to beat our body/flesh to make it our slaves (1 Corinthians 9:27).
- The real gospel of the Lord is unpopular. I have realised that wherever there are huge crowds and no real genuine repentance (followed by no major changes in the person’s life) then one needs to proceed with extreme caution! The way of the Lord is a narrow way, not a popular one.
- We need to be very careful of false teachers and false prophets in the end times. There are no arguments that we are in the end times, so why would we switch off our discernment buttons because we are too scared to be wrongly called Pharisees.
Will we be accountable to God for being easily deceived?
We have access to the Truth, the Word of God. The Word of God specifically warns us in detail about what deceptions there will be in the end times and yet we are still easily deceived. I was warned by earnest believers, but still chose to be lead astray. And in turn we have earnestly warned others but they choose to defile themselves with these false spirits too.
Why are we caught off guard by so called “men of god” that are bringing these false spirits into the church?
Most likely they are completely deceived themselves and are themselves, in turn, deceivers. The whole purpose of deception is that is going to come in and trick us! Why does it surprise us that this is happening in the church? Satan has had over 7,000 years to work out the best ways to deceive and cheat people, of course he is going to influence people in the church today. It is naive to think he wouldn’t. There will be no excuse for us on our day of judgement when we face our Lord and King and we realise we have been tricked into allowing false spirits into our hearts. We should know better and be prepared for this.
How do we know and recognise satan?
Satan will deceive us by enticing our flesh! It is not surprising them to find that these so called movement of the “holy spirit” are about ‘making us feel good’, ‘hyping up our emotions’ and ‘satisfying our carnal desires’ into chaos, uncontrolled disgusting behaviour and acting like mad people.
Is it any surprise why we are so desperate for the next “fix”?
This behaviour is not found anywhere in the Word of our God. The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and then they went out with their purpose, to spread the gospel NOT to run from conference to conference, meeting to meeting to get *more* of the “anointing”.
When I look back over my darkest days I can now very clearly recall some of the behaviours of these people and even friends who are in these “movements”. Their behaviour (including my own) was some of the most selfish, prideful displays I have ever seen. We were desperate to have our next “fix”, the next manifestation, the next drunken moment in the so called holy spirit, and the next “loved up” feeling. The longer I was involved the greater my drive and motivation was to fulfil my flesh and carnal desire. This selfish, flesh seeking drive is intensely stronger than the motivation to go out into the world and spread the gospel and to save lost sinners in the name of Jesus. I only cared about myself and truthfully I had no real genuine care or love for other believers during that time. It was all about me.
I also have noticed and experienced the anger of these people when they are questioned about the truth behind these movements and any mention of false spirits. It is like they turn into monsters defending their prey. There is an awful ugliness that emerges and it is quite frightening (that is why I used the word monster). I displayed this ugly behaviour myself so I speak from first hand experience…these people have sold themselves out to a false spirit, a false jesus. The devil has a hold on their heart and their desires. This false spirit makes them feel good and they will hold onto it like nothing else! Their flesh fights to hold onto it and fights against the truth being revealed.
If you are concerned about this false spirit that is creeping into the church please go to my sister in Christ’s Mkayla Kelly’s blog.
Jonathan,
I have dear Christian friends who attend a decent Baptist church in our area. I believe the key is that they don’t completely adhere to the teachings in the church but test them against scripture.
Some of the best Bible studies I have been to were at a very conservative WELS church (Wisconsin Lutheran Synod); although they have some teachings regarding communion in particular which are hard for me to stomach and my children experienced some very negative things from other children in the church. I have dear friends who still attend that church, again, not holding to certain teachings but more putting up with them. I think Missouri Synod is along those lines, though I haven’t attended one.
I have believing family who attend an Evangelical Free church, and I’ve had interaction with an Evangelical Free pastor that was wonderful. Unfortunately, the Evangelical Free church in our area is very large and has a few too many “men-pleasing” type attractions for me. My family lives out of this area and attends a much smaller church. They would be the first to tell you that there are problems within that system also, but they have stuck with it and had some good interactions with people.
There is no perfect “church” out there; but there is a perfect Word that is Jesus Christ. First, and foremost, you need to trust Him and keep yourself in His Word. As long as you remember to set Him as the Head over all you do, you will be okay. Remember, Jesus warned us that the love of most people would run cold at the end. I believe that is the root of so much of the trouble that we are seeing and experiencing; the love for the Word of God is cold or the love for the brothers in Christ is cold, either one leading to some not-so-great things.
Terrible times at the end, Paul said. But you are called to stand firm, in the truth of the Word of God and in love for your brothers and sisters in Christ. God will equip you with all that is needed for this. Just trust Him.
Craig…Obama is on fire???? Good grief…
http://todayentertainment.today.com/_news/2013/01/21/16631050-alicia-keys-changes-tune-to-obamas-on-fire-at-inaugural-ball?lite
Just 1of His…I like what you said…no perfect church out there.
Jonathan, there is also no perfect community board. The Word is the only perfect thing you can trust. There are good discussions going on, but you must be grounded in the Word first. So before you embark on a mission trip, you should just let the Word penetrate deep into your heart and allow it to make you one who can recognize the counterfeit because you know the real.
You can find message boards by just googling different topics that you’re interested in, but with that you will get a lot of arguing about “words” as Just1of His has said. So just keep your eyes open and compare everything that is said with Scripture. Don’t embrace strange teachings until you have brought them to the light of the Holy Spirit for His inspection. I repeat, the Holy Spirit is our Teacher and has promised to guide us into all Truth.
Maria,
You said ” “Once you pull up your boot straps and know that you have been called to be a soldier ,you will have to go right back in there and HELP save more out of the darkness. You have to be strong in faith! As faith is the only thing we have that is of the flesh, the rest God takes care of through his Son Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit., the comforter.””
Maria, I don’t think it’s possible to pull yourself up by your boot straps any more than we could have followed the law to save ourselves. Our faith is not our own but is the means that God ordained for salvation. If we think of faith as “ours” we then have merit before a Holy God. desean
Carolyn,
Your post on Obama is better served over here:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/misplaced-trust-part-ii/#comments
I’ll reply to it there.
Jonathon,
First of all it is a good thing you have woken up to see. Praise God. You indicated you love truth, and that is the hall of what leads out of deception. Continue to seek God. There is healing but do focus on God’s word. Test everything. Pray about where God would have you as a church home. As far as “forums” go, they come and go. Nothing to point you to and places where there used to be forums end up closing when folks who used to go do not go anymore (like deception bytes sight) or other reasons. Find places and people that you know build you up in truth. Test everything. There is not any church that is not flawed and error that is not the hypercharasmatic but also error none the less is out there. There is even error in those pointing out others errors. Effectual deception is pervasive. So seek God and test everything. Seek Him first and then “all these things shall be added unto you” so that includes what you need to continue to grow in Christ.
desean said, “Maria, I don’t think it’s possible to pull yourself up by your boot straps any more than we could have followed the law to save ourselves.”
However, we are called to stand firm in what has been done for us, through His Mighty Power working in us:
“Finally BE STRONG in the Lord and in His mighty power. PUT ON the full armor of God so that you can TAKE YOUR STAND against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore PUT ON THE FULL ARMOR OF GOD, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to STAND YOUR GROUND, and after you have done everything, TO STAND. STAND FIRM then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, YOU TAKE UP the shield of faith, with which YOU CAN EXTINGUISH all the flaming arrows of the eivl one. TAKE THE HELMET of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.” (Eph 6:10-17)
So our actions are working with our faith, making us soldiers in a battle that is unseen by the world. God’s doing (as desean pointed out), and our being urged through faith to act on His doing (as Maria pointed out). None of this makes us worthy before a Holy God, only working to be obedient to what He has called us to. I love that scripture!
Just1ofhis,
I love Eph 6:10-17 also. The commands in those verses drive me to the only One who can cause me to stand. Just as the 10 Commandments should have driven the children of Israel to God instead of viewing them as a checklist to ‘do’ or a burden of ‘have to s”. Just as our justification is through Christ alone, so is our sanctification. desean
Peacebringer, you said” “There is even error in those pointing out others errors. Effectual deception is pervasive.”
Never a truer statement. We all stumble in many ways, says the Scripture. When we are convicted, we must repent. We all have some learning to do. It’s when we come to the Scriptures with an AGENDA that big problems arise, taking scriptures out of context, isolating scriptures to fit our agenda/doctrine, excluding scriptures, being selective, etc.
Jonathon, one thing I picked up on from what you wrote was that you have identified one of the tell tale errors of the movement you were in…covetousness. That’s good. Now that the error is exposed, you can believe/rest in the truth. We serve God alone…not money. The two are in opposition.
Carolyn – you should take heart – not one of the “alarming reports” you mention is even remotely true.
Chris N,
First of all, I had already mentioned (at Jan 22, 1:09pm) that these sorts of political comments are best served over here:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/misplaced-trust-part-ii/#comments
Secondly, perhaps you can irrefutably illustrate your bold assertion with absolute proof (again, on the thread above)?
A general note: Let’s try to keep the comments pertinent to this particular thread and move other subjects to where they are most appropriate.
hie the world is being deceived in a so called revival going on and the so called prophets of our day who are moneymongers, poeple with an eye to wordly riches…….to be honest with you you hate it or love william branham lived a life of a true prophet of this age,HE ONLY HEARD FROM GOD
William Branham. You mean the guy who added a belief in the power of pyramids and astrology to the Bible to get his theology? The guy who believed in the “serpent seed” doctrine in which the serpent in the Garden of Eden mated with Eve resulting in a tainted lineage beginning with Cain and continuing to this day? The “prophet” who had propesied falsely numerous times? The teacher who taught that all denominations were the mark of the beast and that these were actually the pale horse, death, of Revelation 5:7-8 and who would be killed off by the collective white horses made up of Jesus and the ‘church’? The “prophet” who could only speak when his “angel” was present, and who, when true Bible-believing Christians prayed that if his power was of God that God would use him, was unable to ‘minister’ saying, “There are disturbing powers here; I can do nothing.”?
Branham is just as much a false prophet as many others in hyper-charismaticism.
Joseph Potifa,
The test for whether a person is a false teacher is NOT whether or not they say they have heard from God. Many people claim to have heard from God. Spiritual experiences should not be evaluated by subjective experience. We should not accept someone as speaking for the truth just because they are popular, they claimed to heal people, or signs and wonders followed them.
You have to look at the actual content of the teaching. Does it line up with Scripture (in context)? Is the gospel message the most important thing that the person teaches about? Is it the main emphasis? Etc.
It seems pretty clear to me that Branham was against Christian orthodoxy — he was against the Trinity, believed that pyramids had special powers, and all the other things that Craig listed above. Astrology is condemned by God, so God did not teach him about astrology. If Branham was getting his doctrine from a spiritual being (whether an angel or some entity who claimed to be God), then this being was not on God’s side.
Furthermore, as Craig mentioned above, when Bible-believing Christians attended one of Branham’s healing meetings, these Christians prayed to God. They prayed something like this, “If this man’s healing is from You, bless him. But if it is not, hinder him.”
Well, as it turned out, Branham claimed he could not do his healings that day. He said, “there are disturbing powers here; I can do nothing.”
This means that Branham called God a disturbing power.
Satan and his demons can counterfeit signs and wonders, including healing. One of my friends had to attend a pagan healing ceremony for a class he was in when in college. People were healed at this pagan event. However, obviously these people were not healed by God.
True prophets of God in the Old Testament always pointed people back to God. They encouraged people to repent, and they spoke God’s truth. They spoke out against astrology and other practices that God condemned.
The very fact that Branham believed in and practiced the occult (the pyramid stuff and the astrology), and the fact that he preached against the Trinity, should be enough to disqualify him as a true prophet of God.
I see I left out Branham’s denial of the Trinity. To paraphrase Kris Vallotton, who once prayed for believers to have the “anointing” of William Brahham: “That’s even a bigger one there.”
I have very much reached a bit of a turning-point in my walk with the Lord, in the sense that my eyes have been opened. Yes, we all know that there are false teacher’s out there, if you as a Christian you don’t know that, I’d be very worried about you as this should be Christianity 101. But since I live in South Africa Bethel Church is too far away from me to have any influence or concern on my life, I do listen to Jesus Culture as one of my favorite Christians artists, I find there music inspiring and uplifting and calming and I just love their music. However, I have come to a conclusion, inspite of there being false teacher’s out there I will NEVER walk away from Christ, He is my one and only Lord and Saviour. But I have a number of rules I live by when it comes to who I listen to 1. who do you say Jesus is? , if that person does not profess Jesus to be the one only son of the one true living God, I walk away. If a person in ANY way denies, the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, I walk away. 2. People who teach that Jesus went to into hell to be punished, I walk away. And finally and most importantly, if God did not say it first in His Word, I won’t believe you and I walk away. It’s that simple. The only way in my belief to spot a false teacher is spend time in the Word and with God, know the Word, live it, eat it, sleep it, breathe it every day of your life to the point that it becomes a part of you, a part of the way you think, act and react to situations. Let it be your first and only go to place, do that you will find God and truth. I question the fact that some people say that God doesn’t not speak to us anymore, why? are you prepared so much to limit the God of creation to that extent? he created the Heaven’s and the earth is the Lord of the Heaven’s and the earth, why would you consider it not possible that He could or would want to speak to us? God can do absolutely ANYTHING including speak to us. What I do take offence to is people who say God spoke to them and made it a definite fact, a verse in Deuteronomy states exactly what happens to you when you say that God said something and He didn’t. However, if you make a statement like that and precede with something like “I believe, the Lord spoke to me” or “I think, the Lord said this to me”, that still leaves room for error….which is acceptable, but don’t make it a solid fact statement, that’s looking for trouble. I go to a pentecostal church, but by no means is it extreme, our pastor very vehemently does not allow anyone to say the words “thus sayeth the Lord” leave room for error when making a statement of God spoke to you, is acceptable to him and he allows that. Prayers for people are done quietly and respectfully, praise and worship is pleasant and calming and as praise and worship should be, and yes, I have felt the Lord’s presence from time to time, but extreme, not by any means. My husband who is as conservative as they get when it comes to churches, says our church is the most peaceful sanctuary he has ever set foot in and would happily come back anytime. He loves it there and always comments to me about the sense of peace he feels when walking into our church. Deny the Trinity, I walk away. All people need to do is get into the Word, study it and live it and breathe it and you’ll be on the right track.
Yours in Christ always
God Bless you all
xxx
Staci,
Thanks for your post. I largely agree with you, but I wish to comment on this:
But since I live in South Africa Bethel Church is too far away from me to have any influence or concern on my life, I do listen to Jesus Culture as one of my favorite Christians artists, I find there music inspiring and uplifting and calming and I just love their music.
Bill Johnson (and all the hyper-charismatic false teachers) have made a concerted effort to take their false teachings all over the world. I’m pretty sure Bill Johnson’s influence is in South Africa; if it doesn’t affect you now, it may in the future via someone you know. However, Jesus Culture IS a part of Bill Johnson’s church. They look up to and adhere to Johnson and his doctrine. The music can well be uplifting, and I don’t think it’s all bad. Yet, just a little leaven leavens the whole, does it not? However, what IS alarming is Kim Walker-Smith’s “Awakening”:
Jesus Culture Awakening Kim Walker Part 1
Clearly, this is ‘another Jesus’, ‘another spirit’ [2 Cor 11:4].
and here’s Part 2:
Jesus Culture Awakening Kim Walker Part 2
It could possibly affect me at some point, I don’t know much about the church except what I’ve read here….So I have been warned and can keep an eye out. I actually don’t know anything about “Awakening” since in all honesty I’ve never really had an interest in the band members themselves and only like the music, but since I am currently studying the prominent teachers in the world and dissecting their teachings etc and paying more attention to who I trust and follow and seeing who is legit and who not, I will read the links you’ve posted, thanks
Ok, from part 2, it doesn’t feel right to me how she describes God’s reaction to Him creating her, Maybe it’s only the way I see God in my mind, but the way she describes His reacting seems a bit disrespectful to me and in a way, the way she describes it is almost as though she’s describing the reactions of some sort of a mentally disturbed idiot?? (No offence Lord, I love you). And that’s not how I see God, a God who’s reactions are according to her description is not a God I would feel the urge to respect or revere or worship in any way. The way I see God, is as a being that commands respect and worship and obedience, a God that has that type of reaction I wouldn’t take seriously, by any means. I see God the way the Bible describes Him, as Spirit, as a Loving Father, as a Just Judge etc. Fair and firm yet loving and forgiving and compassionate, but also to be taken very seriously and with all respect. Besides that I remember hearing the testimony of a woman YEARS ago who had a vision of Heaven (I wish I could remember her name or the details but it was too long ago) and I remember her describing being taken into the thrown room, but she said the light that God emits from the thrown is soooo bright you can’t look into it, but not so much the light being the reason you can’t look at Him, she said it was more being in His presence that all you can do is fall on your knees and worship she didn’t want to do anything else. Kim is describing actually seeing God….now that’s a contradiction between 2 different accounts and if she saw God’s face and she saw Him why didn’t she describe what He looks like? it’s something I would’ve done, or maybe that’s just me? another discrepancy, God put her in His heart, I do believe that God keeps all His children close His heart and even in His heart etc, but does Jesus not come to live in us when we accept Him as Lord and Saviour? not the other way around? or maybe I’m wrong about that being a discrepancy. The reason I like Jesus Culture so much is because their songs put into words what I feel in my heart for the Lord and that’s the main reason why I listen to their music and use it in worship, because it’s what’s in my heart…..and I do listen to the words very carefully and if there is anything I don’t like in it believe me it will be deleted. I do agree with you that a little leaven leavens the whole definitely. That’s why I am careful.
At this point, I’m taking everyone that I have followed and listened to up to this point and I am at the start of a major research project and getting back to basics in my walk with the Lord and I believe He’s showing me to get back to the Bible, get back to the Word and make that my basis for learning and following Him and finding the truth. But at the same time, I’m also taking each person, evangelist, pastor, etc and dissecting them piece by piece and figuring out who is legit and who is not. So that I can cut off the dead weight and only follow those with the right fruit, that are true and pure. I know this is going to be a long project, but I have no issues with doing this, since this is my eternity we’re talking about and my very soul at stake.
I will be posting updates from my research on my blog, so as not to keep my findings to myself but to educate others in the process as I go along. You’re welcome to follow my blog updates if you’d like and feel free to comment. Any input is always appreciated as far as help in finding the right direction. http://www.accordingtostaci.blogspot.com
God Bless
xxx
Staci,
You are starting on the right track with your analysis. However, keep in mind that in the OT it states that no one can see God and live. Yet Kim Walker would have us believe not only did she see God the Father, but He had a chat with her and ran around like a crazed teenager, yet she lived to tell us the story. The Apostle Paul went to the third heaven yet was told not to speak about it [2 Cor 12]. This is not an everyday experience for the believer. I’m highly doubtful that someone today would actually get caught up to the third heaven.
My suggestion is to take all the extra books and discard them. Same with the teachers you’ve been following: Take the teachings in any form and cast them into the trash. If you have any doubts about a given teacher, by all means, ask here and I’ll tell you if I know anything or can find anything through my contacts. And, I hate to say it, but it’s probably best to not listen to any of the associated music for a while. You’ll probably find out after a music ‘fast’ that it’s best to not listen to it again – that is, if it has any relation whatsoever with these false teachers.
I can appreciate that the relearning process would be difficult, so your own advice to stick with Scripture is a good one. If one is truly saved, one is Holy Spirit indwelled. He will guide you into all Truth through Scripture reading.
That was the main thing that stuck out for me…if I had just seen God face to face, unless He instructed me to keep my mouth shut, one of the main points in my testimony would be a description of what He looks like but that didn’t factor into her testimony which I found strange and then I remembered God telling Moses “no man shall see Me and live”. I remember the story of Paul being caught up into the 3rd Heaven and he said whether in the spirit or the body he didn’t know, but he saw things of which he could not speak. What this woman saw could possibly just have been a vision, who knows, honestly it was just waaaaaay to long ago for me to remember the exact details. But my point was that say hypothetically you had to be caught up into the 3rd Heaven and taken into the throne room as a human being I honestly don’t believe that you would be able to stay standing in God’s presence, you would fall on your face, your only urge would be worship etc. What she was describing was the complete antithesis to that, she was stating that she stood in God’s presence and had a chat with Him and at no point did she describe any type of emotional effect on her part, or any type of urge to worship Him or bow before Him, which my logic tells me would be a natural reaction in His presence……..or at least that would be my reaction. If I came face to face with God, there is no way I would be able to just stand and watch Him and talk to Him and not have some type of initial emotional reaction. The other thing that struck me, my mother-in-law was recently diagnosed with Cancer and it is an issue that I have been trusting the Lord with, but the God she’s described is not a God that I would trust with an issue like that as you described the God she was describing as a crazy teenager, I have a teenager and I can tell you they have the attention span of a dead fly, now if I have to come to the God she’s describing with this problem first of all I’m not gonna trust a God like that with this problem and second of all I’d be thinking that He’s gonna forget what I asked Him in about 2 seconds flat. So yeah, my main problem is how she describes God, which doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t like to believe that God is angry and cold and unforgiving etc, but what she’s describing is just too extreme on the opposite side of that for my liking.
My honest feeling on Kim is that she’s been lead astray and she honestly believes that the teaching she receives is truth. But I also think that perhaps we shouldn’t condemn her for it, I believe what we should do is start to pray for her, start to pray and ask the Lord to open her eyes, to bring things and people along her path and into her life, that are going to start making her question what she is being taught, make her start questioning these things and to open her eyes to the truth of His Word and to be able to read it in context and she what she is doing wrong. She is an AWESOME worship leader she has the most amazing voice, but I think she’s been lead down the garden path and I think she could do amazing things for the Lord’s Kingdom but only if and when she has her eyes opened and she starts to see where she is going wrong and how the teaching she receives is wrong. And I think we just need to pray for her and just pray that her eyes will be opened and that she will start to question and that will put her back on the right path.
Kim Walker is not any different from anyone else who is adhering to false teaching. She deserves nothing special, but nothing less. The point is for everyone to get away from this sort of thing. No one is condemning her. Yes, she needs prayer, but just like everyone who is caught up in false teaching, and everyone who is unsaved. In fact, I’ve no doubt there are many in hyper-charismaticism who are unsaved – whether Walker-Smith is one of those I’ve no idea. She may well be. Since the true Gospel is not, or very rarely, preached, how can individuals get saved? Instead, experiences and emotions are exalted as if they are the truth. Then, like a drug, one must reach for that ever elusive next big emotional experience.
This was most definitely not a God encounter; it was a demonic encounter. Satan comes as an angel of light [2 Cor 11:14-15]; it is quite possible that Walker-Smith herself is a willing servant of Satan [vs. 15]. Of course, we don’t know that for sure; she could well be ‘merely’ very deceived instead. But, here’s the thing: A true Holy Spirit indwelt individual should feel uneasy about an encounter like Walker-Smith just went through AND described. By that I mean that not only she herself should have been alarmed at the moment of this very disturbing encounter, but anyone in her audience should have been disturbed as she unfolded this “awakening”. This is what happens when folks are Biblically illiterate, instead listening to the teachings of these false teachers rather than the clear words of Scripture.
Even the term “Awakening” should give us pause. It is a term used in the occult and New Age/New Spirituality, not a term associated with Scripture. Christians are born from above (born again) by the Holy Spirit upon accepting the Gospel message [John 3:1-15; I Cor 15:1-8]; there are no further “awakenings”. It is my firm belief that those teaching in hyper-charismatic circles are truly teaching doctrines of demons, whether wittingly or unwittingly.
Jesus Culture may well have some good songs (I don’t know enough by them), but if they are led of deceiving spirits – as I believe they are – should we try to figure out which ones are good as worship and which aren’t? Wouldn’t all the music be tainted if the group members themselves are led by demonic spirits? In general, the music of hyper-charismaticism is performed to elicit an emotional response, which may or may not be to worship God. Most in the audience are actually looking for an emotional high, and hoping for their own ‘God encounter’, in whatever form that may take. This is not much different than what is done in Eastern mysticism.
Worse yet, the music is mostly repetitive and conducive to putting its listeners in mild to moderate hypnotic states. This makes them even more susceptible to familiar/deceiving spirits.
Craig said, “Worse yet, the music is mostly repetitive and conducive to putting its listeners in mild to moderate hypnotic states. This makes them even more susceptible to familiar/deceiving spirits.”
Our family was pressured to send my oldest son to an Acquire the Fire weekend (Ron Luce) (we resisted). These were the same people who introduced me to Kim Walker and Jesus Culture through internet videos. The clips that I saw in the marketing material for Luce and the clips of Jesus Culture both reminded me of the type of hyper-emotionalism that I witnessed in my pre-born again days in the heavy metal rock concert arenas. Self-control is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The emotional high, as Craig describes it, of the music coming out of these “ministries” (Luce, Johnson), leads to behavior that is full of bad fruit. Demonic?….absolutely.
The very fact that I was cornered and pressured to send my son to this thing was evidence of the “bad fruit”. Peer pressure is a thing of the devil, not a fruit of the Spirit of God.
Also, we don’t “acquire” the Holy Spirit of God, we are freely given the Holy Spirit of God in abundance as we put our faith in the Word of God and the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe (also a miracle of God). And that same Holy Spirit works in us a fruit of “self-control” and “gentleness” which makes these concerts alarming to us.
It’s just a hypothetical, but I often wonder if a person simply took their Bible and walked up on stage at any of these places and overtook the microphone and just started to read (book of Revelation anyone?), how long do you think the crowd would tolerate it? There were those among the Jews who were willing to believe in Jesus to a point (see John 8), but they weren’t willing to follow His teachings in truth and so be saved. They couldn’t accept the idea that they were slaves to sin and on their way to hell unless they received Him on His terms. The Jews who “believed” Jesus in verse 31 take up stones to stone Him by verse 59. This was no born-again man smeared with the “holy spirit” that they were rejecting:
John 8: 58 : Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
I found this link recently and thought is was a great resource that will be added to often. The most interesting part of the site is the A – Z list of songs and at the bottom of the lyrics an explanation of why they are rated in the way that the author has… check it out.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/worshipsongratings.html
IWTT,
Thanks for the link. As with any rating system it is inherently subjective, but I definitely respect Sandy Simpson’s opinions. I’ve only glanced down the list, but I did note one Jesus Culture song, Dance With Me, which he gives zero stars.
Arwen4CJ – of course “pyramids had special powers” – they keep the sky from collapsing on our heads, no?
/Sigh – It’s sad the amount of non-biblical teaching that has invaded the Church. Having once been sucked into this junk myself I’ll forever continue to speak out against it even if I come across as the local nut at my Church.
I recently had someone tell me they felt they could “redeem” yoga to be godly. I told them that I felt the same way about Satanism yet no one would listen to me. They laughed – but I think they got the point. How can you “redeem something for God” that was never created by Him in the first place? Christ redeemed us because he was buying us back.
I know you guys are talking about the music right now so just wanted to remind you that both Elisha and David used music to facilitate hearing from God. I’m sure there are other OT examples. Not defending “hypnotic” music – just ensuring that we don’t run off and bash all contemplative style music – if we contemplate God and His’ Word that it’s not a bad thing.
For me, it’s more about what you think on when you hear the music that makes its appropriateness the deciding factor. Some of you might be able to listen to country style worship music and feel fine – others might be reminded of all the infidelity stories that populate the genre and, therefore, find themselves unable to listen to it.
Others who were previously involved in New Age circles might find a soundtrack of crashing waves to be hypnotic and reminds them of their prior efforts to connect with spirit guides. For me, that soundtrack would remind me of a house I once lived in and the many great times I had praising God with my house mates.
Anyway – thanks for letting me comment – and before anyone responds – I’M NOT DEFENDING JESUS CULTURE so please don’t start on that ok
Shawn,
Well, for the individual who thinks yoga can be “redeemed”, it may be instructive to view its definition:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/yoga?s=t
1. a school of Hindu philosophy advocating and prescribing a course of physical and mental disciplines for attaining liberation from the material world and union of the self with the Supreme Being or ultimate principle.
2. any of the methods or disciplines prescribed, especially a series of postures and breathing exercises practiced to achieve control of the body and mind, tranquillity, etc.
3. union of the self with the Supreme Being or ultimate principle.
_____________________________________________________
You’ve also touched on something I’ve wanted to state about music. Music is a subjective experience. There are not many who enjoy music more than I do. I listen to a lot of secular music, in fact – music of all types. Yet, even in my BC (before conversion) days I didn’t ‘enhance’ my music listening experience with drugs, etc. For example, I think Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon is a great artistic statement, but it doesn’t necessitate ‘enhancement’ to enjoy it, and one doesn’t need to use it as a launching pad for some mystical experience (though certainly some do).
Music itself is not inherently good or evil. Now, the lyrics – that’s another story. What do the lyrics convey? While a given artist (secular) may have evil intent with some hard to understand lyrics (unless one is ‘in the know’), it doesn’t mean that the listener will apply the same understanding or meaning. Myself, I tend to prefer lyrics that are ambiguous, or with no real meaning. Or, those promoting socio-political causes, even if I don’t support the cause for whatever the reason.
Recently, I’ve been listening to Estonian composer Arvo Part’s In Principio (which means “In the Beginning” in Latin) which takes the first few verses of the Gospel of John, puts them into a choral/orchestral setting. Fabulous music!
http://www.allmusic.com/album/arvo-p%C3%A4rt-in-principio-mw0001877927
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Catalogue/New_Series/2000/2050.php?cat=%2FArtists%2FPart+Arvo%23%23Arvo+Part&we_start=0&lvredir=712
Yet, Part is Eastern Orthodox, and I don’t agree with some of their tenets. Does that mean I shouldn’t listen to it? Of course not. The rest of the cd is a mix of chamber music (less instruments), some orchestral without voices, etc.
Anyway, the point is that music is somewhat what you, as the listener, make of it. However, what makes Jesus Culture music dangerous is that it purports to worship the Christian God. Yet, in reality it does not.
This comment is probably not well thought out as I’m kinda busy at the moment….
Since we are talking about Jesus Culture and what NOT to listen to – What suggestions do you all have regarding worship that is sound in its doctrine? I enjoy any and all styles of music and would love some suggestions for hymns and other (maybe more modern?) sounds that aren’t heretical in nature (i.e. Jesus Culture, Brian & Jenn Johnson, IHOP, Sean Feucht, Rick Pino, etc.).
Jonathan,
See the link IWTT provided yesterday. I’d think most any tradional hymn, whether set to music or a cappella, would be fine, such as Amazing Grace. Sadly, I’d say that quite a bit of the rock-based worship tunes have distorted lyrics. Frankly, I don’t listen to much ‘worship’ music, in part for that reason.
For those interested, here’s the first piece from Part’s In Principio:
In Principio: In principio erat Verbum
In addition, here’s another piece from the same release performed by others which very closely matches the cd version:
Da Pacem Domine from ‘In Principio
Da pacem Domine means “Give peace, O Lord” and was commissioned two days after the Madrid bombing of March 11, 2004, which killed 191 and injured another 1800, as a tribute to the victims.
I much prefer that for worship over the ‘feed the flesh’ type of music played in churches passing as “worship”.
But, as I stated earlier I enjoy all kinds of music, most of it secular.
How can you “redeem something for God” that was never created by Him in the first place?
One aspect of this comes from the improper teaching of “pleading the Blood”. I know several Christian Family members that think that if they go into the session or use their stretching yoga videos with a “pleading the blood” of Jesus over it, or, even “invite Jesus into the time” that somehow that “redeems” it and makes it alright to do. Also if one believes that God is “in everything” then I would suppose that this would be Gods as well and if you are a Christian and “cover it” before you do it (yoga, etc.) then it is all right and you have redeemed it.
Interesting that they feel they need to “cover”, “redeem”, “plead the blood” over things like this. Means in their minds they know it’s wrong, I guess, but they want a way to do it without the conviction of sin for doing it?
From what I looked up on “pleading the blood” recently, and how I’ve seen the term used, it seems to me more like a magical incantation or superstitious phrase that people say in order for them to be protected. I think this is closely linked to the improper understanding of spiritual warfare. It seems to me that they think of Satan as being out to get them all the time, and if they say these words, then it is like a magical charm and protects them against Satan.
Spiritual warfare is real, but they are going about it all wrong, and their theology about it is all wrong. Christians should not feel like they have to live a life in fear, as if some demonic power is going to get them unless they say certain words.
That’s why I was curious about the origin of the term — because it always disturbed me when I heard Christians say it. It’s from hyper-charismatic belief, and it is trickling into the whole church now. People go to a conference, or they read a book, or they watch some person on TV, and they hear this phrase, and then they think they have to use it too….as if it will make them better Christians.
It disturbs me in the same way that it does when a Christian superstitiously knocks on wood. People who are into the “knock on wood” superstition panic if they don’t find a piece of wood to knock on, afraid that something bad will happen if they don’t.
Some people “plead the blood” over everything, being afraid that some demon will jump out and grab them if they don’t say it. Others probably do say it over something if they know that something could be spiritually dangerous — but then they should know better than get involved with things like yoga.
Anyway, about Christian worship music, I do believe that there are some good contemporary songs out there, but you need to be careful. I’ve noticed a trend in Christian worship the last few years — a move towards a more unbiblical way of worship and worship songs. This could have been in part because of the pastors that were at the churches.
There have always been bad worship songs in the Christian world. But along with the bad, there are also good ones. I think I’ve said this before — my friends in college had a worship band, and they would have weekly worship services where all we would do would be to sing to God. It was beautiful. I would look at the lyrics and really think about the meaning of the song as I was pouring my heart out before God, praising Him for who He is and what He’s done. It was during this time that I really understood what real worship was.
As with anything good, worship can be twisted to be ungodly — and that is what has happened with many hyper-charismatic settings. They took a beautiful concept (worshiping and praising our Lord) and flipped everything on its head, making “worship” be all about us, and what we can get from God. Then, there was further corruption — making worship all about getting some emotional high, experiencing God in a new way, seeing signs, wonders, manifestations — and trying to be spiritually connected to God in an unbiblical way.
I have a ton of worship songs on my computer. Some of the songs are better than others. My favorites are the ones that are solidly based in Scripture. If you want, I can tell you what I think of a particular artist or song….if I’ve never heard of the song or the artist, then I can look the person or song up.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to communicate with Christians who are in “hyper-Christianity”. Those who get drunk,slain,convulse etc in what they call the “anointing”. They have scripture proof for every act I consider an abomination. These people get very angry if you disagree with these manifestations to the point of being neurotic. I believe the Lord wants me to guild them ever so gently to the truth however it is met with such disdain. This forum helps me recover knowing that I am not the only one who can see the truth.
Thanks for keeping me in the loop.
Maria,
I think it’s difficult to communicate with many of the Christians in the hyper-charismatic movement because they have invented their own version of Christianity. They use some of the same terms that orthodox Christians use, but they have redefined everything, including the gospel. It’s like speaking a foreign language with them. When we talk to them (if they will even talk to us), then we have to define every term we use — find out what they mean by it, and tell them what we mean by it.
I think there may come a time when the hyper-charismatic “Christianity” is the most common. They may say that we are not even Christian — which according to their definition of it, we wouldn’t be. We may have to start calling ourselves simply followers of Jesus Christ.
Many hyper-charismatics are not willing to talk to us, or not willing to think about what we say, because they see themselves as spiritually superior to us. After all, they experience all these signs and wonders and we don’t, so they think there is something wrong with us.
If you find one that is willing to talk and listen to your point of view, then wonderful. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will show them the truth. There is always hope. God can change any heart.
Unfortunately, the Bible seems to indicate that as we get closer and closer to the end, more and more people will fall for the false teachings, because they didn’t love the truth, and they’ll run after all this error. God can and does harden hearts. That is the scary thing.
We can certainly pray for those that we know who have fallen into this stuff.
I think it’s difficult to communicate with many of the Christians in the hyper-charismatic movement because they have invented their own version of Christianity. They use some of the same terms that orthodox Christians use, but they have redefined everything, including the gospel….
This is one of the reasons I’m trying very hard to show that this is the same modus operandi of the so-called “esoteric Christianity”, which is in reality occultism. In my ‘Christ’ in the New Age article I quote from Hannah Newman’s excellent The Rainbow Swastika, which speaks of this same problem from a Jewish perspective. I only used her “Trojan horse” quote, but here’s a bit more context:
…The main tenets of NA religion are important to grasp, not least because familiar religious terms are given radically different meanings while allowing outsiders to define them as they like (for example, the Great Invocation). This ploy has allowed NA “change agents” (as they are known to insiders) to infiltrate the unsuspecting Jewish community in the Trojan Horse of semantics. They say all the “right” things, work hard in service and scholarship, win leadership positions, and only then do they set out to reshape the old concepts to fit the “new paradigm”….
Arwen4CJ says:
March 20, 2013 at 1:21 pm
From what I looked up on “pleading the blood” recently, and how I’ve seen the term used, it seems to me more like a magical incantation or superstitious phrase that people say in order for them to be protected……..
Yes, I agree, it is ALSO used in the Deliverence ministry in the way you mentioned. I too heard AND used it as such in my days with Cleansing Stream Ministry as one of the leaders in my local church and on a national level.
That’s just it, it is more like a magical incantation and is/can be used in all types of ways to “protect” or “cover” oneself.
Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” Matt 26:27-28
The “pleading the blood” routine of the wof crowd is such a degradation of the truth. We have a precious promise in the Word of God that the blood of the Lamb provides the covering for our sins, NOT the protection of our vehicles or houses or bank accounts or our walk down the street. God can and often does those things, but NOT because a person has supersticiously “plead the blood”.
I had a dear friend who read a book by a false teacher that described “pleading the blood”. She started “pleading the blood” hourly over everything. As soon as she began this routine, her life started falling apart: injuries, financial difficulties, illness, ect. I remember her dismay and her questioning at how God could allow all these things to happen to her, as she was “pleading the blood” over everything. She was doing the “works”, God was supposed to respond with “protection”. I believe God was answering her, however. My hope and prayer is that she will ultimately wake up and listen to His Word.
This is one of the ways where wof is witchcraft, or magic, or new age…whatever title you give it. It is all the same, and it is all of the type of spiritual bondage that the true Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came to set us free from.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=11959
Above is a link to a paid advertisment being run on the Elijah List today. “Can one pill make you look younger?” is the heading.
Wonder how much “blood” they had to “plead” over that?
Anything for a buck…..
Well, I’ve heard that:
one pill makes you larger
and one pill makes you small
but the ones that mother gives you don’t do anything at all
The ones that Grace Slick takes make you not blink at all:
Jefferson Airplane – White Rabbit circa 1967 or ’68.
Hyper-charismaticism is like a drug; and, while it doesn’t do the damage that hallucinogenic drugs may do, it leads some to think that the evidence of their salvation is in having some sort of mystical experience, the evidence of sanctification is in that next ‘greater’ mystical experience, and with an ever increasing need for “MORE”. Yes, just like a drug.
But, yes the EL, just like the leaders in hyper-charismaticism, are all looking for “MORE”…………………MONEY! The conferences, the books, the cds. It’s all promoting their own materialism, the love of self among their followers, and a works-based religion for all.
I think after all I’ve read over the past few days I think I’ve permanently sworn off all televangelists for life….its terrible, the Lord has REALLY opened my eyes and frightening as it is it’s also very refreshing to see clearly again.
I realize that this topic is a completely different subject to what I am about to mention, but I just really want to share this with you guys. A few days ago I saw a show on natgeo regarding exorcisms, being a pentecostal Christian I did start training in the deliverance ministry because this was how i wanted to help people (that’s another story). Anyway, in watching this documentary on Natgeo I came across Mr Bob Larson (not sure if you’ve heard of him). Anyway, having started training in the deliverance ministry and being trained decently by people who actually do know what they’re doing, watching Mr Larson was quite a horrifying experience. He calls himself “The Exorcist” I call him a disgrace to Christianity. His tactics and the way he handles things was most DEFINITELY NOT the way I was taught to say I was disgusted and horrified would be an understatement. This guy may as well paint the words “false teacher” on his forehead in bright neon letters.
Just thought I’d mention it, perhaps you guys would maybe like to go and google it and see for yourselves. This is definitely one you could sink your teeth into and definitely my first case study for my blog.
Staci,
I’m not sure where I’ve heard the name Bob Larson before. Maybe some hyper-charismatics that I knew were into him? Anyway, I don’t know much about him…I’ve just heard the name before somewhere.
I just googled him and found this:
http://www.boblarson.org/religious-demon-proofing-prayers
The description of the book on the page disgusts me. Demon proofing prayers? Seriously? (Of course the implication that comes with such a book is that if we aren’t praying these demon proofing prayers that we will be invaded by demons, perhaps even possessed).
As Christians we DON’T NEED to pray prayers to keep demons away.
So why do all these Christians think that it is necessary? Maybe because hyper-charismaticism has steeped itself deeply into the occult. Some of the people in hyper-charismaticism aren’t really saved because they’ve never heard the real gospel, or heard about the real Jesus…..so those people would be vulnerable….especially after engaging in many occult practices.
But a true Christian does not need to ward of demons — and the suggestion that we do actually plays into the occult worldview. Our trust needs to be in Jesus Christ, not in magical incantations to ward off the evil.
I do believe that spiritual warfare is real, and that demons can possess people, but I don’t think that a real Christian can be possessed. There are legitimate ministries that deal with exorcisms, but they are few and far between. In general, I am extremely cautious of any ministry that calls itself a “deliverance ministry.” There is almost always a false view of spiritual warfare that accompanies such ministries.
A book that I found helpful is called “The Kingdom Of The Occult,” which was put out by Walter Martin’s daughter. It’s a collection of Walter Martin’s apologetics on the subject of the occult. (Walter Martin wrote the book “The Kingdom Of The Cults.”) I think that Walter Martin had a pretty balanced and healthy view.
Another book that I’ve read that I think is pretty solid is called “3 Crucial Questions About Spiritual Warfare,” by Clinton E. Arnold. (He writes against things like territorial spiritual warfare, and shares his concerns with how spiritual warfare is being viewed in some Christian circles today.)
That’s just my thoughts on the subject. Others are free to share what they think.
Craig,
Wow…..that Hannah Newman article was amazing. Thanks for sharing! I also read her page that links Nazism with the occult. I’d heard it before, and it made sense….but wow……she basically says things are spiritually the same today as they were in Nazi Germany, and all that is missing is an Anti-Christ figure (she didn’t use that term, but that’s how I understood it). She links all these teachings back to gnosticism and Alice Bailey, etc. It was interesting to read it from an orthodox Jewish perspective as well.
Arwen4CJ,
Constance Cumbey was the first Christian to make those same connections back in the early ’80s. I feel certain Newman had read Cumbey’s work/s.
just1ofhis,
Agreed — many have taken the concept of Jesus shedding His blood for us, and twisted it into something very evil. This is the very gospel being attacked here.
Our trust needs to be in God, not in we speak some statement out loud. We already have everything we need in God, and He is holy, and He is sovereign. He isn’t some genie in a lamp who will give us everything we want, and He isn’t some impersonal force that we can manipulate.
The more and more I think about it, this pleading the blood superstition stinks more and more of the occult.
I was so saddened to hear about what happened to your friend. What happened to her happens to so many others — more and more people are being deceived. I can’t imagine the kind of bondage she was under — to feel that she needed to “plead the blood” hourly over everything. How scared she must have been — scared that if she didn’t do what she’d read that awful things would happen. And it turned out that they did….but only after she started this evil practice.
Yes, I’m calling it evil.
I will pray for her — I hope that her eyes are opened to the evil out there that is masquerading as Christianity. It seems that these false teachings only get worse and worse. I am concerned for future generations. What must the kids who are growing up in these kinds of churches think? They’ll never have heard the real gospel, and they’ll think that what they are learning is orthodox Christianity.
And they’ll grow up and pass it along to their kids, unless, by the grace of God, God intervenes in their lives.
Yes — it is witchcraft/magic/New Age/gnosticism/New Thought/occult, etc. It is all of those things. All of these movements all perpetuate the same lie from the Garden of Eden, and these teachings have the same demonic source, and much of the same content in them.
Yes, if only people would turn to the real Jesus, and be set free of this awful bondage!
http://www.factnet.org/bob-larson-exposed-con-man-and-daughters-fleecing-sheep
This was a link I came across last night when I started my study on Bob Larson and reading about how his meetings are conducted I was absolutely shocked that a man who calls himself a Christian can carry on in that manner and treat people in that manner. I stand by my previous statement is saying that in my eyes he is a disgrace to Christianity.
I do believe in deliverance as being something that a church needs to be trained in and experienced in, in the event of in case it is needed. Spiritual warfare is very real, the spiritual realm both good and bad is very real. But I tend to believe that same take it to a whole other level and blow it completely out of proportion. Our pastor was talking a few Sunday’s ago about people who become – for lack of a better word – “addicted” to deliverance believing every problem in their life is demonic and keep coming back to the church asking for deliverance because they think that this is the solution to all their problems or any problem that arises. And he is very blatant in saying that he will NOT indulge or enable such a person, as he believes that these people’s problems run a lot deeper than what they are experiencing in life and churches and Christian leaders who do indulge them are doing nothing more than enabling these people and rewarding this behaviour and its not helping. He told us that if he believes that deliverance is necessary he will consider it, but not until every other avenue has been attempted first to help the person.
As far as pleading the blood, I personally don’t feel the need, when I committed my life to the Lord I gave Him control of my entire life, why would I feel the need to “plead the blood’ over other little avenues of my life etc when I already once gave God control of everything in the first place. The only thing I do do is that every so often, I commit to spend an entire day with the Lord, I take communion very early in the morning in remembrance of Jesus sacrifice for me and what He did for me and to thank Him. I then walk my house and bless all the doorways and windows with olive oil and claim the space for the Lord, that this house belongs to nobody but the Lord and He and only He is welcome here and I ask the Lord’s protection over my house and to ban anything from my house that is not of Him and to not allow it to enter. That only the Holy Spirit is welcome to dwell in my house. After that I spend the day praying and fasting and in the word and spending the day with Him. i do it every so often as an act of dedicating my home and my family to Him. Funnily enough I’ve had a number of people visit me and tell me that they feel such a sense of peace in my house. I don’t feel the urge that it needs to be done everyday, out of some sense of paranoia. Just every now and again, to dedicate my home, my life and my family to Him. And in thanks to Him, since without Him I wouldn’t have all that I have.
But anyway, back to the topic at hand, we need to remember that the only one ever thrown out of Heaven was the worship leader…..lucifer was in charge of praise and worship, he was the worship leader, so his specialty is music…and remembering this we need to be cautious.
I wanted to also mention something else on the hyper-charismatic movement and the effect it had on me. I have found for the longest time, that I’ve been very insecure in my relationship with the Lord, and I believe it was Him who showed me that I became so addicted to so-called “mountain top experiences” that if I don’t have one then I start thinking He’s not there anymore, or He’s angry with me or He doesn’t love me anymore or I’ve done something wrong. I managed to reach a point where I needed a “mountain top” spiritual experience to feel secure in my relationship with Him. Which is frightening to consider that this how my mind works. Now I’m at a place where I need to learn to trust Him whether He reveals Himself to me or not, I need to learn to be secure in just spending time with Him with no expectation and learn to feel secure in the knowledge that He is there, whether I know it or not. It’s called FAITH.
Another thing I have noticed aswell, I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder in 2006 and I have found since coming back to the Lord in 2010 that my symptoms have subsided and I am a lot better in fact I have been off my medication since around this time last year not because I was trying to be clever but because my husband and I decided to start trying for a baby and I couldn’t be pregnant with that stuff coursing through my veins.
I still have my moments though every so often, but what I have found is when I spend time with the Lord I’m a lot calmer, I find myself able to handle life’s challenges a lot easier and I’m more at peace. I’m not the easiest person around and my husband will be the first to attest to that, i have little to no patience… period, but I find when I spend time with the Lord early in the morning before anything else, I’m an easier person, I have a greater sense of patience and I’m just generally calmer. And I mean “spend time with the Lord” with or without a “mountain top experience”.
Its gonna be a long process, but I’m learning and I will get there….eventually lol
Arwen4CJ, you said “Many hyper-charismatics are not willing to talk to us, or not willing to think about what we say, because they see themselves as spiritually superior to us. After all, they experience all these signs and wonders and we don’t, so they think there is something wrong with us.”
I think this is spot on – you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!
While we are on the topic of “pleading the blood,” I’d like to offer you all a discounted price on my demon protection charms – I used to sell them to Harry Potter and his ilk to protect against Voldemort – but they’ve since been upgraded to take care of demons too!
And for the incredibly low, low price of your sanity and faith in Jesus Christ, you can sign up for my monthly newsletter where I’ll indoctrinate you with this same kind of “out-of-this-world-but-you-won’t-use-your-brain-to-test-what-I’m-saying-so-it’s-all-good” crazy theology too! Wow! And if that were not good enough, let me throw in this free set of Ginsu knives – you just pay shipping and handling of $125! What a bargin!
/sigh. God rescue His Church – because we surely need it.
Staci,
You wrote, “But anyway, back to the topic at hand, we need to remember that the only one ever thrown out of Heaven was the worship leader…..lucifer was in charge of praise and worship, he was the worship leader, so his specialty is music…and remembering this we need to be cautious.”
While this is commonly thought and taught, this is not borne out in Scripture. Some have extrapolated this, but there’s no Scripture to back it up. The Scripture used to proof-text this is taken out of context.
Staci,
You wrote: “Its gonna be a long process, but I’m learning and I will get there….eventually lol”
Yes, you will! As long as you have the willingness to learn, and learn from the mistakes you and others have made, you will. And, from what you’ve written, you do. As you said it’s about faith, not in yourself, but in the One Who can bring these changes about as you submit to the Holy Spirit.
Staci,
Wow….that Bob Larson article certainly does show how he is not a Christian.
Oh, and there is another book that I read awhile ago that seems to be pretty balanced in regard to spiritual warfare — “The Invisible War,” by Chip Ingram.
Yes, we do need to know about spiritual warfare, and be able to use it if the need arises — but I also think that many Christians, especially hyper-charismatic ones, tend to overemphasize it in an unhealthy way.
I think what your pastor said is correct — it should only be considered as a last resort — not the first “treatment” to any problem. And yes, a very unhealthy view is to see demons in everything.
There was a woman who went to my graduate school (which was a seminary), and she was hyper-charismatic in background. She was convinced that her son’s drug problems and sexual immorality, and his rebellion towards her, and various other problems were all the results of demons. So, she would vigorously pray against these demons (she would name one for every sin), blaming her son’s problems entirely on demons, and not his sin. Sadly, her “spiritual warfare” never did anything.
This woman would constantly go around campus, trying to get rid of the “territorial spirits” that had invaded the campus. For her, evil spirits were responsible for all her problems on campus, and everything that annoyed her. This even included the fact that the post office had decided that students not working in the mail room were no longer allowed in the mail room. Instead, they had to open their mailboxes from the outside.
Most other students on campus would avoid her. Why? Because she wasn’t pleasant to be around. She would always talk about how demonic spirits were persecuting her, or how there were evil spirits all over the place. She never really seemed happy, and she always seemed to be afraid of demons.
When she was asked to leave the seminary, she was temporarily homeless. My roommates and I told her that she could stay with us until she found somewhere to live. She stayed with us for over a month, and during the whole time all she did was complain to us. She also tried to pit us roommates against one another by talking to each one of us in private, and saying negative things about our fellow roommates. She also said that evil spirits lived in our apartment, and not the Holy Spirit. She smoked, and she stayed with us in the winter, and she would go out to smoke in the cold without a coat on. She ended up getting sick, and then telling everyone at the hospital how it was our fault that she got sick because our apartment wasn’t clean enough. She ended up leaving after that….
Perhaps real demons were bothering her, and were following her around wherever she went….but it seems that her spiritual warfare theology, her territorial spiritual warfare practices, and her occultic spiritual practices (like pleading the blood), all opened the door for demonic oppression in her life.
I had to watch a video about deliverance ministry by a Roman Catholic named Francis MacNutt as part of a requirement at my internship site. I was not impressed at all. The DVD showed him exorcising people….and most of them were Christians. The people would supposedly manifest, making noise and convulsing, and he would exorcise the “demon,” and the person would be fine.
But I have to wonder if all this apparent demonic possession and oppression is actually created by the whole belief system. Some of these manifestations might be fake, but some might be real. If they are real, then my guess is that the person was never a Christian to begin with, since I still find it hard to believe that a true Christian can be possessed like that, having demons inside them and speak through them.
So, my question is, do you think that some of these questionable deliverance ministries are sort of a demonic spiritual business — demons manifest, pretend to be cast out (or might actually be cast out, only to return later), keeping people in constant bondage to this kind of deliverance ministry. Individuals who are caught up in this bondage are never able to really be free, and they never find any confidence in Christ?
Back to talking about Francis MacNutt — he was of the opinion that Christians should always be praying prayers of protection, at least once a day, to ward of demons. He also seemed to suggest that Christians constantly were possessed, especially if they tended to be “wounded” in any way, or were exposed to those who were “wounded.” (Such as counselors) He talked about spirits of rejection and fear or abuse or whatever. (I also read his book on the subject.)
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should be doing this, or that Christians can become possessed because they counsel people who have been wounded. I’m pretty sure that Francis MacNutt is not alone in this theology of spiritual warfare. The theology surrounding it just keeps people in constant bondage, making it so that people need to be exorcised regularly.
So, yes….it would be wonderful if Christians were educated in the correct kind of spiritual warfare — in the biblical kind. However, I think most deliverance ministries today are more like the Francis MacNutt version.
I praise God for how He is opening your eyes to some dangers within Christianity. The addiction to mountain top experiences isn’t something that only hyper-charismatics fall into — any Christian can fall for it, if we begin to think that emotional experience defines both reality and truth. That’s the real danger — when we think that our feelings are an indicator of our relationship with God.
I’m so glad to hear that God has been touching your life in such a powerful way.
Shawn,
LOL
You did a good John Shelby Spong impersonation there, probably without even meaning to
Spong really does have a newsletter that a person can subscribe to for a fee. And for an extra fee, you also get to read his responses to people’s questions. Since Spong’s theology is actually New Thought, it isn’t so different from the kind of off the wall stuff that is being spouted by hyper-charismatics — it just comes packaged a little differently.
Christianity is being attacked on several different fronts from within — we have the hyper-charismatics on one end and the extremely theologically liberals on the other, but both groups are attacking Christian orthodoxy, the gospel, Jesus Christ, and can be traced back to gnostic type doctrines, and the demons behind those doctrines.
Their tactics are different, as each group appeals to a different Christian population, making the packages look different, but inside, both packages contain the same rotten fruit. The result is the same — people are pulled away from the true God, and they start accepting occult methods and doctrines. Both belief systems open the follower up to the world of spirit guides, occult practices, and abandoning Christian orthodoxy.
The people would supposedly manifest, making noise and convulsing, and he would exorcise the “demon,” and the person would be fine.
If you look at what is happening in the churches that practice “slain in the spirit” this manner of manifestation is considered an anointing. Any Christian with just a bit of common sense would recognize this as a false spirit. All these people are being seduced by the “son of perdition” and taking on the mark of the beast. It is spreading like wild fire, no pun intended, When preachers sell the loving grace of God as a circus act we must assume very few are guided by the Holy Spirit.
The result is the individual inviting the seducing spirit which they think is the Holy Spirit and therefore the real spiritual battle begins. Paranoia for one! God has full control of Satan and will allow him to do un to us that which we invite and covet. The signs and wonders movement is covetous and very dangerous as we all know.
This video is an abomination…read the detailed caption..this is professed as an anointing.
A general note to those posting YouTube videos:
For some reason they are no longer posting. I can see the url initially in my email notifications of pending messages to the site; however, when I go to release the comment on the site, the url is totally GONE. The only way I can post these now are via html tags. See this example for instructions:
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_a_href.asp
I’m not able to post the actual instructions here as they automatically disappear as it’s read as html code. I can try by substituting ‘{‘ and ‘}’ – subsituted for the necessary left and right arrow keys respectively, the left key is just below the letter “K” and the right is below “L” on your keyboard. Remember DO NOT USE the brackets { }, but use the arrow keys in their place:
You must put quotes (” “) around the url, and you must put a space between the first ‘a’ and the following ‘href’:
{a href=”the-url-you-wish-to-use”}actual-title-of-video-or-document{/a}
Using Maria’s YouTube video as an example:
{a href=”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAWF_wzbWf4″}proof of god….slain in the spirit{/a}
To reiterate: use the left and right arrow keys in place of the brackets ( { & } ) used in the example above.
This works to hyperlink ANY url.
Craig, just to let you know, I can see the links as working, so the problem may be on your side alone, I don’t know if anybody else is experiencing the same problem as Craig though.
Maria as soon as I have a chance I would like to go and have a look at that video and soon as I have I’ll post here and tell you what I think
Arwen4CJ – As far as your question whether I think these manifestations are real or not, I don’t think there is anyway to know on an intellectual level with our own eyes or understanding. I think each case needs to be judged on his merits but more importantly in these things I think we need to rely on the discernment that the Spirit gives us and trust Him that He knows what is true and what is not. And if seeing a manifestation we need to trust what the Spirit tells us regarding that manifestation.
In my days when I watched Perry Stone, I liked him because he didn’t just preach at you, you actually learnt something. But anyway, something he said on one of his Israel tours I found very profound with regard to spiritual warfare and Christian’s having demons. He said he was listening to a professor once and this professor was asked the question as to whether a Christian can have a demon and the professor’s response was “a Christian can have whatever a Christian wants to have”.I found this answer to the question quite profound because what he was essentially saying was – if you’re gonna dabble in things you shouldn’t and you’re gonna open doors you shouldn’t and you’re gonna essentially by doing these things as a Christian invite demons into your life, then you’re gonna get what you’re asking for. Its quite that simple, even the Bible says ‘resist the devil and he will flee from you”, I think resisting the devil includes staying away from the occult and witchcraft etc. Don’t extend the invitation and you won’t have anything to worry about.
I do tend to have this belief on demons though and if you think about it it makes sense. Demon’s would love to toy with us as Christians, if we allow them the opportunity. The reason being that first of allJesus/God said that we are made in His image and they hated Him before they hated us so I would imagine they would take great pleasure in doing us harm precisely for that reason. When we’re not Christians we are living in their world and we are essentially following them whether we know it or not and we’re not a threat to them, but when we become Christians that’s a different story, and we become a threat to them, so any opportunity to harass or oppress or harm us that we give them they’re gonna take the opportunity. Because look at it this way, if they can manage to pull us back into their world in anyway a backslidden Christian becomes a trophy to them or to satan for them to brag that they took one away from God.
So there are times when the manifestations could be real and other times not so much. But as the Bible says “lean not on your own undestanding….” we need to trust the Spirit in these matters after all He knows better than we do.
I don’t want to harp on this subject too much since this is not what this particular post is about, but just back to Bob Larson for a second, when watching the documentary on NatGeo on exorcism they interviewed one woman who said that Bob had performed a deliverance on her over 50 times. That each meeting he drove another demon out of her, now when I was training in deliverance and also based on Scripture of Jesus driving out demons I don’t remember in either case being taught that we do this one at a time, over 50 times?? And then logic hit me, why is he doing it this way? because if he does it all at once, that’s one less cash cow he has because she’ll leave his ministry because she no longer needs him. So he does it to keep her coming back. And the longer he drags it out, the longer she’s gonna stick around.
It makes sense doesn’t it?
Also part of that interview with her, she said that she had been tormented by demons all her life and that from as early as she could remember they would come into her room at night and rape her. Now this reminded me of a book I read by a Pastor Tom Brown called “Devil, Demon’s and Spiritual Warfare” and he had a similar problem, he said he dealt with a woman who believed that she had blasphemed the Holy Spirit because she had been having sexual relations with demons that were tormenting her. He explained to her that first of all if she had blasphemed the Holy Spirit she wouldn’t even care because God would harden her mind and as they say turn her over to a reprobate mind and she wouldn’t care and second of all it is impossible to have sex with a demon since they do not posses a physical body which makes the act physically impossible. He concluded that she didn’t need deliverance because she didn’t have a problem besides her own insecurity, but a few years later he received a letter saying that she never came right inspite of all that he did to try and help her and had eventually jumped infront of a train and ended her own life.
This made me think of the woman on NatGeo with Bob Larson, logic hasn’t ocurred to her apparently that a demon does not possess a physical body and therefore does not have the physical ability to rape her. And I’m wondering how far is she from suicide?
Also I’ve noticed a lot of these deliverance ministers, when conducting a deliverance tend to have a conversation with the thing first, they want to know it’s name, and where it’s from, and why it’s there etc etc, Bob Larson says the reason he does this is to get the information he needs…for what? I ask with tears in my eyes and does he not know that satan and his angels have a tendency to bend the truth (I’m being sarcastic – we all know they blatantly outright lie), so what would be the point of having a conversation with it first? They’re only going to tell you half truths and whole lies. Besides that taking Jesus as an example, He never felt the need to have a pleasant chat first, the most he ever did was in the incident in Mark 5 when He asked the demon its name and it said “my name is legion, for we are many” and Jesus proceeded to show mr legion the exit. Another incident was in the temple with the man who stood up and started shouting and all Jesus said was “get out of him”. Never once did he feel the need to talk to it first. Yet these guys think that’s what needs to be done.
But just to end off as far as the woman that was in seminary with you that things always seemed to be going wrong for her…..as I said before I find when I spend time with the Lord I’m a lot calmer and more peaceful etc I also find that the days when I spend time with the Lord things that would normally go wrong go right for me and I have a good day as opposed to when I don’t spend time with Him, everything that can go wrong will and I have a miserable day. And I don’t “plead the blood” over my day, all I do is commit the day to Him, put it in His hands and ask Him to have control over every aspect of my day and to walk with me and stay with me. That simple
And I tend to think that I get better results than some hyper-charismatics pleading the blood over everything.
Staci,
The video is seen only because I used a hyperlink. Had I not done that (same with the Kim Walker videos), no one could see them.
OK, it seems the video links are showing up as usual on the site itself (what the reader sees), yet not in the administrative comments section I see (only the administrator of a site can view this section). This is only a recent phenonemon. I’ve no idea why.
So, go ahead and post the YouTube urls as usual.
But, at least everyone can see the instructions to post hyperlinks, as from my earlier comment.
Maria,
Yes, I am very aware that the “slain in the spirit” phenomenon can be caused by demonic spirits. I also think that some of the people who claim to be “slain in the spirit” are faking it, just because it’s a marker among the hyper-charismatic that someone is spiritual. When it is real, then it is caused by a demonic spirit.
These people are being seduced, yes.
Hmmmm…..yes, if someone invites a seducing spirit, whom they think is the Holy Spirit, then I could see how that spirit would come in…
Yes, that video is an abomination.
Staci,
It’s hard for me to understand how a real Christian can be possessed, but I also admit that I don’t know everything. The answer that that professor gave does satisfy me, so thank you for sharing it.
However, there is still danger with the idea that Christians can be possessed, because if a person believes that they can, and that they can invite a demon in…then what would constitute as inviting them in?
If Christians use too broad an explanation, then that just feeds the unbiblical views of spiritual warfare, in which Christians need to live in constant fear of the possibility of demons possessing them, and thus they always need to be delivered of them, constantly.
It makes sense to me that if a Christian can be possessed, then it would be only because they were actually playing with real, deadly, fire. (Such as playing with the occult — and this includes hyper-charismatic occultness, talking with demonic spirit guides aka angels of light, engaging in magic, witchcraft, participating in occult manifestations, etc.)
I still do not believe that a Christian living their normal daily life is in danger of being possessed by a demon. (In other words, I don’t think that helping others, listening to others with problems, etc. are in any danger of being possessed.) If Christians were constantly in danger of being possessed because they were living their lives as Christ wanted us to live, then the NT writers would talk about the need for us to be exorcised often. Jesus would have said something about it. There would have been some mention of it in the Bible.
I just think that some of these deliverance ministries are going about it all wrong, and that they are breeding more and more demonic encounters. This keeps these exorcists in business, and causes people to trust in this system — people feeling that they always need to get exorcised. It seems to me that it keeps people in bondage, and puts people’s focus on demons and Satan, and not on Jesus Christ. Please not that I’m not saying that I do not believe in demons — but I do think that there is a wrong focus on them in some sections of Christianity.
And yes, I know that Satan can oppress or bother Christians, but that is not the same thing as possessing people. And, yes, I do think that the demons would really enjoy pulling us away from Christ. But as long as we are in Christ, they can’t really do that…unless, we play with dangerous fire, and we abandon the real Jesus Christ in favor of the false.
Your point about Bob Larson making money was the point of the second part of my question in the last post — whether or not a spiritual warfare theology that encourages Christians to think that they are always in danger of being possessed, and that they constantly have to be exorcised, is just feeding into the system, keeping people trapped in it. To me, it appears so. It pads their pockets.
But then, that brings up another question — if Bob Larsen is a false teacher, and is actually working for the demons (knowing it or not), then can he actually exorcise them? Or, are the demons just toying here? They could pretend to leave the person — to cause the person to manifest, let everyone know that they are there — and then allow Bob to say a few words, and then go silent, but not actually leave. Thereby, they could deceive people into thinking that an exorcism took place, and get more and more people trapped into this false ministry, and away from a focus on Christ.
Please note here that I do think that there are real exorcisms, and real deliverance ministries out there that are doing things right…..but so many of them seem to be off. Thus, I think in general, these ministries seem to be sort of playgrounds for the demons to have fun with people. I think this is especially true with ministries that make deliverance a kind of show or entertainment. The ones who do it in the background, with very few people watching, tend to seem more credible to me.
I mean, putting on a seminar and inviting a lot of people to come, and to pay to be there, and then have this guy show off, and say, “everyone watch me deliver people from demons,” isn’t that humble. And it seems to only serve to pad pockets and turn the demonic activity into a main attraction.
If Bob Larson actually knows that there are 50 demons in someone, and only exorcised one per meeting, yes, that would serve to keep the money flowing….but I don’t know if a demon would actually accept the authority of a person who mocks God, regardless of whether or not that person uses the name “Jesus.”
Anyway, thank you for your responses so far. This deliverance ministry stuff has been something I’ve been wandering about ever since I saw the Francis MacNutt video….
Arwen – I agree with everything you’ve said. As we all know knowledge is power, so Christians who live in constant fear of being possessed I believe stems from a lack of knowledge and most importantly a lack in knowing the Scriptures. The Bible teaches us everything we need to know about spiritual warfare and if people know scripture well enough I don’t believe they would be living in fear as they do.
Spiritual Warfare is a subject that has always fascinated even from being a child, maybe not such a good thing since I am of the belief that if you give the enemy enough attention he’ll be happy to oblige your interest and introduce himself in someway. So I am careful to make sure that I keep a good balance.
I tend to believe that the hyper-charismatics make spiritual warfare more complicated than it needs to be. And i tend to think its simple, stay away from the things God instructed us to stay away from, which would comprise the occult in a nutshell. He never tells us to stay away from something because He wants to be a party pooper, He always has a good reason. i don’t believe that Christians can be fully possessed, provided that they do have The Holy Spirit dwelling in them for the simple reason that the Holy Spirit and a demon cannot occupy the same space. Think about it….would it make any sense that the Holy Spirit could dwell in the same place a demon? no, one of them would have to leave and considering this is God’s Spirit, I think the demon would be shown the exit if it was even hypothetically possible that it would attempt to enter the same space as the Holy Spirit, which is not possible. I do however, believe that demons can and will harass and torment Christians and oppress them and try to make life hard for us. But if we are in Christ that shouldn’t be concern, because as long as we are in Christ, what can they really do to us. “If God is for us who can be against us?”
I agree with you, Christians living their normal everyday life who live in constant fear of possession are paranoid and they feed that paranoia with a lack of knowledge and also being taught wrong by the wrong people. Jesus didn’t give us a spirit of fear……in fact He left us His peace…..the peace that passes all understanding but some Christians who live in constant fear of possession seem to have forgotten this and what does that say about their trust in their Lord and Saviour? Which is precisely why the Bible gives no mention of Christians being exorcised often because it’s not necessary. Quite frankly if a Christian believes’s that they have something dark bothering them or are being oppressed why do they feel the need to go to a deliverance minister to get rid of it, why don’t they just ask God Himself to remove it? I’m sure if their is something there, He’d be happy to take care of it for them…..or do they believe that the deliverance minister is more competent that God Himself to help them with such a problem? Which is the same thing as the Catholics going to a priest to confess and get forgiveness…who gave the priest authority to forgive sins? only God has that authority. Do you see what I’m getting at, why run to people to help you, when you have the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth who specifically instructed us to cast our cares on Him? or do some Christians believe that man is more competent than God to assist us in our problems?
I agree with you people who are constantly running for deliverance are definitely in bondage and finding demons behind every bush. And of course it would keep them in bondage and in constant fear and this keeps these so call exorcists in business, these guys feed off of the fact that they know that there are Christians out there who are always going to come running to them for help because they honestly believe that they are possessed. When in fact I believe that these people’s problems run in a different direction to deliverance and they need a different kind of help, but these so called exorcists use these people’s problems and insecurities to their advantage which to me is sick.
But you are right Christians will be oppress if they don’t keep their focus on Jesus and start toying with things that they really shouldn’t toy with and the things that God told us to stay away from. The Bible says “resist the devil and he will flee from you”….but for some reason these Christians don’t seem to be doing much resisting.
Of course it pad’s their pockets, as long as these guys have people believing that they constantly need an exorcism, they longer have an income, so all they have to do is fan the flames and keep the people coming back. Think what would happen to these guys if people woke up to the truth, stopped living in fear and stopped coming to their seminars?? they’d be out of a job.
With Bob Larson….who knows? it could be either one, either he’s a false teacher working with the demons to keep his so-called ministry going or he’s an idiot who actually believes his own lies and actually thinks he’s driving out demons and the demons are toying with him and laughing at him. And no, I don’t believe any demon would take somebody like him seriously because he’s mocking God and not operating under God’s authority and the Spirit’s leading. So I generally think, the demons are laughing at him. There’s a story in the Bible of the pharisees who saw Jesus’ disciples casting out demons and decided that they could do it too because they figured it didn’t look that hard and so they attempted it and the end of the story was that the demons sent them running away down the street minus their pants or with their pants around their ankles….because they were operating on their own authority not under Jesus. Same concept I think.
I had to go through a deliverance when I was 18, same church I’m with now my problem was manifesting in aggression especially towards my parents, I was vicious beyond anything imagineable, there was a very ugly, dark side to me. And I was 2 different people at church and at home. And when the deliverance ministry of the church saw this, they decided it was necessary. The reason I believe that the deliverance ministry in our church is legit, is because my deliverance was conducted in the middle of the week when the church was deserted and quiet and nobody was there. The only people who knew about it, was the Pastor, the man who was in charge of the deliverances and his assistant and it was conducted in a closed sound-proof room. To this day no other person in that church has any knowledge of that deliverance happening. Can you imagine what life would’ve been like for me if it had been done in public infront of the entire congregation? I would never have been able to walk into that church again with any shred of dignity and that is one of the main reasons why our church keeps it as quiet as it does, to spare the person any level of humiliation. Look you will have the rare occasion when I genuine manifestation will come up in a service, but how a church handles it tells alot. Our church for example will get that person subdued and then get them into a closed room and deal with it there, not in front of the whole congregation. Obviously the congregation will know what happened, but they won’t get to witness a blow by blow account.
Other churches will deal with it right where it is.
I don’t think genuine demons would take Bob Larson seriously if he has infact dealt with any and this poor woman is being tortured by this man and falling for his lies hook line and sinker and I actually feel so sorry for her. She obviously has a problem and all he’s doing is exploiting it for his own gain. There’s nothing humble about pride, greed or arrogance.
But as I said, if Christians especially those that live in fear of possession just got a little more knowledge on the subject and got to know the scriptures a bit better, they’d see that Spiritual Warfare isn’t as complicated as some would like to make it out to be.
I tend to live and make my decisions this way, if I don’t feel peace about something, I don’t do it. And stay away from the things God told me to stay away from…..if they stick to those 2 things, I think they’d be fine.
Staci,
It sounds like we are in agreement, then
Wow…yes, it sounds like your church handles deliverance in a sound way, and it respects the dignity of each person. Thank you for sharing your experience here.
Thank you for your very long explanations.
We are in agreement here.
I think we are most definitely in agreement
Anytime 
@Maria…i just had a look at that video…..let’s think about this logically, these people profess that in that state they are in God’s presence? am I right? Now logically what would you imagine your reaction be to begin in God’s presence? does it seem logical that you would shake and convulse and scream etc? I don’t think so. That last video reminds me of the way a genuine demon manifestation would throw somebody around. The way that woman was being thrown around she could seriously hurt herself like that and I don’t think I would be wrong in saying that God would cause your body to do something that could cause injury or end up hurting you….if He did that, then He wouldn’t be a God who loves us, because love doesn’t dictate that you physically harm the people you love? Second of all, if these people were genuinely in God’s presence as they profess to be, wouldn’t it seem logical that they would be in a state of worship as opposed to an apparent epileptic fit? Everything I saw reminds me of a demon manifestation….these people convulsing gives me the impression of some type of demonic spirit having control of them and controlling their bodies? Another thing I have to ask in regards to this….When Jesus was on earth and He encountered people, was He not anointed with the Holy Spirit? And since that was the case why are there no accounts in the Bible of people who came into contact with Jesus reacting this way being in His presence, not just with the Holy Spirit’s anointing on Him but also with Him being God in the flesh? Surely if this is how people react now to God’s presence they would have reacted the same way in Jesus’ presence? In our church I have seen people slain in the spirit, BUT it doesn’t happen often first of all and second of all, the amount of times that I have seen people in our church react in that manner amounts to exactly 0. The reaction to being slain in the spirit in our church that I have seen is the type of reaction that I would logically expect from a person being in the Lord’s presence. They are calm and peaceful and doing nothing more than basking in His presence. I am yet to hear a person scream, or laugh uncontrollably and even less going into violent convulsions. God is a God of order and the times that I have seen people falling in the Spirit it has been with a sense of order and control, the person will fall and they will be left alone, there is nobody standing over them, shouting incantations or anything of the sort. They fall, they are let down gently and left alone and when done they get up calmly and either stay where they are or go back to their seat. The instances in our church of falling in the spirit that I have seen has been nothing more than what I would expect of being in the Lord’s presence which is a state of worship and just enjoying basking in His presence and being there. No, freakshow side attractions, no circus acts, nothing of the sort. Being a Pentecostal church, I think you guys would be very shocked at how calm and peaceful and the sense of order and control in our church lol
But that video was off the charts and absolutely not normal and definitely not something I’m used to and not something that sits right with me. I’ve always had this question…..what are the blankets for? if anybody knows. Yeah, but that’s frightening.
http://staciscorner.wordpress.com/
Added a link to my new blog if you would like to come and follow mine aswell
The first few minutes of this video deals with Rob Bell. The video then moves into a synopsis of other false teachers from the hyper-charismatic camp.
Spong’s words at 6:36 are instructive here:
“The function of ‘the Christ’ is not to rescue the sinners, but to empower you and to call you to be more deeply and fully human.”
This the New Age jesus. If you’ll read the bit at the end of the newest post, the Open Challenge to Fans and Critics of Bill Johnson/Bethel Church, the Levi Dowling quotes with the ‘Christ within’ and the ‘Christ without’ concept, this is what Spong has in view here. To restate this short statement:
The function of the Christ without (the “now” Word that the WoF/hyper-charismatic folks hear through soaking, “prophetic words” (aka “impressions”), etc.) is not to rescue the sinners, but to empower you and to call you to be more deeply and fully human, by achieving your own divinity via your ‘Christ within’. To be “fully human” is to be god-like, for we all have the seed of god within (divine spark, spiritual DNA, etc.) just waiting to be activated, then fully actualized. We are not inherently sinful; we must reject these ‘error-thoughts’ and listen to the ‘god-thoughts’ (of the ‘Christ without’) – keep a positive mental attitude (since thoughts/words have power).
@staci… If anyone is falling your church has been infected with the false spirit. It starts out innocently with one or two ,probably women, falling to the seducing spirit, Everyone thinks they are special and have an anointing but it is false. This is how Satan gets in. This type of manifestation turns into mayhem. “Seducing”…. this is the key word for pulling Gods people away from doctrine. I am sure when these individuals get seduced your church thinks….wow what power from God! But this is not the case at all. Satan will not present himself as a foe but as a friend to God and will disguise himself as one clothed in white. So be smart and of pure doctrine for that is all we have and that is what Christ told us to do.
Just a note Spong is NOT hyper-charismatic. LOL — I am laughing thinking about him in a hyper-charismatic setting. What he is, though, is an extremely theologically liberal retired Episcopalian bishop, and he has rejected all orthodox theology in favor of New Thought. He’s been tried for heresy three times. (I have no idea why they didn’t find him guilty).
He’s one of those liberal theologians who is on the Jesus Seminar. He and his buddies pulled all of Jesus’ quotes from the New Testament and then voted on whether or not they thought that He said them. They did the same with His deeds, like the miracles. They basically voted the Gospel of John out.
He is certainly a false teacher. He’s written books about how Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead. However, if directly asked, he’ll say something like this: “Jesus was raised to the meaning of God.” So, for him, Jesus’ resurrection was only a spiritual thing…or maybe a mystical thing.
He made the statement that he hopes that New Thought “Christianity,” such as the Unity Church is the future of Christianity. He hates the cross, he hates the concept of sin, and he hates the idea that we are sinners in need of a Savior. He is an enemy of substitutionary atonement.
He came to my graduate school (which was a seminary) and spoke there. I went to hear him, just to see what he’d say. I already knew that he was a false teacher, etc. His speech was identical to the one I found online that he gave to the Unity Church. I’ll look for the link now. (When he spoke to us, he didn’t praise Unity, New Thought, or Mary Baker Eddy, Christian Science, but everything else was the same.)
Here’s his Unity speech:
http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityOnlineOrg/videos?query=Spong
Here are some links to Unity so that you can see what he’s talking about. (His speech makes more sense if you read up on Unity and New Thought)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Church
http://www.unity.org/
http://www.unity.org/about-us/our-philosophy
http://www.unitydelawareohio.org/what_we_believe.html
http://www.unitydelawareohio.org/unity_basic_principles.html
http://www.unity.org/resources/articles/manifesto-time-has-come
http://www.unity.org/resources/articles/what-expect-unity-retreat
Craig is right, though — Spong’s Christ is the New Age Christ. (Actually, maybe saying occult Christ would be more accurate). Spong is a fan of the Christ within concept, and the idea that we are all little gods. For Spong, being fully human means being a god.
The funny thing is that Spong somehow thinks this occult “Christianity” makes more sense than orthodox theology. He doesn’t think that any of the miracles in the Bible are real, yet he thinks that we are all little gods running around. So, here he shows that he believes Jesus is less than his definition of fully human.
Spong isn’t the only theologically liberal aka progressive theologian who is drawn to Unity and New Thought. Bart Ehrman is another one who is into it, as Spong points out in the above youtube video.
And, yes, New Thought is directly tied to The Theosophical Society/Gnosticism….the same source that Craig has argued that hyper-charismatics draw from. So although Spong isn’t hyper-charismatic, it does show what is happening on the other end of the theological spectrum, as I said in a previous comment. The very same demons are deceiving Christians with different packaging.
Spong is also the one that I said has a newsletter that he makes people pay for, including a special subscription for seeing his answers to questions that people ask him about. He is proud of pulling people out of the church, and he calls people who have left the church and decided to follow him the Church Alumni Association.
Oh, and he labels anyone who disagrees with him a fundamentalist. He thinks people from the midwest are a bunch of country bumpkins who don’t know anything, and he is very full of himself. He lectured the former archbishop of Canterbury in a letter that he sent him.
Spong makes a big deal about arguing against a theistic God. When you understand his theology, you understand that he’s doing this because of his New Thought pantheistic beliefs.
As I’ve mentioned before, E.W. Kenyon pulled from New Thought, Unity and Christian Science (all of which have roots contemporaneous with Blavatsky’s Theosophy – which Bailey primarily pulled from, and these cults are praised by Bailey). And, Kenneth E. Hagin (shown in the video by Maria), Copeland, etc. are all from the same polluted Word of Faith stream coming from Kenyon. In the BJ, New Age Christ, III, I quote this from Unity’s own Metaphysical Bible Dictionary (I ‘stumbled’ upon a copy at a local book store) in their definition for “kingdom of God”:
…Jesus likened the kingdom to a seed because a seed has unexpressed capacities, and needs to be planted in the soil best suited, and when planted in a receptive mind it brings forth the fruits of the Spirit. The life of the word is the spiritual idea it contains.
The kingdom of heaven is attained, first, by one’s establishing in one’s mind the consciousness of the truth of Being; second, by one’s outer life to Truth.
Jesus used many commonplace things to illustrate the establishing of the kingdom of heaven in consciousness in order that we might the more easily adjust all our thoughts and acts in harmony with the ideas that make heaven.
Jesus likened heaven to a man that sowed good seed in his field, but when he slept an enemy sowed tares there (Matt. 13:24-30). The explanation is this: The field is consciousness; the good seed are our true thoughts, which are sown when we express our mind positively. The tares are the error thoughts that drift in when the consciousness is negative or ignorant…
This is a very similar concept to Dowling’s and the doctrine of B Johnson himself as shown in the Open Challenge post.
More accurately, New Thought (and all the others mentioned here) is panentheistic, which means “God is in all”, rather than pantheism (“God is all”).
Oh, I just looked at the youtube link I sent. I didn’t realize that it only listed two parts of his speech. I’ll have to look for the rest.
Here they all are (each segment is under 10 minutes):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
He’s a false teacher, so keep that in mind. He denies all the essentials of our faith. The reason? Because he has embraced Unity/New Thought/Theosophy/Gnosticism/Occult.
Note how he says he loves Unity and hopes New Thought becomes the future of Christianity. Note also how he talks about the gospel. He calls our gospel false and bad
I need to add: The “Christ without” is essentially taken from Platonism (then Middle Platonism, then Neoplatonism). For simplicity’s sake, I’ll paraphrase rather than get specific on the particulars. Each person has a ‘god within’ (nous, or “mind”), and there is also an external ‘god’. The material, physical realm is either illusory (not real) or an inferior copy of the REAL. The goal is to unite the ‘god within’ to the external ‘god’, and as this process continues the material, physical world sort of fades into the background until this ‘background’ disappears as the person becomes ‘one’ with ‘god’.
Going back to the Unity quote from earlier: What’s described is the universal “Christ consciousness” concept (promoted in “New Age”). Everyone can attain this “Christ consciousness” by employing the method Unity describes. It is, in essence, just like Platonism, with the “Christ consciousness” (external god) a substitute for the ‘Christ without’.
Craig,
Right….panentheistic rather than pantheistic….I made that mistake again. I was looking at my copy of “Kingdom Of The Cults,” by Walter Martin, which calls the god of The Theosophical Society pantheistic, so I used the term as well. You are probably more accurate.
Thanks for clarifying Kenyon as pulling from all these cults that came out of Blavatsky’s Theosophy. Sorry if I inaccurately stated points you’ve made. I was trying to say that they are all linked together, and it is this kind of stuff that Spong and other liberal theologians want to be the future of Christianity.
Those in Word of Faith and hyper-charismatism probably also hope that their version of it becomes the future of Christianity.
If these two movements merge — Spong’s liberals and hyper-charismatics, look out. Somehow, I don’t know if Spong’s ilk would put up with the circus act that goes on with hyper-charismatics, but maybe their spirit guides would tell him that it’s fine. Who knows.
Even if these two groups never officially merge, they are both on the same side in their fight against Jesus Christ and the gospel.
It’s valuable to see what these false teachings consist of, because it helps us understand the Word of Faith and the hyper-charismatic teachers better. Their teachings can be traced back to the same source material.
Most tend to use pantheism, as panentheism is a newer and less well-known term. But, I contend that most of what is termed pantheism (primarily the Eastern religions) are really panentheistic. Also, an important aspect of panentheism typically missed is the transcendent God. Most understand the immanent (god within) aspect, but the transcendent is equally important. Theosophy and Kabbalah both explicitly describe a time when all the sparks/seeds within will converge into one. Then the transcendent portion will join with this now-converged seeds/sparks making “god” whole again – the teaching is that god
suffuseddiffused a part of himself within all of creation and yearns for the time that he himself becomes whole once again.But, yes, the hyper-charismatics are different from the more ‘academic’ liberal theology of Spong, Ehrman, John Hick in that the latter group generally disbelieve in the supernatural events in Scripture. But, their Christology is mostly, if not solely, rooted in Gnosticism/Dualism/Platonism. The Emergent church is not, generally, charismatic, yet it has the same skewed Christology underlying it. IMO, these groups will merge together. There are already signs of the Emergent uniting with the hyper-charismatic.
This is because all of occultism really boils down to much the same theology; it’s just all packaged differently to appeal to this group or that group. Al Dager told me a while back to not try to find a specific occult background for any of these false teachers in the “Church” because they chose a bit of this one and a bit of that one. The more I research, the more I see he’s right. There will be variations; but, the more I research the different ones, the more clearly I see their similarities.
I don’t know about Spong’s liberals, but Rob Bell is leading people straight into eastern mysticism. One lie told in a thousand different ways…but it is still one lie….”you will be as he”.
Jesus Christ in the flesh is denied, and man becomes a “god” or a “little god” or “in touch with the divine within him” or whatever….it is all the same. The Bible is altered, added to, subtracted from, torn apart, ignored, and despised. But not forever…Come, Lord Jesus!
just1ofhis,
Yes, you’re right. Bell is part of the “Emergent church” stream which has borrowed large chunks of Eastern practices.
BTW, I’d seen quite a bit of the material on that video, but it was good to see once again how Bell got hammered by Bashim in that interview. Bell was no match for him.
Arwen4CJ,
I cannot recommend enough D.R. McConnell’s A Different Gospel, which goes into the roots of WoF, which of course discusses Kenyon and then Hagin and those disciples of Hagin. I really think you’d get a lot out of it.
It’s been a while since I’ve read it, but here’s a telling quote:
At one time I was a blind follower of E.W. Kenyon…Now with the passing of a little time and with a little more understanding I have come to realize that E.W. Kenyon has simply “baptized” many concepts from Christian Science. In so doing, he became a source for a form of “Pentecostal Christian Science,” even though Kenyon himself was not a Pentecostal. [quoted from John Kennington, "E.W. Kenyon and the Metaphysics of Christian Science," unpublished written statement, Portland, OR, July 8, 1986.] – from the first page of chapter 2 of McConnell’s book [I state it this way, rather than referencing a page number, as I have an old non-revised copy of it (Hendrickson Publishing).]
Well in all honesty….the last time I saw it happen there was in 1998 and since I’ve been back i haven’t seen it once so….I’m not too concerned at the moment
Regarding Bob Larson. He had a radio show back in the 80′s and I used to listen to it. He would be very confrontative and would have on supposed satanists and demonic possessed and so on, on the radio. He had a downfall after having and affair and plagarizing someones novel. He really pushed the Satanic Ritualistic Abuse element especially before folks like Mike Warnke were exposed as frauds. After the affairs and the plagarism/stealing his defense was that it was a doppelganger. He disappeared for awhile until coming pack in the past decade having a TV show focusing on exorcisms. The guy spent most of his radio show begging for $ and using the threat of “I could go off air tomorrow if don’t get more funding.” I wouldn’t trust the guy at all.
You know, since yesterday’s conversation, especially in regard to the video that featured Bell, Spong, and the others……and Craig’s comments about Spong, and what I know of Spong……
I can’t help but wonder if the theological liberals who deny everything, are really following Bailey’s advice. It’s clear from Spong’s speech to the Unity Church that he has read Mary Baker Eddy as well as the leaders of Unity Church. I would find it hard to believe that he hasn’t read Bailey and Blavatsky, and other Theosophy writers.
If he and other theologically liberal “Christian” scholars have read all these people, and they revere their writings, perhaps they are trying to do what Bailey suggested, but in a different way from those who are in hyper-charismatic leadership.
Maybe their goal is to strip Christians of their Christian faith, so that they can “rebuild” it, replacing the orthodox beliefs with occult/Theosophy/gnosticism/New Thought/New Age — whatever you want to call it. Many seminaries have the goal of striping people’s faith and replacing it with the faith that the seminary wants the people to have. These liberal theological scholars would be very familiar with that method.
Before I knew that Ehrman was into Unity doctrine, I’d thought of him as an atheist. He wrote a book about how nothing in the Bible is true, etc. Before I found the Unity videos about Spong, I simply thought he was just trying to deny everything in our faith because he didn’t believe in much of anything. I thought these liberal scholars were pretty much just atheists.
I honestly think that they are doing this on purpose — they want to come across as denying everything — saying that they are true scholars — just to tear down as many people’s faith as they can. Then, once a person is hooked on these liberal scholars, the scholars will introduce them to New Thought, and those attracted to this kind of liberal theology eat it up.
Really, this makes sense…because if you take the gospel out, then the Christian faith is empty. The liberals had to replace the content with something else…..and so they are. This would explain why most of the people at my seminary (most people were liberal in their theology) were embracing spirituality found in Eastern religions and the occult. They were doing what Spong and the others taught them.
The bishop in residence at my seminary (she is United Methodist), is a huge fan of Spong. She taught courses in spirituality, and she used a lot of Spong’s writings. She also invited a spiritual director to the seminary who was into the New Age and shamanism. She recommended this spiritual director to both students and professors alike……Also, something that both students and professors found hugely attractive was the Eastern kind of meditation and guided imagery.
So, it isn’t that the Spong and other theological liberals are not embracing eastern mysticism. They very much are. But it’s being introduced into their sector of the church in a very different way from how it’s being introduced in hyper-charismatic circles. Many liberals value scholarship, so Spong and the others are using scholarship as the means by which to bring New Thought ideas into the church. They intellectualize everything orthodox right out of Christianity, then they replace it with occult spirituality — but people accept it because they accept the scholarship of these scholars.
Craig, I agree with what you said about occultism being packaged differently in order to appeal to different people, yet that it all is really the same teaching from the same demonic source.
Thanks for the recommendation of “A Different Gospel.” I will have to read it. It sounds very interesting.
Hmmm, perhaps the groups will merge together once they have appealed to enough people in each group to see a common bond. Then the leaders of each groups would have to sit down and discuss things, and they’d have to accept one another. If they are both working towards the same goal, and they each have spirit guides, then it could work. I think any merging might be a ways off yet, though….though who knows what might be going on. As far as the Emergent Church merging with hyper-charismatics, that may very well be further along.
At some point I think those in all these groups will accept the Anti-Christ, and then they really will merge into the one world religion.
Staci,
I never once witnessed anyone “slain in the spirit” in the wof church we were attending. What we were exposed to was a celebration of the “ministry” of Kenneth Hagin. Honestly, I was shocked when I saw the clip above of KH “drunk in the spirit” for the first time. But, both of my pastors had learned directly from him, and his philosophies were theirs. But the way it was all packaged and presented had all the trimmings of “normal” church, for lack of a better word.
What we did see that set off our alarms were the following:
1. an emphasis on a literal 10% tithe (and the promise that God would prosper you, if you did)
2. Bible teaching centered on little snippets of scripture often pulled out of context. It was rare to hear an entire Bible passage read in context.
3. an extreme emphasis on how things and people looked in the church (was it appealing to folks who wandered in off the street?)
4. an out-of-control youth (the pastors called them “on-fire for ‘god’ “, but what we witnessed were teens who jumped up and down uncontrollably during the ‘worship’ part of church and had a hard time sitting still for the ‘sermon’). What we later learned is that the youth program was being “bethelized” before the church. One of the girls involved in the youth program asked after a wild night of youth “worship”, “Do the adults in the church know what we are doing?”
5. obsessive paranoia about the “words” that people would speak.
We heard people boast of their experiences being “slain in the spirit”, as we heard them boast of their “gifts”, but we never witnessed “slain in the spirit” (or “drunk in the spirit” for that matter) in the church.
That said, “slain in the spirit” or “drunk in the spirit” are things that line up with eastern mystic practices and not with anything in the Word of God. They have been borrrowed from pagan religious systems and just had “Christianese” added to them. Scripture does not back them up. As a matter of fact, scripture tells us that “self-control” is a fruit of the Spirit of God. I don’t know anyone who can fall to the ground in a stupor and claim “self-control”. I do believe they are “basking” in something, but it is the same “something” that pagans “bask” in when they fall down.
If you aren’t seeing it in your church, good.
I remember a story of a few women who went to watch William Branham during one of his “performances”. These were Bible-believing women who didn’t know if Branham was a real follower of Jesus Christ or not. When they got to the church they prayed and asked God to bless Branham’s work if it was of Him but to stop Branham if it wasn’t. Branham walked out on stage, paused, and announced something to the effect that there was a “spirit” present that was going to keep him from doing anything that night and left. God is so faithful!
If we keep asking God what is of Him and what isn’t, He will always answer. If we ask Him to protect us from falsehood and lies, He will always do so.
“Two things I ask of you, O LORD;
do not refuse me before I die:
Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the LORD?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God.” (Proverbs 30:7-9)
Jesus’s version:
“Our Father, in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.” (Matt 6:9-13)
Arwen4CJ,
I’d say you’re right, but I think it’s actually more simple. The common denominator of all these false religions/cults/sects is demonic influence. There is enough overlap for an adherent of one of these to also accept some of the tenets of another, without necessitating actually having read the other material.
The way I see it, the one-world religion will not so much be only one with its own set of beliefs, but a universal acceptance of many of these individual aberrant belief systems. The key will be that each one accept the other as equally valid. This, of course, will necessarily exclude Christianity which is by very definition exclusive. On the Lucis Trust website are two separate articles which speak of the “evil of separation/separateness”, which, if one reads between the lines, speaks of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
But, on the other hand, I’m not sure what to make of Islam. I cannot figure how Islam will fit into the one-world religion scenario. The best I could come up with is that radical Islam will be used as a tool to rid the world of Christians and Jews, as Judeo-Christian ideals are the real enemy of the enemy. Yet, I concede there are some holes in that theory.
just1ofhis,
The account you reference about Branham is like the following. This is a portion used in the In Exonerating Paul Cain is the ‘Aberrant Practices’ Document Invalidated? article:
…Kurt Koch relates that Branham was limited in his healing: “if my angel does not give the sign, I cannot heal.” [Koch, Kurt Occult A-B-C. 1986 (second edition), Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI; p 235]. The following, from his book, provides more indication of occultism:
Another evidence [of spiritistic (occult) healing] is the fact that…Branham [was unable] to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of [Jesus] Christ…When he [Branham] spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers in the audience – including myself – who prayed along these lines: “Lord, if this man’s powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him.” The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, “There are disturbing powers here, I can do nothing.” [ibid]
“But, on the other hand, I’m not sure what to make of Islam. I cannot figure how Islam will fit into the one-world religion scenario.”
Another possibility is that the liberal forms of Islam will meld into the “one world religion”; while the radical forms will be among the persecuted. You are already seeing a number of “churches” combining “christianity”, islam, and judaism. They aren’t “unity” churches per se, but churches that have 3 separate branches with combined common ground.
Those liberal forms of Islam will accept the same perversions that the liberal forms of “Christianity” (and the liberal forms of Judaism) do. People will either join up to that system or be shut out of it.
As Mao was coming into power in China, those who opposed him were shut out of the Chinese system. Even today, the model exists already in China. Those who support the Chinese system are in the innermost circle and treated as “citizens” with rights. Those who go against the Chinese system are outside of this circle (house churches included). They are not considered “citizens” and do not have the same rights. The government can come into their properties and take everything away from them, jail them, torchure them…you name it. It is a shadow of what the final system will look like. As Mao came into power, 100,000,000 people starved to death.
If we live to see that day, we are going to have to rely completely on God to provide our daily bread in every form that it is needed. It will be a real test of faith, and patient endurance of the saints will be required. I believe that day, in part, is how God will punish the Great Harlot church system. Those who don’t come out of her in time will be persecuted along with her.
In Rev 17 verse 3, the harlot is sitting on top of the beast with the ten horns.
“Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.”
In Rev 17 verse 16-17, the beast with the ten horns turns on the harlot and devours her.
“The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitue. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put in into their hears to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words are fulfilled.”
“Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;” (Rev 18: 4)
“Deep in America’s heartland, a Reform synagogue, a nondenominational mosque and an Episcopalian church are all putting down roots on a 37-acre tract of land that once belonged to a Jewish country club. A body of water called Hell Creek runs through the development, over which the faith groups plan to build “Heaven’s Bridge.” ”
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/140929/a-church-a-shul-and-a-mosque-try-faithful-experime/#ixzz2OexD6Gfo
They are going to build “Heaven’s Bridge” over Hell Creek….that is funny!
just1ofhis,
That was a well thought out comment! There’s no doubt the less ‘committed’ Christians, Jews, and Muslims will embrace the new religion (and some have already). Perhaps radical Islam will continue until they’ve done the damage the world elites wish; and, following that, they will be among the persecuted. Revelation does talk of actual beheadings, something that Sharia Law allows.
Craig,
You said, “the way I see it, the one-world religion will not so much be only one with its own set of beliefs, but a universal acceptance of many of these individual aberrant belief systems. The key will be that each one accept the other as equally valid. This, of course, will necessarily exclude Christianity which is by very definition exclusive.”
I’m not sure I agree. I think it is entirely probable for “Christianity” to become the “one-world” religion. We only need to look at the “Seeker friendly” movement to get an indication of how this could be possible. Even mainstream Catholicism is under pressure to encourage members to use condoms to reduce out of wedlock babies. Other Churches have already accepted gay ministers into the Church – how long before that pressure is also applied to the Catholic Church?
I think given enough time, Churches are more than capable of throwing out the pure Gospel of Christ, and the divisions/judgments it causes the unsaved, in order to continue to morph into an all-encompassing and welcoming religion.
Have you never heard that “Jesus appears to people/cultures as they need to see him? That there are many pathways to God? Buddah and Allah are other names for God?” My friend – we do not know how this will all turn out but I am deeply concerned for the Christian faith and the corruption of Biblical teachings – again, I think it is more than likely that “the Church” could be the one-world religion.
Shawn,
I think we’re saying the same thing. True Christianity will never merge into/with the one-world religion, but the tares amongst the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30) will not “stand firm till the end” (Matt 24:13). The ‘converts’ from “seeker friendly” are quite likely the tares.
Many churches have already thrown out the Gospel of Christ. That includes hyper-charismaticism and the Emergent church. The Gospel is not preached.
And, yes I’m well aware of other “jesus’” in the other religions.
Shawn,
Check out this two part article I wrote a while back:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/misplaced-trust-part-i/
I will also add “the Church” is not a building or many different buildings, as I’m sure you’ll agree. Yet, many seem to think that by going to the church building down the street they are somehow pleasing God. At the least, they are assuaging their own guilt. But, the true Church is made up of those who’ve accepted the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, and, consequently have the Holy Spirit indwelling. And, those led of the Spirit, will resist the coming one-world religion with all their heart, soul, mind and strength.
This means quite likely that they will have to stop going to the church building down the street, for these buildings will be polluted with the false gospel which pervades many already and/or there will not be enough congregants of the faithful churches to keep them running.
Craig,
Yes, I know that the common denominator between all these false religions/cults/sects is demonic influence. The demons know what they are doing.
However, sometimes the leaders in these groups do read each other’s works. I do know that Spong is a scholar, and he has read some of the things written by those in Unity. I know for sure he’s read Mary Baker Eddy, and he likes their work. A scholar who really likes a piece of writing is likely to read more coming from that school of thought. So, I’m guessing he has read at least some of Bailey.
I suppose I went a bit far by suggesting that he’s probably following her advice, whether on purpose or not. That may or may not be the case. You’re right about the demons influencing her.
And you’re right about the one-world religion likely being a universal acceptance of many of these individual aberrant belief systems. But I do think that this will mostly consist of the stuff that looks like what we’ve seen in people who have spirit guides — the gnosticism/occult stuff that has been in all these false movements.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that Spong absolutely did not read any of the Bailey material. My point was that he may have received it directly from the demonic realm instead. But, then again, he may have read some Bailey (or Blavatsky even).
Craig,
Right — he could have gotten it from a combination of the two. Demons are definitely in the mix. I think that’s a way that a lot of these false teachers are getting their doctrine — on the one had through experiential, such as contemplative prayer/soaking/eastern method they use to have an experience, or through occult power.
And on the other hand, they’ve read work by like-minded individuals, which further influences their ideas or teachings. This would still have its origin in demonic (because the original work was likely obtained through occult means), but we can still be influenced by the persuasion of another person, especially if we like what they have to say.
In the end, it doesn’t matter how much he got directly, and how much he got from reading other people’s work. The actual origin of the doctrine is the same — it is doctrine of demons. The same can be applied to Bill Johnson and those in the hyper-charismatic camp.
How this will all enfold in the end times we don’t know. I would expect it to continue as it has — people abandoning the gospel in the church, in favor of occult doctrine and practice. Whether or not the one world religion will embrace the Christian label, or will use a new label, we don’t know. We don’t know how organized it will actually be either. It could be that people are “allowed” to keep their own religious affiliation, as long as they adhere to the approved occult beliefs. So liberal Christianity, liberal Judaism, liberal Islam, etc. could be allowed. Orthodox Christianity and orthodox Judaism will not be tolerated, as these faiths are enemies to occult doctrine.
I firmly believe that a Christian label will be part of the one-world religion. The way I see it, this is integral to lure and keep those who’ve grown up in the West under a Christian (or quasi-Christian) culture. So, just like Cerinthus thought the “Christ Spirit” descended upon Jesus [way back at the dawn of the 2nd century], thus perverting our faith, the same will likely continue in order to appeal to those in the West.
If you don’t have a copy of Constance Cumbey’s first book (not meaning to exclude her second), The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow, you should get a copy. It can be found used on the cheap. In it she has reference to a full page article taken out in ’81 (or so, don’t recall offhand) in a number of prominent newspapers worldwide announcing “THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE”. Of course, this refers to the Antichrist (substitute Christ). In this ad is the statement that he will be known as the Imam Mahdi to Muslims, the Fifth Buddha to Buddhists, the Messiah to Jews, etc.
I’ve just added the full page advertisment “THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE” at the end of the ‘Misplaced Trust’ article:
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/misplaced-trust-part-i/
I’ve enlarged it to make the text more readable.
Hi Craig,
You said, “I think we’re saying the same thing. True Christianity will never merge into/with the one-world religion, but the tares amongst the wheat (Matthew 13:24-30) will not “stand firm till the end” (Matt 24:13). The ‘converts’ from “seeker friendly” are quite likely the tares.”
Thanks for clarifying your earlier comments – I agree 100% – the true Church will be saved, the false one will not.
Arwen4CJ, you said, “You did a good John Shelby Spong impersonation there, probably without even meaning to.”
You’re absolutely right – I’ve never heard of the guy before and after reading some of the comments about him on here, I’m not surprised – he sounds exactly like the type of person I try and avoid.
Thank you for this post. Very helpful. It explains alot about some of the movements and church’s about the feel good seekers.
I do want to share. I go to Rob DeLucas church and he is my pastor. Our church is nothing like what you explained. In fact those people that just chase the glory but don’t go deep end up leaving. I have spent more time on the floor getting my heart right and getting a level of freedom and deliverance and learning the word like never before over the last 2 years. They have guest speakers from time to time but they are ones who bring the word of the Lord and we have all changed and become more like Jesus because of The Delucas and leadership. They cause me to want to change and keep my heart pure. The Bible talks about jewels and gold and his love that is for us. It’s just not the focus its the blessing of Gods love for us. We are a church of friendship and family and unity. I have felt more love from these people than anyone before. They are selfless and truly laying down their life for us.
Hope this clears up any confusion or thoughts that HisWay is the same as all the other holy spirit lead church’s. Its clearly not and the people that came from bethel type church’s seem to leave because they don’t like how this church causes you to change and repent and be on your face getting your life right staying in the word and renewing your mind with the word each and everyday. They have taught me to have authority with the word in my life. I am so very thankful for this church. I have been set free as well from the deception and feel good fantasy life I had with the glory addicition and no real fruit or change or deliverance from all the pain in my heart until God lead me to this church and I am getting healed and delivered and becoming who God created me to be.
Erinn,
While I myself have not looked into Rob Deluca, others have. He has compared the Holy Spirit to an epidural injection (I saw the video on YouTube a while back, but it’s now “private”), and, in so doing, has reduced the third Person of the Trinity to a substance and plaything. Deluca is no better than the other hyper-charismatic false prophets in the church to include Bill Johnson of Bethel.
Erinn,
I know nothing of your church either or your pastor. I just visited the church website, and I couldn’t find any statement of faith there. Maybe I just didn’t see the link, or maybe there isn’t a link to it…..but I couldn’t check the doctrine. I haven’t seen any youtube videos of him either, so I cannot evaluate it.
What is the main thread or teaching of the teachings that you hear from the pulpit? What does your pastor often preach on? What is his emphasis? For example, if your church had holy week services, what was the message? (Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter).
If he taught about Jesus death and resurrection, what did he specifically say about these things? What do they mean for us as believers, etc. If you could summarize this in your own words, that would be helpful
What you said about the people in the congregation is what many people find in their churches, which is very comforting. It’s definitely a plus, and the type of church that most people want to belong to. The problem, though, is that it doesn’t necessarily guard against heresy. I could say the same things about the people who were in the two churches that I was a part of when they were getting theologically off. That’s why we can’t test a church’s soundness by whether or not the people are loving and care for one another and are like a family.
What you had to say was a beautiful testimony of your experience, but sadly, those attending Mormon churches could say the same thing about their congregations. I think most Christians want to have an experience like this, which is why people can be deceived into thinking that their church is doctrinally correct.
It does sound like you want to grow in your relationship with God, that you want a pure heart before Him, and that your faith in Him is genuine, and that you do not chase after signs and wonders yourself. I don’t know what all you have been set free from or your experience, and I cannot argue against your testimony, nor do I want to. I just want to caution you that many people in different sorts of churches have similar testimonies, which is why we can’t judge the soundness of a church’s doctrine by personal experience alone.
You said that you have learned to have authority with the word in your life — what do you mean by that? What does that look like? Can you give an example.